ICC News: Restructuring the ICC, BCCI Influence & more

[CerealKiller]

DO you know how many lives are lost in the border, how many villages affected, how much of a disservice it would be to those souls!

Every time this terrorism thing comes up, you always assume that it's all Pakistan's fault. Now, I don't want to go way off-topic which could lead to you bringing up Dawood Ibrahim, Hafiz Syed and who not, but I'll just let you know that in the border skirmishes that have been going on since July last year, according to official data from both governments, the Indian border forces have killed more people than the Pakistani Rangers. So, when you say that it would be a disservice to those souls playing cricket between India and Pakistan, I hope you're referring to the martyred from both sides, and not just the Indian ones.
@War you have a lot of knowledge about the game, and I respect you for that, but India-Pakistan is much different from any other sporting rivalry. It's not just simple "government drama". There are a lot of things involved. You aren't very informed on this topic, so I suggest you should do some research before labelling everything as simply "government drama".
Cheers.

 

[War]

@grkrama @talahayat
Yes fellas, while I by no means profess to be an expert on the dynamics of tension of IND/PAK outside the world of cricket - when i said "Government drama's" I was indeed referencing that terrorism point you guys have mentioned here that like any person I would hear about on the news by default ever so often.

I would concede the term "government drama's" probably didn't encapsulate the point well - but by no means trying to underplay the tensions and terrorism.

All I'm basically pointing out is as Bazid Khan mentioned these non cricket issues have been known since 2008 & the cricket world was well are a IND/PAK bilateral series was not likely to happen unless that eased down considerably. Just like how IND/PAK didn't play a test series between 1989-1999 and IND famous 2004 tour to PAK was 1st since the 1980s (although i recall a brief ODI series in PAK 97) - it was seemingly clearly we were in another period like this.

Thus the question is, did the BCCI as explained before just promise PCB these 6 series from 2015-2023 simply to get them to vote for BIG 3 - when they obviously knew the realities of the political/country tension made that decision way above their pay grade.

If the answer to that is yes, it costing the PCB money that they were basically their revenue intake on based on reluctantly supporting the BIG 3 and that is cricket problem which PCB can't afford considering they already can't host international cricket in PAK.[/USER]

 

[War]

Oh please as if FTPs are not changed all the time, new tours put in, old tours postponed modified, hell WI even took it to a new level when they left one midway, without so much as a slap on the wrist ! But it was BCCI that suffered so its all alright, isn't it?

The key element in all of this is MoU, and depending on that some tentative schedule may have been drawn up, those are always subject to change, for various issues including security. Take the recently postponed Aus tour to Bangladesh for instance.

BCCI signed an MoU to play Pakistan, but in the MoU, didn't commit to playing one in 2015 and no dates are laid down in the MoU itself. So you can hold up the FTP all you want, but those are always subject to change for all kinds of issues, including security. If either side PCB or BCCI feel the security measures are not in place where ever the matches are to be held, then the Tour will not take place, and it will not contradict the MoU in anyway.

So frankly this is a non issue right now.

Also the fact that you dismiss govt. intervention on both sides as 'drama' shows just how completely clueless you are about the dynamics in the region, so the less you involve yourself with this the better. Honestly.

I spoke to other posters in above posts above the non-bold part of these comment, so i'm a just address what in bold.

No team in current MOU arrangement in FTP or in previous ICC mandated FTP every announces series dates/venues etc right way. So that point makes no sense.

You just agree in month period time-line, how much test/odi/T20s you will play based on conversation with your respective broadcasters, sponsors etc - then as tours gets closer (usually withing two months) you get exact venues and dates.

Only the Ashes I know of where a series schedule and exact dates is known at least a year in advance in all my years of watching cricket.

If IND decide not to tour WI next year or sue them because of that pull out, I believe IND has every right not to based on the evidence I've seen based on how WICB acted. AUS pulling out of BANG was quite understandable given the sudden security threat and warning from their government.

That was very similar to AUS not wanting to visit SRI during 1996 W-Cup or NZ leaving their tour to PAK half-way in 2002 for identical reasons

 

[CerealKiller]

I

@grkrama @talalhussain Yes fellas, while I by no means profess to be an expert on the dynamics of tension of IND/PAK outside the world of cricket - when i said "Government drama's" I was indeed referencing that terrorism point you guys have mentioned here that like any person I would hear about on the news by default ever so often.

I would concede the term "government drama's" probably didn't encapsulate the point well - but by no means trying to underplay the tensions and terrorism.

All I'm basically pointing out is as Bazid Khan mentioned these non cricket issues have been known since 2008 & the cricket world was well are a IND/PAK bilateral series was not likely to happen unless that eased down considerably. Just like how IND/PAK didn't play a test series between 1989-1999 and IND famous 2004 tour to PAK was 1st since the 1980s (although i recall a brief ODI series in PAK 97) - it was seemingly clearly we were in another period like this.

Thus the question is, did the BCCI as explained before just promise PCB these 6 series simply to get them to vote for BIG 3 - when they obviously knew the realities of the political/country tension made that decision way above their pay grade.

If the answer to that is yes, it costing the PCB money that they were basically their revenue intake on based on reluctantly supporting the BIG 3 and that is cricket problem which PCB can't afford considering they already can't host international cricket in PAK.

You tagged the wrong person.
But yes, it is strange that the BCCI said they would play 6 series with us when they knew they couldn't guarantee anything. The PCB might take legal action against them for the massive economic losses they suffered, although that would put any other hopes of a series happening in the foreseeable future to rest.

 

[War]

I

You tagged the wrong person.
But yes, it is strange that the BCCI said they would play 6 series with us when they knew they couldn't guarantee anything. The PCB might take legal action against them for the massive economic losses they suffered, although that would put any other hopes of a series happening in the foreseeable future to rest.

Yea and given the laughable and ridiculous conflict of interests the Big 3 has created where the BCCI president is also ICC president - there is no independent ICC for PCB to even taken this case to. If they do this, BCCI was just not play them at all.

Plus legally i think the BCCI would be safe based on my understanding how how the "force majeure" clause works in such contractual arrangements, which prevents a country from having legal action taken against them due to unavoidable factors.

Might be hope to play some of those 6 series on foreign territory though, as I've seen some people suggest, here in England on this forum

 

[Aoun13]

News and Analysis : Pakistan v India 2015-16 | Bazid: PCB should stand firm on MoU | Cricket videos, MP3, podcasts, cricket audio | ESPN Cricinfo

Bazid Khan is 100% on the ball & has raised a very valid point about the validity and strength new MOU arrangements that the "Big 3" implemented to replace the ICC mandated tours in the FTP.

As most would know Pakistan was probably the biggest opponent of the Big 3 takeover right down to the end & only reason they agreed was because India promised them 6 series over the new FTP cycle.

This is looking like an obvious bluff now... @Rehan_24 @sami ullah khan @Sami Kumar @send2yaari @talahayat

This promised FTP thing is like taking cricket back to stone age.
What's the need of ICC when countries will decide to play each other based on revenues and politics. It was pretty obvious that BCCI will not play any series unless it suits them, the moment Mr.Najam Sethi came back without a legal proof of this MoU.

 

[PokerAce]

@War I read that last post where you quoted me and I didn't get what you are saying. You say most FTP tours are agreed within months and not years, and yeah so ... ? Regardless of when tours are agreed, the FTP is always subject to last minute changes. Like Australia pulling out of Bangladesh.

So regardless of when the India-Pak series was pencilled in on that FTP, it like all other tours is subject to security clearances, and last minute adjustments. So if it doesn't go through right now, becuase either BCCI or PCB are not comfortable with the security or any other issue, the tour will not happen.

The point is that this tour not going ahead in December will still not violate the MoU as the MoU doesnt stipulate that a series must take place in 2015. BCCI and PCB have agreed to play each other, and when the things fall in place, including clearances from both govts., the series will take place.

 

[grkrama]

I hope you're referring to the martyred from both sides, and not just the Indian ones.

Ofcourse its a bloodshed which neither of our country deserves but is happening! So we need to sort that out before getting back to hosting each other in sporting ties!

 

[grkrama]

Thus the question is, did the BCCI as explained before just promise PCB these 6 series from 2015-2023 simply to get them to vote for BIG 3 - when they obviously knew the realities of the political/country tension made that decision way above their pay grade.

Its not bcci alone, even PCB knows this is above their pay grade! Everyone knew that as 2 pvt sport bodies they dont have power to over rules nature and political powers!

And all promises made are subject to everything falling under place! Do you really expect Nsrinivasan, shashant manohar and Shaharyar Khan to change political climate between the two countries ?

yes its a pity the cricket cant take place, ya but thats about it, Due to political and regional tension, bilateral cricket between two nations didn't take place, Big deal! Move on there is plenty of cricket as it is!

 

[CerealKiller]

Exactly. No one will die because Pakistan and India don't play each other. I'd like the PCB to focus on other aspects of Pakistani cricket, like the PSL, improving domestic cricket and strange selection policies rather than run after India for a series like beggars.

 

[PokerAce]

I think in conclusion I will say that the chances of a series have improved in the past two weeks, with India and Pakistan re-opening talks. I was not exactly thrilled about the December series once I learned that it would not have tests, and just 3 ODIs and 2T20s. T20s are always a side show and ODIs can be a good series (as Sahara Cup in the 90s showed), however just 3 ODIs was always going to make it a nothing series. So if this series doesn't take place it would not be a big deal.

As talks go on, perhaps a summer series in England with tests and ODIs would make it a much better series. I would rather hold out for that one, than have a hurried pointless 3 ODI series in SL.

 

[CerealKiller]

As talks go on, perhaps a summer series in England with tests and ODIs would make it a much better series.

That's not going to happen. England have a super packed schedule.

 

[War]

@War I read that last post where you quoted me and I didn't get what you are saying. You say most FTP tours are agreed within months and not years, and yeah so ... ? Regardless of when tours are agreed, the FTP is always subject to last minute changes. Like Australia pulling out of Bangladesh.

So regardless of when the India-Pak series was pencilled in on that FTP, it like all other tours is subject to security clearances, and last minute adjustments. So if it doesn't go through right now, becuase either BCCI or PCB are not comfortable with the security or any other issue, the tour will not happen.

The point is that this tour not going ahead in December will still not violate the MoU as the MoU doesnt stipulate that a series must take place in 2015. BCCI and PCB have agreed to play each other, and when the things fall in place, including clearances from both govts., the series will take place.

Just to clarify you said this: "BCCI signed an MoU to play Pakistan, but in the MoU, didn't commit to playing one in 2015 and no dates are laid down in the MoU itself."

As i was showing you in FTP link, the first of the 6 series that BCCI told they will play against PAK between 2015-2023 is this month, which was agreed to since 2014. What i was saying the dates/venues for the series as it is with many series would not have been announced until or a month or two ago if it wasn't for the current political tensions.

That is different to the AUS pulling out of BANG because that was a sudden unknown outside issue which nobody expected. As i said before IND/PAK political tension/uncertainty over playing a bilateral series has been known to the entire cricket world since 2008.

We all know PCB is cricket board than runs on a loss due to the fact that they can't host games in PAK & but the UAE. So the issue with this is whether the BCCI just because they were desperate to get the "Big 3" implemented dangled the carrot at PCB (who were staunchly objecting to sign off on Big 3 changes) of these promised 6 series - when they knew it was out of their control.

One can call PCB gullible, but last i checked up until Big 3 set-up they were not clamoring to play IND, they knew the reality. 6 series vs IND would help come out of the red financially, so by this series not coming off their predicted increaes in revenues takes a substantial hit. @grkrama @talahayat @Rehan_24 @send2yaari

 

[War]

That's not going to happen. England have a super packed schedule.

Well it doesn't necessary have to affect England schedule to be fair. I recall in 2010 when PAK came, ENG hosted BANG first, then AUS/PAK had their two tests afterwards, before the 4 tests series vs PAK.

So I think there is a possibility that a IND/PAK 2 tests could be fit if ECB/BCCI/PAK can agree after ENG host hosts SRI.

 

[PokerAce]

Just to clarify you said this: "BCCI signed an MoU to play Pakistan, but in the MoU, didn't commit to playing one in 2015 and no dates are laid down in the MoU itself."

As i was showing you in FTP link, the first of the 6 series that BCCI told they will play against PAK between 2015-2023 is this month, which was agreed to since 2014. What i was saying the dates/venues for the series as it is with many series would not have been announced until or a month or two ago if it wasn't for the current political tensions.

That is different to the AUS pulling out of BANG because that was a sudden unknown outside issue which nobody expected. As i said before IND/PAK political tension/uncertainty over playing a bilateral series has been known to the entire cricket world since 2008.

We all know PCB is cricket board than runs on a loss due to the fact that they can't host games in PAK & but the UAE. So the issue with this is whether the BCCI just because they were desperate to get the "Big 3" implemented dangled the carrot at PCB (who were staunchly objecting to sign off on Big 3 changes) of these promised 6 series - when they knew it was out of their control.

One can call PCB gullible, but last i checked up until Big 3 set-up they were not clamoring to play IND, they knew the reality. 6 series vs IND would help come out of the red financially, so by this series not coming off their predicted increaes in revenues takes a substantial hit. @grkrama @talahayat @Rehan_24 @send2yaari

But agreed to where? In which document? Not in the MoU for sure. Was it a verbal agreement? If it was written then where is the agreement? Where is this agreement, which says the first of the MoU stipulated series will be in December?

Secondly, even if there was an agreement, or with regard to the MoU itself, its but obvious, that all agreements regarding cricketing tours are subject to govt. permissions, and security clearances, India-Pak series more than any other perhaps.

So PCB cannot suddenly say oh we didn't know that govt. permission would be required and could later on be an issue. PCB was well aware of the dynamics of holding an India-Pak series, and all the red tape it has to go through, and often there are genuine security issues, when it entered into this MoU/agreement with BCCI. So you can't say, BCCI fooled PCB into signing for the big three by dangling this carrot before them.

This is ignoring the ethical issues that arise from this presumption to begin with, that PCB effectively sold its vote in return of a money spinning proposition.

PCB was well aware that despite BCCI's promises, it is not the final authority on these matters and the final call will be taken by the govt. Knowing this stipulation PCB agreed to the BCCI proposal. So PCB can hardly now claim being naive as a defence here.

Look the important thing is both boards have shown an intention to play. Govt. clearances will come when they will. Ind-Pak talks have just restarted and so one could always hold out for hope for a govt. permission for a summer series.