Australia test, ODI, T20 teams discussion thread

[War]

Now that Mike Hussey has suddenly retired leaving such a massive hole in Australia team not just in tests - but the limited overs formats & the john inverarity lead selection panel seemingly now trying do a god job a rekindling the dark ages of the andrew hilditch era - i have never been more concerned about Australia's immediate future.

All AUS supporters know what a big 2 years is coming up for the team in all three formats. Double Ashes in 2013, India series, 2014 t20 w-cup & 2015 world cup @ home. If the selectors don't get it right, Australia could mess up abysmally in these major series. And i don't like the signs i have seen this summer with the selection of quiney, hastings, maxwell for reasons i will articulate later.

Test Team

Given that the only part of the Australia test team that can give any confidence is the fairly impressive fast bowling depth - i don't think its possible to say what is the best Australia test team currently since what could constitute the best top 6 is a big question mark currently.

All focus now is on the double ashes & its not unfair to say the England bowlers will be fairly happy to see Australia's batting state - which essentially now on current form is a one-man top six lead by Clarke.

Hughes & Khawaja - plus Shaun Marsh & Callum Ferguson need to in 2013 finally live up to their talent that was noticed years ago. While older bats like Bailey & Watson needs to rise. There really is no other way around it - since if they don't Australia will be in an unimaginable mess in the batting department in the longer format.

Note: I'm not going to feel comfortable mentioning hyped young bats like Alex Doolan & Joe Burns as potential test candidates, unless they have domestic season performances similar to England young bats like james taylor, joe root, johnny bairstow.

The Watson dilemma

This is where the role of Watson becomes an issue. The perfect scenario for Australia obviously is for him to be the all-rounder of similar ilk to Kallis. But sadly his career is going down to path of injury plagued all-rounders like Cairns & Flintoff.

I am holding my breath that given his age, Watson may come out & say he is give up test bowling & will focus on his batting. If this scenario occurs that will alter how the top 6 could look. Firstly as a batsman only, i'd say Watson would work best opening & if he does this - Australia will obviously lose the 5-bowler luxury & thus probably wont be able to pick Lyon consistently unless Lyon becomes close to a graeme swann level off-spinner. Thus 4-quicks would have to be used more often.

But this is where smart selection will have to come for the test team & as aforementioned i have not liked the reasoning given for the selection of quiney, hastings & maxwell this season for eg.

I understand why the selectors may have been cautious about picking hughes & khawaja vs south africa. However i don't understand if they wanted a experienced head to fill the void left by watson @ # 3 at the time, how Quiney with such a mediocre first-class average jumped ahead over George Bailey & Chris Rogers.

Secondly while i accept that Hilfenhaus & Siddle were dead on their feet going into the perth test vs south africa. I wasn't too pleased with Hastings who is essentially a bits a pieces cricketer - being picked over the pure fast-bowler in Hazlewood at the time.

This kind of selection has been repeated with Maxwell for the sydney test vs sri lanka & consideration for the india tour. Maxwell's selection brings back nervous memories of foolish selection of Steve Smith in 2010/11 & Cameron White for the 2008 tour to india as a spin bowling all-rounder

For the India tour Australia should not trying complicate things & do what England did. They don't have two spinners as good as Swann/Panesar firstly - so no reason to try & find any. India's batting is vulnerable & pacers who can reverse swing the ball (which australia have) can defeat them. Historically in case the selectors forgot even when india had its legendary batsmen @ home - only teams with good quicks were able to win in india.

Lyon's role will be more of a containing one - with the hope that he at least on 4th/5th day wickets can be a threat.

ODI Team

I first started worrying about the AUS team after drubbing in england this august. And although they did well in tough conditions to beat Pakistan in UAE, Hussey's retirement leaves some holes in the middle-order - that has no obvious replacement.

Overall i'd say three obvious players who should become ODI regular with eye on the champions trophy & 2015 world cup should be finch, Henriques & ryan harris as the limited overs attack leader, since i think he should not play test cricket anymore (will explain why).

So best team:

Warner, Watson, Finch, Clarke, D Hussey, Maxwell, Henriques, Wade, Cummins, Starc, Harris

back-ups: Ferguson, M Marsh, Johnson, Pattinson

close outsiders: Bailey, S Marsh, Hughes, Christian, Bollinger, O'Keefe, Hastings, McKay

The Ryan Harris dilemma

After observing the Australia's quicks this season & knowing what they have in reserve, for reasons i mentioned in this thread - http://www.planetcricket.org/forums/cricket-discussion/how-should-australia-use-ryan-harris-future-81577.html - i think its time the Australia selectors stop using/considering Harris as test match option.

Siddle, Pattinson, Cummins, Starc, Johnson, Hazlewood, Hilfenhaus, Bird, Cutting is solid 9 options for test matches when this dumb injury crisis among these quicks eases.

The obvious difference between Harris injury woes & these youngsters is that Harris's knee like Malinga just can't handle test cricket & the more of it he plays the more his international career will be cut short. Make him the odi attack leader with the 50 overs cup in mine like how Brett Lee was @ 35 in the 2011 world-cup.

Plus with the selectors worried about the young quicks having the rotate all three formats in the coming years. You can can possibly by having Harris a odi/t20 bowler only - be able to either prevent manage to young quicks around that format better & have them ready for the test cricket.

The selectors already made the smart decision to make Siddle a test only bowler & such a policy should be repeated with Harris for the limited overs.

T20 team

Australia just have not got their T20 selectors correct internationally since the first 2007 t20 cup. Although the ranking system are a joke, when australia were ranked 9th & below ireland recently, that had some truth to it.

Watching the big bash currently, it pretty obvious that Hodge & Nannes are still the best t20 batsman & bowler that Australia have. And it continues to baffle that they have been consistently overlooked in this format internationally, when various t20 leagues worldwide always clamor for their services.

Its not too late with the 2014 t20-cup coming up for the selectors to get it right & include them in their t20 squads.

best T20 team:

Warner, Watson (c), Finch, Hodge, D Hussey, Maxwell, Henriques, Wade, Hogg, Harris, Nannes. subs: Christian, M Marsh, Johnson, Starc

close outsiders: S Marsh, Birt, O'Keefe, Hastings, Coulter-Nile

Like with Harris, picking Nannes in the T20 team would inadvertently help the selectors in protecting the young quicks in that format en route to the 2014 tournament & keep them primed for tests with the double ashes in mind.

However as aforementioned i'm getting a bit nervous about what the selectors are doing & i'm not sure if any of these decision i reckon must happen, will be done.

 

[Left_Hander]

"quiney, hastings, maxwell", there is our problem. Too many Victorians

On a serious note. I don't see why Quiney would have replaced Watson when Watson is an allrounder. Agree with you on Hastings and Maxwell, they are bits and pieces cricketers. I think Hastings is good for Australia in the one day format but I'm not too sure how many more Tests he will play.

Hussey obviously leaves a big gap in our team. If he had just retired from ODI's then I think I would of been more confident with the Ashes series away. As someone else posted in another thread, Clarke is the only batsmen in the top 6 (what people were predicting) that looks like he could cause England problems. With Hussey's retirement, I'm worried the next two series could turn out like the last two.

 

[sifter132]

You pose some good dilemmas War...wish I had some answers. I'll ponder on them!

But my initially reaction for Watson is that they should keep him playing (and bowling) as a batting all-rounder. Limit him to 2 x 5 over spells a day and tell him to focus almost COMPLETELY on his batting. I'd love to see him open again, but that may not fit the team. I like his ability to get starts, and in that way he could be a Mark Waugh type guy at #4 ie. not many big scores, but once he got going he usually put on a 50+ partnership with someone. If he gets injured, fine - pick someone else as replacement - no big deal, but I say don't ditch him just because he MIGHT get injured.

 

[War]

Sri Lanka in Australia, 2012-13 : Could one Hussey replace another? | Cricket News | Australia v Sri Lanka | ESPN Cricinfo

Currently the idea of both Rogers & D Hussey in the test match top 6, looks fairly good.

 

[sifter132]

I'd rather see how Khawaja or even Ferguson goes before I turn to Hussey. Dave's certainly got some appeal given his ability to play spin and his experience in England. Rogers as yet ANOTHER left handed opener would be a bad idea from a team POV. This 2nd half of the Shield season will be a massive one for the young batsmen that's for sure.

Also correct in saying if Watson stops bowling then 4 quicks is an attractive option, since no top order player could act as 4th seamer, and Clarke/Warner could then be the 5th bowler. I'm still VERY concerned about over rates though...(always am ) Australia still drags it's feet, and cannot afford Clarke to be suspended. In Melbourne, the over rate was awful - around 12 overs per hour in that first innings. Either they speed up their processes ie. stop tinkering with the bloody field every other ball, or chit chatting at the top of their run up, or they will be forced to pick bowlers that get through overs quickly eg. Hilfenhaus. I think Lyon is being adversely affected by this too - he's the guy that bowls when behind the overrate, and he tends to rush a bit.

The other issue with the Test XI is the batting order...Warner, Cowan, Hughes, Khawaja, Watson all generally open or bat at #3. Alex Doolan, Rob Quiney and Shaun Marsh are the bench players who like to play there too. Not a lot of middle order guys floating around. It's Clarke and a bunch of maybes: Ferguson? D.Hussey? Bailey?

To my eyes Cowan looks like the guy who might be best suited to move down. I guess Warner or Watson would be next preference, but I'd like to try Cowan down there first. I know Cowan played in the middle order for NSW when he first started out, and it may suit the team too to have the steadier player in the middle rather than at the top. If he can show assurance vs spin, I'd be happy with Cowan to take on the Mike Hussey role (bat him at 5, Clarke at 4, Warner/Watson/Hughes as top 3).

For ODIs, I like the idea of consigning Harris to ODIs. I generally think the older more experienced guys should be playing limited overs stuff anyway, and let the young bowlers focus more on their Test match skills and playing Shield cricket. You mentioned Siddle and I think that kind of focus has worked well for him. Siddle's really improved his lengths - no fear in bowling full any more, and I put a significant part of that down to the fact that he's not in the ODI team anymore.

I'm really hoping Ferguson can do the Mike Hussey role. He showed plenty of promise a couple of years ago when he was in the ODI side, and he'd be the first guy I'd pick to try and fill that hole. It might be time for Dave Hussey to move on - a little harsh on Dave, but I would try Maxwell for the summer and see how he goes in that batting allrounder role. Finch is a good call, similarly Marsh and Phil Hughes as being in the mix. One of those 3 should be in the side, as I'd rather not see Wade opening. Not just because I think it's the best XI with him down the order, but because we need to see young batsmen developing, and exposing Finch to international quality bowlers would be a good start, rather than patching the opening spot with Wade who will see plenty of good bowling through his Test role.

My current ODI XI might be something like: Warner, Watson, Finch/Marsh/Hughes, Clarke, M.Hussey (Ferguson to replace), Maxwell, Wade, and then 4 bowlers. If Watson can no longer bowl, then you're looking at Henriques/Mitch Marsh/Christian etc in there somewhere. Picking the bowlers is probably the hardest part. A new confident Mitchell Johnson should be good as that bowling all-rounder at #8. I like what McKay bought to the table too in the last year - completely different style to Mitch as well. Then you could have Harris as 3rd seamer, or one of the young brigade, although my preference is always going to be NOT playing those young guys if possible. Spinner? Doherty vs Lyon vs Beer I guess, maybe O'Keefe. Jon Holland too when he gets back. Not really sold on any of them, but I hope they keep picking one. You can't find gold if you never pan for it.

And T20s? If I were running the team it would be a mix of 4-5 established names eg. Warner, Watson, White, D.Hussey, Cummins, Bailey?? and then just fill the rest with the guys who are killing it in the Big Bash eg. pick from guys like Maxwell, Lynn, S.Marsh, Rohrer, Ponting(!), Hodge, Finch, Ludeman, Beer/Doherty, Nannes, Cutting, Tait, Laughlin.
I'd prefer to not play Warner and Watson, playing all 3 formats can't be ideal mentally, but it would be good for the Cricket Australia purses to see them in the side.
I wouldn't bother worrying until next summer about who might be in a World T20 squad, who might captain etc. As we saw with the Bailey selection last summer, there aren't enough T20 internationals to do any long term planning or to form some kind of 'core' of a team. I the best idea with T20 is to play the guys who have the hot hand, and those who best suit the conditions you'll play in.

 

[War]

Ye its a big second half of the season for guys like khawaja, ferguson, s marsh especially.

I was just checking the fixtures for the india test series & i see the 1st test @ delhi is on feb 22nd - while the shield final is until march 22nd. So basically after the big bash ends on january 19 - their is only a handful on shield games on while australia are playing the windies for those young batsmen to really step up big before the india series - which is not really ideal.

This is why i think Rogers & Dussey's experience could make the serious options right now - god forbin those talented young batsmen don't cash in quickly during that tight period.

 

[sifter132]

Yes, Inverarity hinted that he's picked Khawaja and Hughes to play ODIs because it's better prep than the Big Bash. I'm guessing those 2 will be replaced by Clarke and Warner at some stage so they can go back and hit the Shield cricket.

I'd love to know if Aussie selectors think they NEED an experienced player in that Test lineup. From reactions, sounds like Hussey's retirement was a surprise, Ponting's perhaps not so much. If they think at least one is required, they may knee jerk and include Dave in the squad. I'm not sure I like it though... They had plenty of time to blood Dave in the past, if they turn to him JUST before 2 big tours it's poor planning and it just makes me more nervous that plan B is already in effect.

 

[icyman]

I think you forgot to add the George Bailey dilemma...

 

[spooony]

You mean the Australian Top Order dilemma

 

[icyman]

No, George Bailey as the T20 skipper, poised to replace Micheal Clarke as the ODI skipper for the ODIs versus Sri Lanka.

 

[sifter132]

Well when none of the top 4 candidates for captaincy (Clarke, Watson, M.Hussey and Warner) are in the squad, what other possibilities are there? Bailey deserved his spot in the ODI squad, because he's made runs this year for Tasmania in the Ryobi Cup, and he made decent runs for Australia on their ODI tours last year. The only other captaincy option was Haddin, and giving it to your 2nd choice 35 year old wicket keeper is hardly a great look. David Hussey was an option I guess, but Bailey is a man who captains frequently, Hussey has only ever been fill in guy.

Oh god, I've turned into a Bailey defender... I HATED the way he got the T20 captaincy, but this decision to have him captain for a couple of games is exactly what I would have done.

 

[Aalay]

Just a question. Do you guys(Australian fans) think that Warner can have a decent ODI career?

 

[Satan666]

Just a question. Do you guys(Australian fans) think that Warner can have a decent ODI career?

Yes.

 

[Gone4aDuck]

Just a question. Do you guys(Australian fans) think that Warner can have a decent ODI career?

Will have a better one day record than test record once retired. IMO
But hey, I think most modern players will.

 

[sifter132]

Just a question. Do you guys(Australian fans) think that Warner can have a decent ODI career?

He'll work it out eventually, yes, but this last year he really struggled in ODIs I thought. His overall average looked OK in 2012 (35.00), but it's propped up by 2 100s: 1 of which was a real struggle (100 off 140 vs SL in the finals last summer).

His scores last year:
0-19: 9
20-69: 13
100+: 2

Just hasn't really learned how to build an innings past the first powerplay, hence a lot of those 20-69 scores. I count 7 or 8 dismissals to spin last year too - a high percentage for an opener who hasn't made a lot of big scores. I feel he panics when spin ties him down early, and can't switch gears easily enough when the fielders get pushed back. Too often he keeps wanting to hit boundaries, particularly vs spin.

As I say, I think he'll get there. Some games at home will help, and every ODI innings gives him more experience.