Graeme Swann retires

[War]

I encourage you to check back ENG's test record under Nasser Hussain, since to say White played in a "bad team" is simply wrong.

After ENG lost home/away series in 1999 to NZ/SA, to be termed the worst test team in the world - ENG between 2000 - 2003 (Hussain's last series as captain vs S Africa, before Vaughan took over) - ENG lost just three test series. Two of those being vs the AUS who blasted everyone & one in India 2001.

How could this be the record of a bad team?

The India 2001 series due to circumstances i mentioned before also, ENG did well to lose just 1-0 with a second string team even. Especially when you consider IND had beaten AUS @ home the year before.

A team can't loose just 3 test series in 3 years, while using a a player like White, not being good enough to bat @ # 7. Such a team record clearly vindicated Hussain & coach Fletcher's constant use of White in that position.

If White was playing after Flintoff retired in 2009, he could easily have batted @ # 7, being the all-rounder & given Strauss/Cook the option of 5 bowlers.

However under no circumstances could Bresnan be played as a # 7 all-rounder under Hussain. The fact that Flower & selectors never tried it over the past 4 years & only recently attempted to find an all-rounder @ # 7 with Woakes & Stokes - should give you indication of how the ENG hierarchy viewed Bresnan's capabilities to be a test match all-rounder.


While you may want to critique White for not scoring more hundreds/taking more wickets - you may also want to consider how his injury record affected this.

Like Flintoff, White missed a good 15 tests between 2000-2003 due to injuries. And i recall, it always took him a few tests to fully get his batting & bowling back to peak condition after coming back from a lay-off.

So although he averaged 28 with the bat, 36 with the ball during his peak years - he was clearly better than those numbers. This is why ENG consistently used him in all-rounder role, to enable them to accommodate 5 bowlers.

After retiring from ENG duty after the 2003 world cup & giving up bowling (the cause of many of his injuries) his batting was competent enough for Yorkshire to use him as an opener in county cricket for a couple years with solid success.

I could never see Broad & Bresnan being used as a top-order batsman for their counties & its a clear example why their batting abilities is no where close White - despite the stats.

Sometimes in cricket my friend, you got to look beyond the stats & understand different dynamics of players progression and abilities.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

afridi was probably a better test all-rounder than white. i'll leave people to make of that what they want.

 

[ste_mc_efc]

The advent of t20 probably ruined his test career. In a parallel universe Afridi is probably a top 5 all time all rounder.

 

[Owzat]

Let's not get carries away with Stokes being an adequate replacement for Flintoff, there is still a lot we must see. I remember a time when Broad was supposedly an adequate replacement too.

Anyone who can bat, make a decent hundred and of course bowl is lined up as the next Flintoff, or the next Botham depending on whether you consider Flintoff and Botham level in terms of levels reached - I do not.


A brief note on the White debate, he was decent but not a lot more, but since this has nothing to do with Swann I don't know why the thread has gone off topic to Broad and White and all-rounders.



So back on topic, Swann did a good job for England, the shame is England took so long to pick him, of course their obsession with what the wheelie bin and left arm could offer didn't help his case (for selection)

Truth is though that, while having a decent record against India and Sri Lanka, Swann didn't have a good record against Australia or South Africa and his average against the better sides was fairly ordinary, helped by series in Sri Lanka and India

vs AUS/IND/SAF/SRL : 156 wkts @ 34.77. BB 6/82, 5wi x9, 10wm x1 (SR 67.96, ER 3.07)

vs BAN/NZL/PAK/WIN : 99 wkts @ 22.40. BB 6/65, 5wi x8, 10wm x2 (SR 47.95, ER 2.80)

in India : 28 wkts @ 28.96 (5wi x1)
in Sri Lanka : 16 wkts @ 22.19 (5wi x2, 10wm x1)
vs AUS/IND/SAF/SRL not in India/Sri Lanka : 112 wkts @ 38.02 (5wi x6)

I've put Pakistan in the weaker category of Test sides, partly because of the series in UAE where spin was king (13 wkts @ 25.08) and because they were generally not great in recent times despite winning in UAE.



What I find ironic is Swann getting narky about the media focus on his comments, well he was the one made the comments they are focusing on. If he'd resisted temptation to have digs no one would continue to dig.

More ironic is Swann making comments about people being up their own **** and Pietersen then coming out and saying he'd continue to play the way he's always played! Classic.

BBC Sport - Ashes 2013-14: Graeme Swann upset by retirement coverage

Swann should lay down the shovel and stop digging himself into a hole, I think most saw through his thin attempts to veil what he meant. I mean how dim does he think people are? Why would he comment on other country's players being up themselves, bar possibly those he's currently playing?

If he'd wanted to retire with DIGNITY he should have waited until the end of the series and kept his bitterness to himself. Many a time I've resisted the urge to reply to unsavoury e-mails with a stinging retort, and deleted text, retyped and several goes later sent something much different or nothing at all.

Sad truth is those who indulge in digs just waste everyone's time one way or another. Someone suggested our team had made a mistake, I replied with a "thank you for the feedback.........." and pointed out the information we'd been accused of not providing had not been provided to us.

Of course I could have pointed out if they'd done their job properly, as was accused of us, then the information would have been obtained at first point of contact - THEM! Point is sometimes you have to release bottled up frustration at a later point, although whichever sadact did ring up his grandmother wants shooting He's lowered himself to the level of the media and is still going down all guns blazing, excuse the change of metaphor from digging.

Maybe the truth is his comments might equally be applied to Swann himself (about his "up" location) Seems the whole England team consider themselves much better than they are, so when chips are down they don't stand up and be counted - not until it's way too late.

Like Liverpool not having won this season when they've gone behind (P6 W0 D3 L3), maybe England don't have the resolve when the fight is taken to them. Be the sign of true/quality champions in football, equally in cricket. If you weed out the ordinary results, any time England face a challenge they often aren't up to it.

Last Ashes England won that was a serious challenge? Arguably 08/09, probably 04/05. Reckon the only two series Michael Yawn won that were worth much were the last two England had to fight hard for, and won. (arguably of course)

 

[surendar]

afridi was probably a better test all-rounder than white. i'll leave people to make of that what they want.

And Vettori! Have followed White but he is not any special. He is a fair player who can contribute, that's it. Not any impactful like how other ARs make.

 

[ste_mc_efc]

Truth is though that, while having a decent record against India and Sri Lanka, Swann didn't have a good record against Australia or South Africa and his average against the better sides was fairly ordinary, helped by series in Sri Lanka and India

vs AUS/IND/SAF/SRL : 156 wkts @ 34.77. BB 6/82, 5wi x9, 10wm x1 (SR 67.96, ER 3.07)

vs BAN/NZL/PAK/WIN : 99 wkts @ 22.40. BB 6/65, 5wi x8, 10wm x2 (SR 47.95, ER 2.80)

in India : 28 wkts @ 28.96 (5wi x1)
in Sri Lanka : 16 wkts @ 22.19 (5wi x2, 10wm x1)
vs AUS/IND/SAF/SRL not in India/Sri Lanka : 112 wkts @ 38.02 (5wi x6)

I think this is not a fair way of looking at it.

his average in australia is 52. His average in South africa 32. Everywhere else it is sub 30, and in a lot of places it's sub 25. He really struggled in one country, which brings his average for that grouping right down.

Of course those are the more spin friendly places where he did well but his record there is good.

when doing a statistical analysis of things it's better to remove one large outlier, than 2 smaller ones. It's not fair to discount the wickets he took in India and Sri Lanka, and not do the same for Australia.

what's his average versus Australia, India, Sri Lanka and AF not in Australia as well not in sri lanka/India?

 

[cricket_icon]

Just because you met a ton of English fans, who may have made that incorrect assertion of Broad - doesn't mean that is how the majority of ENG fans felt about how Broad's all-rounder credentials.

I'm very confident that wasn't the case. ENG regular sky sports commentary team of Ian Ward, David Gower, Botham, David Lloyd, Atherton, Hussain wasn't saying that about Broad ever - nor was the notable ENG cricket journalist such as J Agnew, Boycott, George Dobell, David Hoops, Syd Berry, Paul Newman, Lawrence Booth, Tom Fordyce, Simon Hughes...

Have you read every single article ever published on cricket? No? Well then I'm sure I know what I read.

And what are you talking about? Some of the Sky pundits were regularly ranking Broad as a soon to be very good allrounder, they may not have used the term "the next Freddy" but they weren't too far off. Especially during those rare excellent innings with the bat. Heck I remember a young Broad, aged 19 or 20 maybe, playing against Pakistan and the England commentating team couldn't have enough of him. They kept talking about his potential as a great fast bowler and allrounder.

But let's not go off topic, as I said already, Swann's deciison to retire was elfish, no matter how good he has been for the team, he is not protected from such criticisms and truths. Add to that the failing of almost all batsmen (KP did ok today), Bell/Root/Stokes have done well in patches but Anderson and Bresnan and Tremlett had looked hopeless, broad had looked decent in phases and Trott...well where do we start with that?

England, as I mentioned in a separate thread have cracked under pressure. The signs were there and the departure of Swann is the final nail in the coffin.

Not to mention all these rumours about mutiny against Cook, Cook's own insecurities and private meetings with players and Swann's comments. This series has deteriorated into a farce.

 

[War]

Have you read every single article ever published on cricket? No? Well then I'm sure I know what I read.

And what are you talking about? Some of the Sky pundits were regularly ranking Broad as a soon to be very good allrounder, they may not have used the term "the next Freddy" but they weren't too far off. Especially during those rare excellent innings with the bat. Heck I remember a young Broad, aged 19 or 20 maybe, playing against Pakistan and the England commentating team couldn't have enough of him. They kept talking about his potential as a great fast bowler and allrounder.

I am debating that you read that someone said that about Broad, i was debating whether it was the unanimous verdict by the majority of ENG fans and media. And, as i far i know - it wasn't.

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afridi was probably a better test all-rounder than white. i'll leave people to make of that what they want.

He probably was in a pure talent sense, Afridi should have been the best spin bowling all-rounder in tests since Richie Benaud. But cricket is 90% in the brain & 10 % talent & as most would attest Afridi failed the 90% miserably throughout his career.