National pride. Positive or negative?

[manee]

So you are calling old soliders and national heroes who served during the wars yobs ?, because some of these people can not just forget what happened as they witnessed what went on in the various countries first hand.

That statement is the problem with many young people today, they don't understand what went on at that time, infact the period of 1933-1945 doesn't even exist in most German schools to this day, people should remember what happened as a reminder of what can happen if the wrong people get in control of a country.

It will be many a year before what went on during those years can be forgotten.

Many if not all of the germans of today who go to footie matches did not fight in the wars and did not support it at all!!!

Football is a game for fun...sometimes people forget that

 

[Sureshot]

Alcohol is technically a drug. If it wasn't so popular or if it had worse effects governments would have banned it. Just like other drugs (but diluted, so less effects) alcohol is drunk to enhance the experience or escape from a bad one (though the latter would not apply to England fans). But again, in the wrong hands it can be dangerous.

Alcohol is incredibly dangerous, only reason it's not banned is the tens of millions of tax it brings in, same with smoking.

They both have effects as bad as the Class C drugs.

 

[Englishandproud]

Many if not all of the germans of today who go to footie matches did not fight in the wars and did not support it at all!!!

And your point is ?

You are saying that people should forget about what went on, it doesnt matter when German people were born they should all be made aware of what went on in their country in history.

 

[barmyarmy]

IMO the problem is that people don't tend to know history; they tend to know popular myths and stereotypes (or dominant discursive practices as we historians call them!).
Thus whilst a teacher may be trying to present a nuanced and complex view of Nazi Germany, all a student may take from the class is 4 legs good; 2 legs bad (or british good; germans bad).
The fact is that there is nothing that makes British young people more special than German young people. The ugly implicit assumption that "it could never have happened here" is based entirely on hindsight and is both erroneous and insulting.
Of course we should be aware of history and of course we should be aware of the horrors of the Nazi regime but perhaps this tendency in Britain to focus solely on this aspect of German history whilst contrasting it with visions of British tolerance and pluralism is what is fueling this xenophobia.
Lets put the German enlightenment on the curriculum; lets learn about Martin Luther and lets stop the only fact we know about Germany being that it lost 2 world wars and 1 world cup.

Alcohol is incredibly dangerous, only reason it's not banned is the tens of millions of tax it brings in, same with smoking.

Well I can think of some other reasons too...

 

[Sureshot]

A Joke on the Adolf myth.

His favourite star wars character was Hang Solo

 

[edgarisapimp]

Well, I'm going to have a crack at this one on behalf of Americans:
In America as well as Britain, people are really uninformed about the Nazis. It's easy to pass off the entire German people of that era as being Nazis and that they fervently accepted Hitler as their f?hrer. It may seem that way becuase those people (a significant minority) were the most vocal/visible. The thing is, the German people wanted change. WWI and the ensuing depression really hurt Germany badly. It was a thing that happened in Germany, but could have happened anywhere else. It isn't as if the Germans knew that Hitler was going to be the tyrant he was. They were a hopeless people and they listened to Hitler because he gave them hope. Unfortunately that economic improvement came at the expense of so many others. The fact of the matter is, Germans today are not Nazis and they obviously are pained when people brand them as such. We had a German exchange student come to our school. He was one of those 6 foot something blondes that people generally associate with Nazis. He was taunted (never to his face) about being a Nazi JUST because "he looks like one" and he is German. THAT is unfair by a country mile. Ideas like that contribute to the view that German national unity means a resurgence of Nazism. If Germany becomes united by their team, then all the better. In fact, if any nation can unite under a just cause then all the power to them. There is nothing wrong with a diverse people coming together for something.

 

[embi]

A Joke on the Adolf myth.

His favourite star wars character was Hang Solo

A fairly commonly known Adolf true fact: He was a vegetarian

He was such a hypocrite though, created "the perfect race" (blond hair, blue eyes) which he wasn't actually part of (he had brown hair, brown eyes).

I read a newspaper articles ages ago, months or something where these teenagers were asked to name famous Germans, and apparently most of them could only think of Hitler. Noone even mentioned Einstein!

 

[Sureshot]

Well considering Adolf wasn't German anyway...

 

[edgarisapimp]

Nor was Einstein - he was Swiss.

I can name Beckenbauer, Khan, Ballack...

 

[barmyarmy]

Like I said the names we should be celebrating are Ranke, Kant, Thomasius, Pufendorf, Wolfe et al.

 

[embi]

Well Einstein was born in Germany (and lived there). Yes, Hitler was Austrian, but he was pretty much Head of State in Germany so he could be arguably considered German.

 

[Ritwik]

Well, I'm going to have a crack at this one on behalf of Americans:
In America as well as Britain, people are really uninformed about the Nazis. It's easy to pass off the entire German people of that era as being Nazis and that they fervently accepted Hitler as their f?hrer. It may seem that way becuase those people (a significant minority) were the most vocal/visible. The thing is, the German people wanted change. WWI and the ensuing depression really hurt Germany badly. It was a thing that happened in Germany, but could have happened anywhere else. It isn't as if the Germans knew that Hitler was going to be the tyrant he was. They were a hopeless people and they listened to Hitler because he gave them hope. Unfortunately that economic improvement came at the expense of so many others. The fact of the matter is, Germans today are not Nazis and they obviously are pained when people brand them as such. We had a German exchange student come to our school. He was one of those 6 foot something blondes that people generally associate with Nazis. He was taunted (never to his face) about being a Nazi JUST because "he looks like one" and he is German. THAT is unfair by a country mile. Ideas like that contribute to the view that German national unity means a resurgence of Nazism. If Germany becomes united by their team, then all the better. In fact, if any nation can unite under a just cause then all the power to them. There is nothing wrong with a diverse people coming together for something.

Well you may call Nazi supporters a "signifcant minority" but tell me one thing, which leader/political formation has ever won the absolute majority in terms of vote-share in a democratic polity ? This is particularly difficult to achieve in a "first past the pole" system. The fact remains that Hitler's party did command the highest representation in the German parliament in 1933. Instead of underestimating Nazi strength, what we SHOULD be doing is to discuss how so many people were fooled at the same time. The basic and ultimately precipitative reason obviously is that Germans wanted to see a powerful leader who could act as a catalyst of change for betterment. But their humiliation at the hands of the British and their allies after the first world war, and particularly the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles served only to leave deep psychological scars on many Germans of the day, including Adolf Hitler. He was indisputably a highly charismatic personality, and he used this charisma to rally several types of people around him. His task was obviously made easier due to the generally corrupt and unimaginative, not to say complecent mainstream political leadership in Germany at the time.

Personally, I feel that the basic lesson to draw from the 2nd world war and its causes is that children should be well trained in the humanities, so that they can grow to become responsible citizens who can distinguish between different types of people, and realize when they're being duped in the name of religion/identity/class/national feeling. In the present world scenario however, I've to regrettably say that the liberal arts, social sciences and literature is being ignored for a more "career oriented" or "focused" education, to the general detriment of society.

 

[Englishandproud]

Personally, I feel that the basic lesson to draw from the 2nd world war and its causes is that children should be well trained in the humanities, so that they can grow to become responsible citizens who can distinguish between different types of people, and realize when they're being duped in the name of religion/identity/class/national feeling. In the present world scenario however, I've to regrettably say that the liberal arts, social sciences and literature is being ignored for a more "career oriented" or "focused" education, to the general detriment of society.

Quite right Ritwik, a thing like you have suggested was eveident when i visited Belgium and couple of years ago, where school children are required to visit Brendonk labour camp which was used for slave labour during the 2ndWW by the germans, this at least gives the young people an idea of what went at that time and can never take place again.

 

[sachin]

Well considering that most of the passionate Footbll supporters are 'ethnics' there isn't going to be to many Nazi's running around.If we ever won the World Cup then even though there would probably be alot of Vandalism i think it would be worth the glory that is the WC.

 

[Englishandproud]

If we ever won the World Cup then even though there would probably be alot of Vandalism i think it would be worth the glory that is the WC.

I bet you wouldn't be pleased if it were your property being vandalised though.