ICC Test Rankings = Stupid?

[War]

Another obvious recent hole in the ranking system

'Us losing points seems strange' - Amla | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

"Hashim Amla has said that it was "a difficult one to understand" why South Africa lost points in the ICC rankings after most of their Test series against Bangladesh was washed out. No play was possible for six out of ten days across the two matches, and four in the Dhaka Test alone, leaving the spoils shared.


"You can understand if it's a 1-1 draw then you've played enough cricket to make an impression," Amla said. "Perhaps this is something that can be relooked at from the ICC's perspective. All you'd want is something that is fair and will apply to all teams. Us losing points seems a little strange considering we haven't played a lot of cricket."

 

[cricket_icon]

Yeah, it's a rigid system at times. Shouldn't the fact that neither SA nor Bangladesh got much cricket on a tour which was competitive but washed out be taken into consideration? Maybe the points reduction should have been frozen, with the same happening for other similar series' in the future.

 

[cricket_icon]

I think it would be rather ridiculous to say Pakistan is a better test team than India. India won a test in England and didn't embarrass themselves in Australia either. I only ever see Pakistan play in the sub continent. Unfortunately, these rankings and any ranking system is bollocks. I've for very long said that Cricket needs an overhaul.

Who the bloody hell cares about these ODI series or a random T20? It's like going for a one time watch movie. Have some pop corn or beer and that's that. It's not like a World Cup?

My suggestion is that the ICC needs to divide cricket into two formats.

The Test Championship, spread over two years. (Each team plays the other thrice. Once at home, one away and once neutral)

The ODI Championship, spread over a year. (Each team plays the other thrice. Once at home, one away and once neutral)

That way, every game in every year will lead to an eventuality.

T20 doesn't need an international format. Franchise cricket is enough. Just a World Cup every 4 years.

The only issue with my suggested format is in the tests when teams compete at a neutral venue. It will be hard to get people to come to the ground.

You're saying a test side that can't win a series is better than a test side that has won several series' is some how better? Ok, great logic. Thanks.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

You're saying a test side that can't win a series is better than a test side that has won several series' is some how better? Ok, great logic. Thanks.

Convenient way to put it. It's all about how you perform in 'non-subcontinent' conditions. India have won a test at Lord's, performed rather admirably in Australia, nearly won a couple of tests. Pakistan haven't.

And keep the sarcasm to yourself. It's silly and it's not even well disguised and subtle. Yeah?

 

[CerealKiller]

Convenient way to put it. It's all about how you perform in 'non-subcontinent' conditions. India have won a test at Lord's, performed rather admirably in Australia, nearly won a couple of tests. Pakistan haven't.

And keep the sarcasm to yourself. It's silly and it's not even well disguised and subtle. Yeah?

Pakistan haven't played a test in england or australia for 5 years so you can't judge them based on those performances.
India gets to play in Australia almost every year so obviously they're very used to those conditions and therefore perform better than pakistan who go there every 6-7 years.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

Pakistan haven't played a test in england or australia for 5 years so you can't judge them based on those performances.
India gets to play in Australia almost every year so obviously they're very used to those conditions and therefore perform better than pakistan who go there every 6-7 years.

India play in Australia every year? Which FTP are you following? They play once every 3-4 years. India last played tests in 2014-15 and their next tour down under is 2018-19. Pakistan are going to tour in 2016-17 and then in 2019 as well. You have a habit of posting absolute rubbish to support your fictitious facts.

Also, Pakistan have gone to South Africa in the past five years where conditions are similar and they got absolutely mauled. Pakistan go to New Zealand I believe at the end of the year so let's see how they go. I'd pretty much bet a whitewash.

 

[CerealKiller]

India play in Australia every year? Which FTP are you following? They play once every 3-4 years. India last played tests in 2014-15 and their next tour down under is 2018-19. Pakistan are going to tour in 2016-17 and then in 2019 as well. You have a habit of posting absolute rubbish to support your fictitious facts.

Also, Pakistan have gone to South Africa in the past five years where conditions are similar and they got absolutely mauled. Pakistan go to New Zealand I believe at the end of the year so let's see how they go. I'd pretty much bet a whitewash.

I said almost every year.India toured in 2007/08, 2011/12, then in 2014/15 and will play a limited overs series in 2015/16, while Pakistan toured in 2004/05, then in 2009/10 and will play there in 2016/17.

 

[Aislabie]

Can we all just grow up a little bit around here, please?

India has more cricketers to choose from, more money to pay them with, and more influence over the schedule than anyone else. Pakistan has no home matches, is shunned by India, and yet performs at least equally as well as they do.

The situations are not comparable, and there is no ranking system which can possibly factor this accurately.

End.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

Can we all just grow up a little bit around here, please?

India has more cricketers to choose from, more money to pay them with, and more influence over the schedule than anyone else. Pakistan has no home matches, is shunned by India, and yet performs at least equally as well as they do.

The situations are not comparable, and there is no ranking system which can possibly factor this accurately.

End.

Pakistan performs as well as India?

India has easily been the better team of the two in the past 10-12 years. Pakistan has no home matches and are shunned by India for reasons bigger than cricket. I agree with you that all this influence over FTP's and the constant 'WE make all the money in cricket' attitude is very wrong, but let's not for one second try and compare India and Pakistan on any grounds related to cricket in the past 10 years. India have been streets ahead.

@tahlayat- We are talking test cricket. The preparation for tests and odi's is rather different. I hope you realize that. And in test cricket, apart from South Africa that are very versatile with bat and ball every cricket country almost are 'home ground' bullies. It's not just Pakistan.

 

[Aislabie]

India have been streets ahead.

Last 10 Test series:

||||
away|0-0 draw|-| away|2-1 win
away|2-0 loss|-| away|1-0 win
away|3-1 loss|-| in UAEl|1-1 draw
away|1-0 loss|-| in UAE|2-0 win
away|1-0 loss|-| away|2-0 loss
home|2-0 win|-| in UAE|1-1 draw
home|4-0 win|-| in UAE|1-1 draw
home|2-1 loss|-| away|1-1 draw
home|2-0 win|-| away|3-0 loss
away|4-0 loss|-| away|1-0 loss

Two very comparable tables of recent results there. Of course, if we rewind to the days of Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Ganguly, Dhoni, Kumble, Harbhajan, Zaheer, Srinath then of course India will get good results. But if we're discussing rankings (the purpose of this thread) then results from a decade ago are irrelevant.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

Last 10 Test series:

||||
away|0-0 draw|-| away|2-1 win
away|2-0 loss|-| away|1-0 win
away|3-1 loss|-| in UAEl|1-1 draw
away|1-0 loss|-| in UAE|2-0 win
away|1-0 loss|-| away|2-0 loss
home|2-0 win|-| in UAE|1-1 draw
home|4-0 win|-| in UAE|1-1 draw
home|2-1 loss|-| away|1-1 draw
home|2-0 win|-| away|3-0 loss
away|4-0 loss|-| away|1-0 loss

Two very comparable tables of recent results there. Of course, if we rewind to the days of Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Ganguly, Dhoni, Kumble, Harbhajan, Zaheer, Srinath then of course India will get good results. But if we're discussing rankings (the purpose of this thread) then results from a decade ago are irrelevant.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Aislabie]

Your point was that India is "by streets" the better Test side.

The same India which has won only one Test match in their last five Test series.

Allow me to lay this out more simply still

||
Series won|3/10|3/10
Series drawn|1/10|4/10
Series lost|6/10|3/10

All three of India's series victories came at home, while two of Pakistan;s series victories came in away series.

"Streets ahead". Yeah, right. Get on with your life.

P.S. - I'm entirely neutral in this. I'm an Irish fan above all else, then a straight-up cricket fan. I have no favour for either India or Pakistan.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

Your point was that India is "by streets" the better Test side.

The same India which has won only one Test match in their last five Test series.

Allow me to lay this out more simply still

||
Series won|3/10|3/10
Series drawn|1/10|4/10
Series lost|6/10|3/10

All three of India's series victories came at home, while two of Pakistan;s series victories came in away series.

"Streets ahead". Yeah, right. Get on with your life.

P.S. - I'm entirely neutral in this. I'm an Irish fan above all else, then a straight-up cricket fan. I have no favour for either India or Pakistan.

First of all, your sarcasm and all this 'get on with your life' stuff is quite shallow. Exactly who in the world do you think you are mate?

Second, I don't care whose fan you are and who you support but in this argument, you're being biased. Or, may be I haven't been able to communicate it, so I'm going to try-

Since you've specified you're an Irish supporter, I suppose you're from Ireland. Now, as an Irishman you will know well that conditions in your country are similar to those in England/Wales? Just like conditions are always similar in India, SL and Pak where Pakistan's wins have come.

I've said this before and I will say it again- The challenge for a sub-continent nation is to win tests in England, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand. If you're going to judge an Indian batsman and his scale of growth based on how he performs in conditions he's used to, I feel that system is flawed. I'm absolutely sure that the four nations I've mentioned above treat the sub continent in the same way.

For instance- A test win in these four nations much higher than a series win in SL, UAE or BAN for India. I have said it before, I will say it again- India are a poor team abroad. By abroad I mean outside the sub continent. The same for Pakistan. Pakistan have the bowling to win abroad, India has the batting. But, as a team, India is a much better team than Pakistan. As far as ODI's go, India have always done well in 'ICC' tournaments. Pakistan are not a match.

Pakistan beat NZ in NZ IIRC, 5-6 years back and that was their last great achievement although NZ were all over the place back then.

 

[IceAgeComing]

Exactly who in the world do you think you are mate?

don't post like this, its only going to lead to arguments. treat all members, especially staff members, with the respect that you'd like others to treat you.

Also you can't directly say "India have done better outside the subcontinent" because firstly that's a load of rubbish - they've won 1 test away since 2010 - and secondly you don't have an equal sample: in those last ten series Pakistan have one series outside the subcontinent (South Africa), while India have had five, across which they've managed to win a single Test.

I also have no truck in this (Scotland then England, pro-development of the game outside the test countries above all though) other than the fact that a strong India and a strong Pakistan is very good for World cricket and for us neutrals. I am critical of the BCCI but that's because I'd argue that every fan of cricket should be - messing around with tours and costing other boards millions because you dislike their chief executive, having high up executives highly linked to match fixing and all-round corruption and the fact that you have an entire country denied access to the IPL for... some reason not to mention their cash grab at the expense of associate and affiliate ICC members is harmful to the game generally; especially as this is coming from the biggest and most influential board. That doesn't mean that I don't support India as a team or look upon them in a negative way because I can separate the politics from the sport. The fact that Indian authorities seem willing to stand up to the BCCI is a positive and hopefully will lead to change that helps the entire game.

 

[Aislabie]

Exactly who in the world do you think you are mate?

A published cricket journalist. A cricket fan. A human being. A realist.

You're being biased.

Quite the opposite. I don't especially like either team, but do appreciate reasoned argument.

Conditions are always similar in India, SL and Pak.

This depends upon each individual ground (SSC vs Eden Gardens), but I'll accept a general trend that Asian pitches take more spin.

Also, the UAE can be found in the Middle East, not the Indian Subcontinent.

The challenge for a sub-continent nation is to win tests in England, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand.

Which India have not done, besides a single win in England, in a series they lost 3-1. Granted, Pakistan also failed to do so in their one series in South Africa.

As far as ODI's go

Not relevant to a Test match discussion.

Pakistan beat NZ in NZ IIRC, 5-6 years back and that was their last great achievement

India beat NZ in NZ 6-7 years back, and that was their last great achievement. They also have had five such series in this period, as opposed to just one for Pakistan.

India is a much better team than Pakistan

This is an impossible argument to make, based on any kind of reasoned argument. In the same way, it is difficult to make an argument for Pakistan being a significantly better side. Hence why I said they were roughly equal.