Michael Jordan

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Paki Lover

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Mike played his last game today against the 76ers.

I just wanted to let you know since he is the Best Player in the History of B-Ball.
Hope you guys got to see him play something in his career.
You can't think of B-Ball without thinking of Mike.
 
Admin
Can you unlock some of the Pinned Topics.

There are only 5 Spots open for Everyday topics. Which I think is small because after few hrs some posts go on page 2 (Only in few hrs). WCEXP Fix and WCEXP Update. No one really reads them anymore and we have already moved on to making the game better so those posts just take up space.
 
Mike played his last game today against the 76ers.

I just wanted to let you know since he is the Best Player in the History of B-Ball.
Hope you guys got to see him play something in his career.
You can't think of B-Ball without thinking of Mike.


Retiring for the third time. I can't wait for his next comeback game :D
 
WCEXP Fix and WCEXP Update. No one really reads them anymore and we have already moved on to making the game better so those posts just take up space.

You're wrong there. I still get over 10-15 mails a day from people asking about the WCEXP and its fixes whom I redirect here.The main purpose of this forum is for tech help with released mods.

Besides you can change the number of posts displayed in your Controls -> Board Settings if anyone so wishes.
 
Andrew he is not Coming Back. He is 40 now. I hope he does. I don't care how many times he comes back because he is just that good and watching him is just awesome.
 
Mike played his last game today against the 76ers.

I just wanted to let you know since he is the Best Player in the History of B-Ball.
Hope you guys got to see him play something in his career.

Well... you've brought up one of my favourite topics mate ;) . I was resisting the temptation to post but I'm weak :D

I'm gonna take a while here so anyone not interested in hoop talk better leave :D

This is an article I wrote and researched for a hoops site. It will be published next month (May) but I'm posting it here for everyone.




And some have greatness thrust upon them...

It sure is a special moment when basketball's and the NBA's most famous son retires, albeit once again. Sure, Iverson scored more than double MJ did in his last game but there's no denying the impact Jordan has had on public conciousness.

However I won't call him the greatest player of all time. Far from it. The most famous player? Yes. The most talented ever ? No. The best athlete ever ? No.

Jordan is a commodity. One with immeasurable commercial value to the NBA, broadcast companies advertisers et all. What the happy thoughts is he talking about you ask ? Everyone knows Jordan's the best and the facts back it up, right ?

Well, how exactly is greatness measured ?

A great college career ?

Jordan's claim to fame is that he "led" NC to the 1982 NCAA title in the final game. Lets look at the facts. Jordan scored 16 points and hit a shot 15 seconds from time. Buzzer beater ? No way. 15 seconds is plenty of time in hoop terms. James Worthy, the real star of that NC team scored 28 pts, won tournament MVP, Most Outstanding Player. After Jordan's shot Worthy stole the ball and sealed the victory. Worthy led NC to the title yet NBA historians try to credit Jordan. An instance of "Jordan hype".

Best ever college player. Not even close.


Was he great because "he made those around him better" ?

Pippen. The first name that is always put forward for this "honour".

When was his best season ? 1994 the year Jordan retired. He led his team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals that year. Was MJ making him better ? Who insisted they should play together. Jordan not Pippen. If MJ made Pippen as some claim why not just take Kokoc or some other guy and "make" him ? Jordan didn?t make Pippen. Pippen made Pippen. He continues to be a great player and is the backbone of the current Portland team.

Rodman ? Get real. He was Defensive Player of the Year 90/91 and won 2 titles against the Bulls before he joined MJ.

Fast forward to the Wizards. As MJ moves on to front-office he leaves a team in shambles. A no 1 draft pick who if anything has regressed over time. Haywood, Alexander, Lue, Dixon,White most probably will continue in mediocrity. How did MJ make them better ? By berating Brown and the other younger players publicly ? By questioning the drive of Stackhouse an All Star calibre player, who should have been the number one option on the team if it had to succeed. Instead his cut and slash game had to be curbed to make way for MJ "off the bench".

Another interesting fact. BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant made their only All Star appearances... you guessed it the year they didn't play with MJ.

Did he really make those around him better ?


Was it because he was the most complete player ever ?

Jordan was a very mediocre 3 point shooter. He shot less than 20% his first five seasons. Even so is MJ the most complete ? Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Roberston were more "complete".

Oscar is the only player in NBA history ever to average a ?triple double? (double figures in scoring, 30.8 points per game; assists, 11.4 per game; and rebounding, 12.5 per game) for an entire season. Complete ? happy thoughts yes !Jordan hasn't come close to averaging such numbers ever.

Chamberlain ? How about 56 all-time scoring records, 50 ppg during a season, 100 points in a game, 29 times leading the league is assists and rebounds. Blocks and steals were not recorded until after Chamberlain retired though incredibly he often he led the league in these categories.


Was he the greatest because he was the best dunker and had the most raw talent ever ?

MJ certainly could jump but he was far from the best. His vertical leap was not even close to others in the NBA like Dominique and even Spudd Web. MJ could never do the beyond-the-free-throw-line dunk. He stepped over the line in his 1988 dunk contest attempt. He got a 50 and wins against Domique who clearly is the better of the two. Next year Pippen does it from beyond. He gets a 45. Another victim of "Jordan hype".

So who was the best dunker of all time. The one who comes closest is Earl ?The Goat? Manigault, perhaps the best raw-talent-player ever to have played the game.A shade over 6 feet tall, he could dunk effortlessly with both hands. With a vertical leap of 52 inches,he had the ability to jump up and grab quarters off of the top of a basketball backboard.The Goat held court against countless NBA pros and Hall-of-Famers in the famous Rucker League where the best playground players played with the pros every summer.

At seventeen he had mastered thegame and had been credited with creating several new dunks, the most famous of which was the double dunk. He was courted by lOO's of colleges and offered 75 scholarships, but never graduated from high school. Soon after, he started using heroin and
his life quickly spun out of control. He wound up in prison for
robbery, served his time, and in the most remarkable part of his story,
he stayed clean, never returned to drugs or prison, and has since
dedicated himself to helping kids stay in school and stay clean through
his "walk away from drugs" tournaments. For those of you who have never
heard of Earl and question how good he really was, consider this: he is
the only basketball player ever to have both a book written about him,
Double Dunk by Barry Beckham, and a movie made of his life, Rebound by
HBO, but was never famous in college or the pros. HBO called him the
greatest basketball player no one ever knew. Kareem Abdul Jabbar was
asked on the day of his retirement as a Laker at the Forum in LA, who
was the greatest player he had ever played against in his career.
Kareem answered after a long silence, "It would have to be Goat, Earl
'the Goat' Manigault" not Magic not Oscar but Earl.


No way ! He's the "best ever" man ! Y'know the "best ever"

Jordan is called the "best ever" by people who refuse to define their criteria, because Jordan will come up short. His awards are often called out, but when they are put into perspective, it is easy to see that it is simple hype, because using a common comparison will make Jordan come up short.


Why is Jordan the best ever?

Championships ?

No contest.

In college, Russell won 2 national championships in 3 seasons. Jordan won 1 championship in 3 seasons. Russell was the star of his championships unlike MJ.

Bill Russell played 13 seasons in the NBA. His teams played in the NBA Finals 12 of those 13 seasons. They won the title in 11 of those seasons, including eight seasons in a row.

Want to talk about who changed the game? Russell is indisputably the greatest defensive player in NBA history. He is one of the 3 greatest rebounders in history (statistically #2), and on a balanced team, he averaged 15.1 ppg and 4.3 apg.

Bill Russell the greatest team player of the twentieth century basketball, and its greatest winner.


MVP wins ?


Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, like Jordan, won six NBA championships. However, he won more Most Valuable Player awards and 2 NCAA championships. Moving on...


Most Dominating ?

Did I mention Wilt Chamberlain ? I did ? Right. Just to refresh everyone;s memory...

Chamberlain re-wrote the record books and dominated like no player before or since. His first year in the league, he set rebounding and scoring records that no OTHER player before or since has broken. In 1961-62, he averaged 50.4 ppg. He won seven scoring titles, 11 rebounding titles, set 56 scoring records,and led the league in minutes played 8 times. He averaged over 45 minutes per game every game of his career. In 1967-68 he led the league in assists ? something Jordan, a guard, has never came close to doing. Chamberlain holds the records for points scored in a season and a game (100), rebounds in a game (55), season, and career., as well as minutes played in a season (he averaged 48.5 min/game in 1961-62), and field goal percentage in a season (72.7%).

In addition to re-writing the record books, Chamberlain re-wrote the rule books, as the league passed many rules to try to limit his dominance. Jordan, on the other hand, has been the beneficiary of rules passed to enhance his scoring (hand checks, defined zones, 3-point shot, flagrant fouls).


So who IS the greatest ?

As I've illustrated greatness means many things to different people. Bill Russell, The Big Dipper, Oscar Roberston, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and yes...Michael Jordan they are all great. Each of these players are legitimate legends.

What this artcle attempts to prove is that whatever you think about Michael Jordan's place in basketball history, he is not the best there was or the best there ever will be. His claim to the best ever is based on popularity, media-hype, and endorsements, with a few weak arguments thrown in for good measure.

MJ was a remarkable player, one of the best but his greatness lies not in his game but in his ability to hypnotise us with his charisma, to "sell". Teams that have enjoyed sold-out arenas virtually each time he stepped onto the court, media partners like CBS, NBC, ABC and TNT (not to mention ESPN this season) that have basked in higher ratings because a nation clamoured to see his awe-inspiring moves, the NBA itself which reaped growing rights fees, and corporations that became the gold standard because they used No. 23 to pitch their products.

His legacy ?

M.J. Two letters known in all corners of the globe....one of many great ball players but basketball's only superstar.
 
I love it when someone shatters the myth! Always knew Jordan wasn't the best, just famous.

Anyway Vineet, you're a bit of a dark horse aren't you? Is there any sport you don't know about?
 
WOW Wonderful Posts but half it is all wrong.
Jordan made the last shot in the 82 Championship game, Worthy shot 13-17 during that game, so why didn't he take the last shot???? And Guess what MJ was a Freshman. Freshman taking a final shot of the Title game and making it. Making the Last min shots is what Jordan great. I do agree with you about Jordan not been the Greatest College Player Ever.

"he made those around him better"

Pippen is what he is today because of Michael. Because of Mike he was included in TOP 50 players in NBA history. Without MJ he led Bulls Pts, Steals, and so on but who was the 2nd best player on their team at that time. Pippen became #1 player after MJ left but what did he do, Did he take Bulls to their 4th Title, They still have Phil Jackson and most of their players. Bulls didn't win their 4th Title until MJ came back. Few years later MJ retires and Pippen goes to Portland. Trail Blazers had a good team and the Owner got Pippen because he wanted Pippen to lead TB to a NBA title. And Guess what TB's are still looking for that Title. What has Pippen done for TB, since he as the experience and since he was in top 50... NOTHING. Since leaving the Bulls after the 1997-98 season, Pippen has averaged 11.9 points and 5.5 rebounds a game, but he's made more than $73 million in salary. You are right Vineet, Pippen did make himself better.


He has shown what it takes to win to these little kids in Wizards team and next year they might even get to the Playoffs in a Crappy Eastern Conference. WIZARDS won 19 games before MJ came back and the two years he played, He almost took the Wizards the Playoffs. He made everyone better around him They had a winning record when he was on the Floor and when he went on IL. They lost too many games to make it back into the race for playoffs. Stackhouse is the 2nd most Selfish player in the NBA after Allen Iverson. Stackhouse played of ****ty woof! Pistons where he took half the shots and got those stats that got him into the all star game. With Wizards he wasn't the #1 player on that team thats what pissed him off and he really didn't care that much the whole season. Only thing MJ did wrong with the Wizards is trade Hamilton for Stackhouse.

berating Brown and the other younger players publicly? I don't know how many times you see NBA highlights but this year when Wizards where down by 2 games with only 15 some games to go. MJ went for a steal and knocked the ball away, NO ONE from his team went for it so he dove and hit his chin on the floor to get the ball. That's a 40 year old man busting his chin to get the ball and 20 year olds watching him. See PIC BELOW

Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Roberston and Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar were all 7 feet tall.
**** I would have scored 100 pts if I was 7 feet tall and playing NBA in the 60's and 70's. There were no one during that time that could defend 7 feet players. Thus all these tall players got their Titles

Now lets move on too why he is the Greatest Player in the NBA history.

1 Buzzer Shots
Do you have any idea how many Buzz beaters he has made. 98 Championship Game, 93 Conf semi Finals against Cavs, Last season against the Cavs, and countless others during the playoffs and regular season.
2 He Avg more per game than your wonder Wilt. 30.12 MJ to 30.07 Wilt
3 Scoring 63 Wonderful pts against Larry Bird in the Playoffs. Which is still a record.
4 Winning 6 Titles in a Row (when he was in the League) when there were players like Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Shaq and so on.
5 Giving away B-ball to play Baseball because it was his Fathers dream. He had won 3 Titles in a Row and turning away from a game you love to fullfil your father's dream. (That's a kinda son I want)
6. Air Time he gets during his dunks
7. Making hard shots look easy during games.
8. All the Records he has set (I don't want to write them all since my hands will hurt and this reply will turn into a Essay)
9 No fear of failure Turning away from B-ball to play Baseball which he was never good.
10 Look at the Overall Picture. Don't break down each Record like MVP's or College Titles, and so on. If you break it down they you find some other players that have 1 better Record than him. Once you look at his overall performance in his Career then you will truly understand how great he is.

I wanna keep going but its your time to fire back and depend your position.
 
By the way
Vineet aren't you from Down Under??

how do you know soo much about NBA??

Do you know anything about NFL?

Who do you think is the best Running Back?
 
WOW Wonderful Posts but half it is all wrong.

Ok I'll take those one by one.

Jordan made the last shot in the 82 Championship game, Worthy shot 13-17 during that game, so why didn't he take the last shot????

So your contending that because MJ made the last shot of the championship game he "led" NC to the title even though Worthy carried the team ? Using your same criteria then consider the following:

1. 1993 NBA Finals

John Paxson's sinks the game-winning three-pointer and at the other end of the floor, Horace Grant slaps away Kevin Johnson's last-second drive.

2.1997 NBA finals

In the final game a 90-86 win, it wasn't Jordan supplying the heroics, it was Steve Kerr who hit the clutch game winner.

Does that mean Paxton Horace or Kerr "led" the Bulls? Hardly. Does it negate everything MJ did till then ? MJ was the one who led his team undoubtedly as it was Worthy on the NC team.

As to why Worthy didn't take the last shot, why didn't MJ take it instead of Kerr or Paxton ? Because they had him blanketed with defenders and it made more sense for someone else to take the shot.They played fundemental basketball.

And Guess what MJ was a Freshman.

One word.Magic.He put up impressive numbers as a freshman (17.0 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 7.4 apg), leading the Spartans to a 25-5 record and the Big Ten Conference title. As an All-America sophomore Johnson directed his team to the national title in 1979, beating Larry Bird's Indiana State squad in perhaps the most anticipated NCAA Championship Game ever played.

Magic was a first-team All-American freshman. Jordan wasnt even all-conference as a freshman. And he faced no one with close to the talent level of Bird in college.

How did Jordan do for the remainder of his college career? In 1981, the year before Jordan supposedly led Carolina to the title, Sam Perkins, Al Wood and James Worthy led the Tar Heels to the National Championship game, where they lost to Isiah Thomas and the Indiana Hoosiers. Surely Jordan could carry on this streak of championship game appearances, right? Wrong.

His teams never even made it back to the Final Four, let alone to the championship. Did he lack the teammates? No. He played with Sam Perkins (#4 pick in the 1984 draftright behind Jordan), Brad Daugherty (#1 in the 1986 draft) and Kenny Smith (#6 in the 1987 draft). Yet, without Worthy, theres Jordan leading his team to disappointing finishes, despite having a #2 seed and a #1 seed if it were anyone else, the media would call them "chokes."

Yes, the counter-argument is that the NCAA tournament is upset-prone, but come on...what happened to Michael Jordan's overrated "will to win?" Don't tell me this was just another product of the media! Wilt Chamberlain was called a "loser" for losing to an undefeated team in the finals in triple-overtime, yet Jordan couldn't even lead a team to the Finals, let alone the Final Four -- and he's supposed to be the "best ever?" I think not. Funny how short Jordan comes up when you level the playing field and use the same standards to measure him that are used to measure everybody else.


Making the Last min shots is what Jordan great.

As for Jordan's supposed "clutch" ability, sure he put his hand up in pressure situations but so did others. You might have heard of Mr. Clutch ? Jerry West hit many more clutch shots than Jordan ever did in his career. And what about the 60-foot bomb that tied Game 3 of the 1970 NBA Finals against the New York Knicks ? Probably the most famous clutch shot ever.Worthy was the clutch big-game player of the Showtime Era.His performance alone in the 1988 finals makes him "worthy".Hakeem. As the sixth-seed Rockets knocked off the 60-win Utah Jazz, the 59-win Phoenix Suns, the 62-win San Antonio Spurs and the 57-win Orlando Magic The Dream sunk crucial basket after basket on his way to the title.

What about Bird and Reggie Miller ? The list goes on.... the only reason Jordan is considered so hgihly in this regard is again due to media hype. Players like West and others in the 70s and early 80s didnt get anywhere near that kind of publicity since hoops was still a fringe sport commercially.

We all miss Michael. Face it, though, his greatness was defined by memorable moments against Byron Russell and Craig Ehlo, in a diluted era when 60 wins might not mean home court advantage in the conference finals. Transpose the 1962-68 Royals to the 1990s (with Phil as their coach) and Oscar is making long distance calls and dining with the President.

I do agree with you about Jordan not been the Greatest College Player Ever.

Good.Or else Pistol Pete, Walon, Kareem and many others would be real cross with you :D

Pippen is what he is today because of Michael.......

There's lot here I dont' agree with.

Without MJ he led Bulls Pts, Steals, and so on but who was the 2nd best player on their team at that time.

You've accidentally hit the nail on the head.

A common argument I've faced is, "the Bulls didn't win the title in 1994, did they?" While Jordan fans claim that he and he alone was single-handedly responsible for the title, they conveniently neglect 1995. Jordan did come back that season. However, the Bulls didn't have Horace Grant (and Dennis Rodman would not join until the next season). Without Grant, their rebounding and interior defense deficiencies were exposed by the Orlando Magic (Horace Grant's team, ironically), and the Bulls lost in the second round 2-4. The previous year, without Jordan, they lost 3-4 in the 2nd round. Now if Jordan were single-handedly responsible for those titles, why did they do even worse in the playoffs after he returned than they did the year before, when they didn't have him?

Sure, they won the championship the following season,you may point out, but they fixed their rebounding/interior defense problems by acquiring Dennis Rodman. Without Grant or Rodman, Jordan simply could not win a championship. After all, the team really didn't miss him that badly when he retired.

When 1995 is brought up, people will invariably say "Jordan had court rust, what do you expect?" Jordan played 17 games that season. In 1986, Jordan played 18 games. In the 1986 playoffs Jordan scored a playoff-record 63 points. Why was Jordan able to shake the court rust in 1986 and not in 1995 when he was in his prime ? Jordan fans usually claim that he got better as he got older.

Furthermore, to expose the double-standard, in 1969-70, Wilt Chamberlain played 9 games and then tore up his knee (similar injury to Charles Barkley's career-ending injury). He returned for the final 3 games of the regular season, and then took his team to the 7th game of the NBA finals (the famous Willis Reed game). Why is Chamberlain a "loser" and Jordan "has court rust"? Chamberlain's team went to the 7th game of the NBA Finals. Jordan's team couldn't even get to the 7th game of the Eastern Conference semi-finals. If Jordan is better than Wilt (and everybody else), then Jordan has no excuse for not leading the Bulls to the 1995 NBA Championship. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Losing to Orlando in the Conference semi-finals can only be described as a major choke.

Few years later MJ retires and Pippen goes to Portland......

Pippen is still a reasonably dominating defensive player, and he continues to be a playmaker.MJ lost a lot of respect when he took short cuts on D to uphold up his offense.The great under-told story is that Jordan's pro teams have never had a winning season w/out Scottie Pippen. And Pippen's never played for a loser, with or w/out Jordan. The worst record Pippen's teams have ever hadis 47-35, both times w/ Michael Jordan on board.Michael's the best of his era, but owes a great deal of his team's accomplishments to Scottie. One player no matter how good isn't enough to win a title.

Jordan is also 1-9 in playoff games prior to Pip's arrival in Chicago, while Pip has made it to the Conference Finals as a Blazer and came very close (one bad Hue Hollins call, which the league later acknowledged ) from doing so in the year after Jordan's first retirement.

True Scottie didn't really deserve to get into the Hall. He's a very good player but not a great one. He may have a inordinately big contract but nothing in comparison to the Bakers, Howards and even the Browns of the game.


He has shown what it takes to win to these little kids in Wizards team and next year they might even get to the Playoffs in a Crappy Eastern Conference. WIZARDS won 19 games before MJ came back and the two years he played, He almost took the Wizards the Playoffs.

Dream on. With MJ out they simply don't have the players to win, even in the East.Kwame is unhappy. Doug is unhappy. Jerry Stackhouse is unhappy, but might not be able to opt-out of his contract. MJ isn't happy with the players.The irony in it is that 11 out of 13 players on the Wiz squad were handpicked by MJ the GM.

Stackhouse is the 2nd most Selfish player in the NBA after Allen Iverson. Stackhouse played of ****ty woof! Pistons where he took half the shots and got those stats that got him into the all star game. With Wizards he wasn't the #1 player on that team thats what pissed him off and he really didn't care that much the whole season.


That seems more emotion than sense speaking there mate :D

Detroit is a defense oriented team with very few scorers. Stackhouse was required to take those shots to just keep them in the game, and scoring is something he can do. Who do you think kept the scoreboard ticking when MJ had those 6-10 point games this season ? Stackhouse was in the unfamiliar position of playing off Jordan, trying to be a standstill jump shooter, which is not his game at all.Their halfcourt offense frequently disintegrated into Jordan or Stackhouse trying to beat the shot clock. The Wizards still don't have a legitimate No. 1 point guard, or big-time low-post scorer on their roster. Doug's authority has been undermined and players openly disrespect him now.

If he doesn't return to the Wiz front office I'd have to say he put a franchise on hold for two years to chase his own fortysomething fantasies.It's also the franchise that, with Jordan in charge, drafted Kwame Brown instead of trading for Elton Brand or drafting Pau Gasol.

He did give them a glimpse into his winning world and he did fill the seats. From a purely selfish point I'm glad he came back. Don't get me wrong, there are very few players I'd rather watch but did he make the Wiz better ? I'm not so sure.

Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Roberston and Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar were all 7 feet tall.


Firstly only Chamberlain and Jabbar were over 7 feet.

Russell was 6"8 and listed as 6"10 in the NBA

Oscar was 6"5 (shorter than MJ ) yet he did things Jordan can only dream of.

In his first season as a pro, he averaged 30.5 ppg, 9.7 rpg, and 9.7 apg. (Jordan averaged 28.2, 6.5, and 5.9). Over the course of his first five seasons Robertson AVERAGED a triple-double. Triple-double games were not recorded when Robertson played. It was another day at the office for him. This perfectly illustrates the difference between Robertson and Jordan. The media made a big deal out of Jordan having the first (recorded) triple-double in All-Star history, just like they make a big deal out of Jason Kidds 7-or so triple-doubles he has each year. For Robertson, he didnt need to have an extra assists to reach 10, to have that "triple-double," because it wasnt a big deal. The media saw greatness for what it was and not because a guy has 10 assists, 10 rebounds, and 10 points. Robertson didnt simply have triple-doubles, he had man-sized triple-doubles. His triple-doubles were on the order of 30-11-10.


**** I would have scored 100 pts if I was 7 feet tall and playing NBA in the 60's and 70's. There were no one during that time that could defend 7 feet players. Thus all these tall players got their Titles

I dont mean to offend and I appreciate your arguments elsewhere but that is a very ignorant and false statement . Dont get angry :D I'll tell you why.

There are a couple of things wrong with this one. First, who says that
being bigger guarantees dominance? If that were the case, we'd be handing
the MVP over to Shawn Bradley right about now. Second, its not as though there were no tall people in the 60s. Wilt has actually published a list of tall people he played against, to dispel that very myth. The list includes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Nate Thurmond, Bob Lanier, Artis Gilmore, Walt Bellamy, and many more.

If you try to attribute Wilt's astonishing career to height, how can you explain why Abdul-Jabbar couldnt equal these feats, despite being taller, and playing against Chamberlain for four seasons, or why players like Shawn Bradley, Rik Smits, Ralph Sampson, Gheorghe Muresan, Mark Eaton, or Dikembe Mutombo have never challenged these feats ? Furthermore, to use height as an excuse is to say that Jordan needs handicaps to look good. Why not spot him 2 strokes per hole if you golf with him?

Wilt's defining moments came against Bill Russell, Kareem, Thurman and Willis (and those are some of the best big men ever !) , with a power forward (or a dirty small forward) banging on him as well. Jordan the market-maker was protected. Wilt, like his peers, physical absorbed punishment as part of the job.

Just as catchers and shortstops have a leg up in baseball MVP voting, so also a great center means more than a great guard. A great center must rebound prodigiously, score in the clutch, anchor the defense, and if he is truly great, pass well.

Jordans feats cannot match up to Chamberlains. You may point to their career scoring averages, yet why does Chamberlain have 119 games with 50+ points, to Jordans 30. Furthermore, if you chalk up Chamberlain's rebounding dominance to his height advantage, why did he lead the league in assists, and Jordan a guard could not ?

And oh...Big Russ had to go through Baylor, West, Barry, Greer, Schayes, Pettit, and Wilt to get those 11 rings!!!!

As for your "list of greatness" a similar once could be made up for any of the players I've put forward in this rather long post.

For the sake of completeness I'll address the relevant ones.

1,2 already answered.

3. Any MJ scoring "record" is futile . 56 Wilt :D

4. Big Russ had to go through Baylor, West, Barry, Greer, Schayes, Pettit, and Wilt to get those 11 rings!!!!

6. As I already stated not even close to being the best dunker or having the best vertical leap.

8. For the same reason i refer you toOscar facts

Wilt ? Records ? YOu dont want to go there...trust me :D

10. I would like to emphasize a point I made a long time ago.
There needn't be a best player of all time; it could be a tie. In fact, I
think it's about a 7-way tie: Wilt, Big O Magic, Bird, Kareem, Jordan, and
Russell. These players are all so good, and all so different, that forcing
a choice would be somewhat artificial. Having said all of this, however,
if I were forced to choose, I would say that Wilt Chamberlain was the best
of all time.

I leave you with this:


Imagine a college player coming into the NBA next season and scoring 5157 points and averaging 64.5 ppg. Then the following season he scores 5776 points while averaging 65.8 ppg. Then the next season he scores 7670 points and averages 86.2 ppg.

Along the way he has single game highs of 110 and 141.

He does this while also pulling down 2578 rebounds his first year for a 32.6 average and follows it up his second year with 2862 - a 32.9 avg.

But he's criticized and told he shoots too much.

So then he decides to concentrate on only taking sure shots and
raises his field goal % to .741, follows that a couple of years later with a .934 FG% and concludes a couple of years later with a .990 FG %


Those numbers are what someone coming into the league today would have to register to change the existing records by the same percentage increases that Wilt Chamberlain did.


Great I have enough material for a follow up article :D
 
OMG

That's a lot to read.
Since you are soo good at writing, Wanna write some English Papers for me???
Anyways give me few hrs to read thru your wonderful post and follow up with my killer defense.
 
Originally posted by **** Lover@Apr 17 2003, 11:15 PM
By the way
Vineet aren't you from Down Under??

how do you know soo much about NBA??

Do you know anything about NFL?

Who do you think is the best Running Back?
?????????????
 
Did Worthy really lead NC to the Title? Before MJ, Worthy played with Perkins and Wood and led NC to final but he lost. Why didn't he win? During the 82 Regular season, Worthy only Avg around 2 more pts than Jordan. Jordan scored more pts than Worthy during the Semi Final game against Houston.
Jordan had more Assits and more Rebounds than Worthy (MJ was a G and Worthy F) in the Final and made the last shot. So just because Worthy had a hot hand and scored 28 pts in the Final, you think he Led NC to the title. Lets Flash Forward to this Year. My MAIN MAN Carmelo Anthony and his team played against Kansas in the Final game. Freshman Guard McNamara made 6 3 pointers in the first half that gave Orangemen a huge lead which they never lost. Hakim Warrick blocked the shot that could have made Kansas win the game. So who really LED Orangemen to the Win?? Was it Warrick, McNamara or Carmelo???

Just because you are good in College doesn't mean you are going to be good in NBA. And Listings where each player was drafted doesn't mean anything. Because teams pick the wrongs players somethings. For Example this year. Jason Williams and Mike Dunleavy were picked #2 and #3 because both of them were just plain old awesome during their college career at Duke. But what have they done in the NBA?? Nothing. Amare Stoudemire was picked #8 and he helped his team reach the playoffs. So right now, if you had to pick a player between Williams, Stoudemire and Dunleavy, who would you take? MJ was picked #3, Do you even know who was picked at #2? I mean since that player was #2, and MJ #3 then #2 has to be better than #3, RIGHT???

Me accidentally hit the nail on the head???
I don't want to sound like a bitch but I am pretty sure I know a little more than you about NFL, NBA, MLB.

I know Jordan came back in 95, But how many games did he play in 95. That's right 17 games, He came back to NBA in the last month of the regular season. I don't care who you are, but everyone needs time to get back into shape and to get that feel again. If they didn't, Why would anyone play Spring Training games or Pre Season games?? Why not just start the Season after a long Off Season. MJ played 18 games in 86 and scored 63 points against Larry Bird but did he win the Title? NO

Pippen is still a reasonably dominating defensive player??
What are you smoking? Pippen played with Jordan, If I played with Jordan, Even I would have a winning record. After MJ, Pippen went to Portland where they already had stars and their owners still keeps on getting stars to the Title since the owner has plenty of money. Pippen is not even #1 player on Portland team and never was. Rasheed Wallace, Bonzi Wells, Anderson, Ruben Patterson. Pippen is normally hurt and hasn't done anything for the TB since the trade to bring him there. Pippen's FG% is down, Steals per game are down, Rebounds are down. And Pippen is still a reasonably dominathing defensiver player??? HAHAHAH

Jerry Stackhouse.
Why was he traded to Wash? Since he was a All-Star player on a Defensive Pistons team. I will tell you why, He was a Selfish player who took about 20 shots per game. Det got a new GM (Joe Dumars) and he didn't like Jerry because of his selfish play and traded him to Wash. Everyone knows Jerry hated staying in Det.

Little Wizards Kids.
How do you know they won't make the playoffs next year without Jordan? East Conf, flat out sucks, .500 team can make it into the playoffs. Kwane didn't play in College and is getting better each year. If you have a big PF or C (Like O'Neal) in Eastern Conf then you will atleast win 20 some games.

7 Feet Giants
Rusell and Wilt faced off against each other all the time in the Playoffs because the 7 Feet Giants were the best players in the 60's and the Tallest players at that time and on one could stop them. If Wilt scored 100 pts in a game, Who had the 2nd most pts and how many? 16 was the total the 2nd highest on that team. Wilt took 63 shots and #2 player took 18 shots. Give MJ or anyone 63 shots then I bet they can score 100 pts too. In the 4th Quarter Wilt only made .333% of his shots. He made 7 and trying 21 shots. 21 Shots in a Quarter kinda tells you that he was just shooting and hoping to get his 100. Phil was already up 19 pts in the 4th Quarter no idea to take that many shots for 1 player. Wilt had a wonderful avg of 55 pts and so on. But what was the Avg number of shots he took??

Mr. Clutch Jerry West
College Freshamn Magic
NBA Titles Bill Russell
Records Wilt

All 4 Together Micheal Jordan

Wilt, Jerry, Magic, Kareem, Bill are all great players but MJ is the total Package.


ONE Record I wish I could break of Wilt is.................... 1000 Girls he said he did. :D ONE LUCKY GUY.
 
Originally posted by Admin+Apr 18 2003, 11:28 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Admin @ Apr 18 2003, 11:28 AM)</div>
But he's criticized and told he shoots too much.

So then he decides to concentrate on only taking sure shots and raises his field goal % to .741,? follows that a couple of years later with a .934 FG% and concludes a couple of years later with a .990 FG % [/b]
WHAT?????????

Prove those wonderfult stats

.990 FG% :D :D :D

The highest FG% Wilt ever had was his last year with .727%

.741%, .934%, .990%
Wonderful Numbers but mooo! near Impossible and also False.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamber...lain_stats.html


<!--QuoteBegin-Admin
@Apr 18 2003, 11:28 AM
Imagine a college player coming into the NBA next season and scoring 5157 points and averaging 64.5 ppg.?? Then the following season he scores 5776 points while averaging 65.8 ppg.? Then the next season he scores 7670 points and averages 86.2 ppg.
Are you talking about Wilt or someone Else?

Your Stats are totally wrong.

But 86.2 PPG and 64.5 PPG sure do sound nice.
 
I will end my Defense by saying This

Picking someone else as the All Time Greatest Player in NBA over JORDAN

Is Like

Eating cereal and picking a Fork over a spoon.
 

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