Greatest keeper batsman - Gilchrist or Sangakkara?

[War]

Now that Sangakkara has recently retired, I think this is interesting topic to discuss and in hindsight i believe Sangakkara was better modern keeper/bat since 2000 and if you picked an all-time XI & needed a keeper with strongest batting prowess in test history it has to be Kumar.

GILCHRIST

The thing with Gilchrist as an Australian fan during the glory days is that when he started from like 1999-2005, he really did bring a new dimension to the roll of the keeper making runs consistently although before him you had guys like Les Ames, Alec Stewart, Dennis Lindsay, Jeff Dujon, Andy Flower.

But clearly before Gilly more teams were still of the default view of picking a keeper for his glove-work prowess first & batting second.

Gilchrist at his absolutely best in tests was the aforementioned debut home series vs Pakistan 1999 to the N Zealand tour in 2005. This period his record was Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo : 68 tests, 4452 runs, 55.65 average, 15 hundreds.

At this point everyone in world cricket glorified Gilly quite aptly as the role changing cricketer and would always pick him in all time XIs. Fact remains no team since Gilchrist would really pick a keeper if he can't average 35-40+ with the bat.

However things change drastically at the back end of Gilly's career starting with the famous 2005 Ashes. England famous pace attack lead by Flintoff found a way to keep him quiet, by bowling around the wicket consistently, tucking him up for room & Gilchrist suddenly looked normal.

For the remaining 3 years of his career many teams tried this tactic (most notably S Africa during 2005/06 home/away tests) & he was never the same again as his average dropped almost 10 points and he only scored 2 more test centuries.

It makes you wonder if teams had formulated that tactic earlier if his career would have been so dominant, especially when you consider in his first test match he was bowled by Shoaib Akhtar via the around the wicket angle tactic:

My suspicion since Gilly's retirement is that he wouldn't have been so dominant if bowlers had homed in on that weakness earlier in the 2000s.

In a lot of ways the 1999-2005 period was the dark ages period of the 2000s when wickets worldwide wide were so flat and many of the 1990s top bowling attacks had either retired of was in decline.

Australia's attack was the only consistently good bowling attack worldwide for a long time & Gilchrist feasted on that.

A clue of how Gilchrist might have performed if he faced better quicks from 1999-2005, lies in his record in Asia during this period. In 10 tests on famous tours to India in 2001 & 2004, Sri Lanka 2004 his record was 543 runs at 31 with 3 hundreds - Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Outside of those 3 superb hundreds, he has a lot of low scores & his general play versus the high quality spin of Harbhajan/Kumble/Murali was very much hit or miss - not much of middle ground (except for that 49 he scored in the Chennai 2004 test).

You consider all these factors and I don't think if Gilchrist faced sterner attacks (pace) during his test career he would have averaged 50+ at all. Would have still played destructive game changing innings, but not on the level where he would have been elevated to all-time great status.

Sangakkara:

The basic plain stats of Sangakkara's career says he averaged 40 while keeping and 66 when not keeping - Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

This is sort of misleading because the discrepancies between Kumar's batting ability wasn't that big when keeping and not keeping.

I just think Sangakkara suffered a bit with combining the # 3 batting & keeping in tests. Those are two highly important teams roles that one person can't do in the longer format.

After Sanga last kept in test in 2008, he always kept in ODI/T20 until retirement and did the # 3 batting + keeping role excellently. So i reckon if the balance of the SRI team in test could have allowed Sanga to bat @ # 5 (instead of needing him to bat @ # 3) like Andy Flower did for ZIM in the 1990s/early 2000s with great success - Sangakkara could have easily replicated his batting form in that position.

 

[Markkkkk]

BJ Watling

 

[PokerAce]

I don't think one could definitely settle on either as being definitely greater than the other. Both have good arguments going for them, not to mention tht they are two completely different batsmen and had completely different roles in the sides.

I would actually like to throw in the name of Andy Flower in the keeper batsman debate. Add to this the fact that Flower played for a minnow, and his 50+ test average takes a very high value.

I would also throw in MSD in that list. MSD's overall contribution is greater than the sum of its parts, so to speak, and arguably MSD has been the greatest finisher of the past 8 years any side has seen. Not to mention that MSD is the only captain ever to have won every major trophy there is to win as Captain.

EDIT - Why the is M.I.N.N.O.W bleeped out.

 

[War]

I don't think one could definitely settle on either as being definitely greater than the other. Both have good arguments going for them, not to mention tht they are two completely different batsmen and had completely different roles in the sides.

I would actually like to throw in the name of Andy Flower in the keeper batsman debate. Add to this the fact that Flower played for a ******, and his 50+ test average takes a very high value.

I would also throw in MSD in that list. MSD's overall contribution is greater than the sum of its parts, so to speak, and arguably MSD has been the greatest finisher of the past 8 years any side has seen. Not to mention that MSD is the only captain ever to have won every major trophy there is to win as Captain.

EDIT - Why the is M.I.N.N.O.W bleeped out.

Well yes that's why i broke down the dynamics respective roles they both player as keeper/batsmen for AUS & SRI & suggested why Gilchrist's decline in form post 2005 Ashes means he can't be viewed as highly as he was at the peak of his powers (regularly been considered to be the keeper in a all-time cricket XI).

Flower and Sangakkara's batting ability is very close. They are easily the two best keepers in test cricket history with the greatest batting ability, but I'd give Sangakkara the edge on keeping skills based on his extensive work keeping to Murali and other SRI spinners.

Dhoni wouldn't be in this discussion since I was more referring to test cricket.

 

[Satan666]

I don't think one could definitely settle on either as being definitely greater than the other. Both have good arguments going for them, not to mention tht they are two completely different batsmen and had completely different roles in the sides.

I would actually like to throw in the name of Andy Flower in the keeper batsman debate. Add to this the fact that Flower played for a ******, and his 50+ test average takes a very high value.

I would also throw in MSD in that list. MSD's overall contribution is greater than the sum of its parts, so to speak, and arguably MSD has been the greatest finisher of the past 8 years any side has seen. Not to mention that MSD is the only captain ever to have won every major trophy there is to win as Captain.

EDIT - Why the is M.I.N.N.O.W bleeped out.

First time in the last year or so I agree with most of the points youve stated.

In test cricket I also think Andy Flower was the better batsman and keeper, that being said would take Gilchrist in my final test 11 anyday since Aussie dominance coincided when I actually followed every cricket match and Gilchrist seemed the only Aussie at the time with some level of decency and honesty at the time, even though the soft ball issue at the WC in the Caribbean is still questionable, however for tests Gilchrist makes my 11. Also keeping to Warne and Lee was a hell of a job! Wrt thread when it comes to test cricket Sanga for me will always be regarded as an extraordinary batsman not batsman/keeper, so will go with Gilchrist.

Now for ODI gonna chose MSD primarily because of his skills as one of the best ODI finishers ever, adaptability in the batting lineup and captaincy skills. Wrt thread Gilchrist is above Sanga when it comes to ODI!

 

[Satan666]

Kinda outside of the thread but James Foster is the best wicketkeeper I have seen thus far, whatever became of him?

 

[War]

Kinda outside of the thread but James Foster is the best wicketkeeper I have seen thus far, whatever became of him?

Oh yes good observation, Foster certainly the best pure gloves-man since Ian Healy retired. He is still captaining and keeper for Essex.

Foster is probably the best example of the post Gilchrist phenomenon i'd say. After Alec Stewart retired England rotated a lot of keepers across various formats - Chris Read, Geraint Jones, Phil Mustard, Tim Ambrose, Steven Davies, Craig Kieswetter, Prior twice before he actually became good because they wanted a guy who could bat.

Considering the Jack Russell played so much tests in the 90s in another era Foster would have certainly played more tests for England.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

Sangakkara probably but it is a pretty tricky question because to a degree it's like comparing apples and oranges.

Sangakkara wasn't keeping when he was at his best with the bat but in all honesty it's difficult to divorce yourself from the idea that this is a batsman that should be regarded alongside Ponting, Tendulkar, Dravid, Kallis and Lara as the finest of his era. Gilchrist can't compete with that.

Gilchrist does need bonus points for inventing the role though, I think both Dhoni and Sangakkara surpassed him as ODI keeper-batsmen, but just like Jayasuriya has been surpassed by loads of aggressive openers I still think he deserves some credit for being the innovator. Also while Gilly was technically an all-rounder he still feels like the purer option because Sanga basically kept part-time over his career.

objectively on glovework I think sangakkara was a little silkier, but maybe that was just him being flashy and standing up to stumps when Vaas was bowling and keeping to Murali.

 

[PokerAce]

^Great Post.

 

[War]

Sangakkara probably but it is a pretty tricky question because to a degree it's like comparing apples and oranges.

Sangakkara wasn't keeping when he was at his best with the bat but in all honesty it's difficult to divorce yourself from the idea that this is a batsman that should be regarded alongside Ponting, Tendulkar, Dravid, Kallis and Lara as the finest of his era. Gilchrist can't compete with that.

Gilchrist does need bonus points for inventing the role though, I think both Dhoni and Sangakkara surpassed him as ODI keeper-batsmen, but just like Jayasuriya has been surpassed by loads of aggressive openers I still think he deserves some credit for being the innovator. Also while Gilly was technically an all-rounder he still feels like the purer option because Sanga basically kept part-time over his career.

objectively on glovework I think sangakkara was a little silkier, but maybe that was just him being flashy and standing up to stumps when Vaas was bowling and keeping to Murali.

SBH what's up my friend, thought you abandoned PC.

Well i know you probably the only established Sri Lanka fan on this side, but as you said "Sanga basically kept part-time over his career" - but that is technically only in tests. In ODIs & T20 up until retirement he kept in both formats, batted @ # 3 or 4 until his final game & his batting success was the typical excellence. 360 or 404 ODIs as keeper with 23 of his 25 hundreds at a higher overall average & all T20 internationals.

After Hashan Tillikaratne captaincy tenure ended, Kumar was SRI best batsman, keeper & # 3 in tests. But unlike the shorter formats its an impossible job to do all 3 in a test match unlike the shorter formats, this why the test captaincy rotated between Mahela, Dilshan & Mathews - while P Jayawardene, Chandimal, Dickwella (spell check) have had runs keeping in tests.


Obviously if you picking the best team of the last 25 years or all-time it would indeed look a bit odd to bat Sangakkara @ 7 - because such a hypothetical team middle order will have Bradman/Tendulkar/Richards/Sobers/G Pollock/Lara/Kallis/Ponting/G Chappell/Miandad as options.

But you don't have a choice really, you either do that or pick the best pure glovesman or all time/last 25 years in such a team i.e Allan Knott/Godfrey Evans/Ian Healy.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

yeah, in ODIs I suppose it's sanga with Gilchrists only ace in the hole being that he was a trailblazer in taking the role to new heights. Sanga is also the kind of ODI batsman that's not very ODI like, a bit like Ponting who is usually criminally overlooked as a great in the format purely because consistent, well paced, scoring at the top of the order doesn't really excite like someone who's able to hit a 30 ball 50.

HELLO WAR, nah, I sort of abandoned it a little, to be quite honest I went through a hellish break up with my girlfriend and have been forgoing watching sport for doing lots alcohol and erm... other stuff that as a moderator I could not possibly condone.

Probably would have been back sooner had the ashes not been the main focus of summer because I found it a bit boring, also finding it a wee bit difficult to get excited about anyone in cricket right now, you'd have to say the class of 2015 would be routed by the sort of players still kicking about in 2005.

 

[IceAgeComing]

Gilchrist is the better all-round option, but Sangakarra was the better batsman, if you get my drift. Sangakarra turned into one of the best batsmen of his generation (I'd rank him second, behind Lara and ahead of Tendulkar) but he wasn't great until he gave the gloves to someone else. Gilchrist was better playing the keeper-batsman role. This is judged on not watching a great deal of their careers mind, so it may be a little skewed.

 

[Satan666]

Gilchrist is the better all-round option, but Sangakarra was the better batsman, if you get my drift. Sangakarra turned into one of the best batsmen of his generation (I'd rank him second, behind Lara and ahead of Tendulkar) but he wasn't great until he gave the gloves to someone else. Gilchrist was better playing the keeper-batsman role. This is judged on not watching a great deal of their careers mind, so it may be a little skewed.

Disguised on purpose? Probably I am misunderstanding you? Do you mean Lara, Sanga and Tendulkar in that order?

For some reason I feel similar when thinking of Sangakara, whenever I saw him bat he didnt look like a Ponting/Sachin/Lara but he always seemed to score runs, guess I never followed Sri Lankan cricket much thats why.

 

[Satan666]

yeah, in ODIs I suppose it's sanga with Gilchrists only ace in the hole being that he was a trailblazer in taking the role to new heights. Sanga is also the kind of ODI batsman that's not very ODI like, a bit like Ponting who is usually criminally overlooked as a great in the format purely because consistent, well paced, scoring at the top of the order doesn't really excite like someone who's able to hit a 30 ball 50.

HELLO WAR, nah, I sort of abandoned it a little, to be quite honest I went through a hellish break up with my girlfriend and have been forgoing watching sport for doing lots alcohol and erm... other stuff that as a moderator I could not possibly condone.

Probably would have been back sooner had the ashes not been the main focus of summer because I found it a bit boring, also finding it a wee bit difficult to get excited about anyone in cricket right now, you'd have to say the class of 2015 would be routed by the sort of players still kicking about in 2005.

So I take it youre back for good then. My days are certainly numbered now.

 

[War]

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