Irish players star...and England win!?! ...Can only be in Int Cricket

Ricco_M

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Right Rant time....firstly i know what I'm about to discuss is a tired subject in the cricketing world the past few years, but I want to vent my frustrations to anyone willing to read this view from an Irish cricket supporter - I feel that a line has now been crossed and international cricket is now at a new low with identity and character of 'country v country' competition and rivalry now devoid of a lot of national pride and meaning and is now simply a farce to be considered as international sport.

What a real kick in the teeth today that 'Team England' recovered from 4 down for 40 thanks to a fellow Irishman who learnt his game at this very ground where he played for his 'all Ireland' wining club team, yet he returns to spoil the irish party as captain of England - this does not sit easy with me and as much as morgans innings was very special, displaying all his immense talent and resolve it was also so frustrating to watch.

Today we had two Irishmen featuring as England's star performers. Irishmen who both had progressed right through the Ireland underage teams and coaching systems and had established international careers for Ireland...Yet on the biggest day for Irish cricket and launch of a new home for irish cricket they star for an opposing team in Ireland against past 'team mates' and 'countrymen' who they know so well- It's just not cricket......or i should say it only can be cricket....

I suppose the main grievance for Irish cricket supporters is that we mainly wonder what could of been if Morgan and Rankin were still playing for ireland like it should be, in other international sporting arenas around the world. It doesn't feel fair nor just and that's the sad thing that a lot of Irish supporters get frustrated about. This was only made worse by their starring performances for the other side which just rubs salt into these delicate wounds of Irish cricket.

I supose my question is Whether other people now feel the same being a bit disillusioned about the makeup of international teams? and I'd be interested to hear if England supporters feel in anyway uneasy of Irish players in the England team?
 
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I'll keep saying it, Test cricket needs tiers.

If Ireland were competing with Bangladesh, New Zealand, Zimbabwe etc for a place in the top tier of Test cricket then their stars would not need to play for England to fulfil their ambition to play Tests.

Only the players with no hope of playing Tests will stick with the non-Test nations (unless they have no choice) and the ICC isn't planning on changing policies from those 50+ years old when it comes to who plays Test cricket.

And at the bottom end of the Test ladder, Zimbabwe will continue to lose players to county cricket which is to be frank more embarrassing and frustrating, players choosing to play for an adopted county over the country of their birth :mad

I know a lot of it is Zimbabwe's own fault, but if the ECB tightened up overseas players policies to be only players currently playing Test cricket as a 'qualifier', and closed nationality qualification loopholes via EU passport type sheet, then the only way they could play for say Hampshire is to play for Zimbabwe too.

Might have/want to exempt aussies and saffers from such qualification as a lot of non-Test playing aussies etc are quite handy, but the ECB should back the countries rather than look to gain little 'edges' in their quest for promotion/survival/whatever.
 
What are you expecting, the players in the English cricket team to actually be English? :rolleyes
 
unfortunately, as the stated aim of england is to "win at all costs", they have no problem cherry picking anyone around.

frankly i think the system is a disgrace, ireland should be given much more support, it ould be a great thing for the game to have another test nation.

however, i don't think morgan and rankin can be absolved from blame either. they can claim to themselves they wish "to test themsleves against the best" but the fact is they have a choice to do something really special with ireland, be legends there in the country of their birth, or be bit-part players with england.

i'm an england fan but this really doesn't sit well with me.
 
Being an Ireland fan and complaining about other teams cherry picking players from other countries is a bit rich. Fair enough the likes of Bray, Botha and Johnston weren't wanted by their home countries, but how is that any different? Strange part of Ireland that Tim Murtagh is from too. I appreciate it's frustrating to lose your home grown stars, but without the ability of players to switch allegiances, Ireland would be no where near where they are now.

As with anything, everyone is happy with the system until they get burnt.

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On the bigger topic too, Ireland need to get their domestic cricket sorted out. They're not going to get Test status without an established domestic setup. And you can be critical of England all you like, but without County cricket, the likes of Niall O'Brien and Ed Joyce would not be half the players that they are.
 
Being an Ireland fan and complaining about other teams cherry picking players from other countries is a bit rich. Fair enough the likes of Bray, Botha and Johnston weren't wanted by their home countries, but how is that any different? Strange part of Ireland that Tim Murtagh is from too. I appreciate it's frustrating to lose your home grown stars, but without the ability of players to switch allegiances, Ireland would be no where near where they are now.

Firstly I don't think Ireland 'cherry pick' from any other international sides it'd nice if we could though. My main point is that i don't think it is right that the system in place (now thankfully amended by ICC) allows established international players to switch countries mid career after playing a significant number of full internationals for their country - that to me is not right and is what I believe devalues and makes a farce of Some of the games we witness now.

I don't think you can compare bray, Botha and Johnston as they were never established internationals before they played for Ireland and given the context irish cricket was in at the time their input and experience was invaluable at the time to take Ireland to the next level were they are currently at.

Ireland need to get their domestic cricket sorted out. They're not going to get Test status without an established domestic setup. And you can be critical of England all you like, but without County cricket, the likes of Niall O'Brien and Ed Joyce would not be half the players that they are.

Test cricket is a longterm goal and Cricket Ireland is well aware of whats required to achieve this - they have already got the ball rolling in relation to the domestic front this season with the setting up of the inter regional tournaments in all three formats. This helps provide a bridge between club and international cricket. The three teams are the North west Warriors, Northern Knights and Leinster Lightning. Leinster cricket is pretty strong and the talk is that in future they could be split into two sides, a north lenister and south leinster and this would better serve the competitiveness. The hope is that in a few years the tournament will be given first class status but at the moment that is still a far off target but at least the structure is now there.

Finally I agree that county cricket would not be half the force it is without the Irish influence such as Stirling, Joyce and O'Brien :)

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I can only continue to recommend Andrew Nixon for superb (and usually invective) associate coverage...
Today's timeline especially good on the Ireland situation.

Thanks - I've a read a few of his articles on the cricketeurope website and he does a great roundup of associate players actions in county cricket.

If I recall right Didn't he used to be a member here at PC many moons ago?
 
I think MUFC1987 is right, the likes of Ireland and Scotland do feed off the pick of the rest. Maybe not what all might strictly call "cherry picking", but it's like Championship teams (football) who moan about their best players getting poached by Premiership clubs doing it to teams below them.

All teams will pinch what they can from below, Ireland are no exception and can't preach about the purity of the England team until their honorary Irish players are no more.

And the county scene has helped them immensely, another example of teams picking players for their own purposes as they are EU and so qualify as home players.

Does Ireland need a domestic structure? Well of course, maybe not professional but perhaps they might hop on the bandwagon with the other teams playing in the English domestic game who aren't counties.

And making Ireland a Test nation in the current structure is pointless. So what if they beat a decent Test side every now and again, they will just add to the fixtures and dross already existing in Tests.

Now if they were to agree with Bangladesh, Zimbabwe and maybe even West Indies and New Zealand to fill up their unscheduled time with unofficial Tests, that could probably force ICC to make some kind of decision. At the moment status quo rules, I can't see the ICC promoting another team to the Test fold any time soon and (a little ironically) the advent of T20 will probably not help anyone's cause on that front.

The last three additions have been quite well spaced, but I can't see it continuing as there are just too many games for it to be practical in the current set up - hence the need for tiers

2000 Bangladesh (79 Tests in 13 years)
1992 Zimbabwe (92 Tests in 21 years)
1982 Sri Lanka (221 Tests in 31 years)

1952 Pakistan
1932 India
1929 New Zealand
1928 West Indies
1888 South Africa (1888-1970, 1994- )
1876 England & Australia

So the last five periods between new additions are 13*, 8, 10, 30 and 20 after three were added in quite quick succession.

Of course there is an alternate view that, like with Kenya, if something isn't done when the side are doing well they could disappear again. I think Kenya if anyone should have gotten Test status back around 2000, they were a decent side back then and Bangladesh had done FA and are still doing FA to merit Test status with just four Test wins in 79 matches and a very modest 77 wins in 273 ODIs of which 31 have come against Zimbabwe, 20 against Ireland/Scotland/Kenya/Holland/Bermuda/Canada and I count just 12 against sides like England, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, South Africa and Australia, although they have beaten those six at least once each

Bangladesh (ODIs)

vs PAK : W1 L30
vs AUS : W1 L18
vs SAF : W1 L13
vs ENG : W2 L13
vs IND : W3 L21
vs SRL : W4 L28

Still W12 L123 is still a pretty poor ratio of 1:10 give or take in a format which should make it more even. Doing that for Ireland :

Ireland (ODIs)

vs SAF : W0 L3
vs AUS : W0 L2
vs IND : W0 L2
vs SRL : W0 L1
vs ENG : W1 L5
vs PAK : W1 L3

So a win over England and Pakistan, but still only two credible wins in 16 so a ratio of 1:8 which is better than Bangladesh, but not convincing enough to persuade that they'd definitely be a better Test prospect than Bangladesh.

I'm sure the Irish would love to play the top sides more, but schedules are just
too busy to pander to the demands/cries from Test wannabes - cricket isn't about what people want for the Irish cricket team. They will continue to pick up players from elsewhere, like England, in that regard Bangladesh may not have many sources to tap into and too much pride to anyway - if you're going to lose anyway, why demean yourself with mercenaries.

But every now and then we'll have a "give Ireland Test status" plea, like we had the nonsense on the old BBC 606 forums about Chris b****y Read and his claims to be the keeper some years ago. Boy was that tedious, apparently he should have been picked as the outright best keeper regardless of batting, but then his advocates would still point to his county batting as if bating shouldn't be counted against him but should be counted for him (if you get what I mean)

Does that not strike a similar chord with Ireland? Forget the reasons against, promote only the reasons for. Would Tests be better for Ireland's inclusion? I would say definitely not at this stage and in this set up, so it is the needs of the many outweighing the needs/wants of the few.
 

Disagree with his approach in places, eg

Cricket fans from the Test-playing nations, even the newer ones, like to suggest that cricket is theirs. That people from other countries aren't smart or cultured enough to get the great game

Anyone who says that is an idiot, the problem is that cricket is elitist and "by invitation only" so isn't global and, as I keep saying, tiers may be the only way to make it more global. I'd even suggest some, maybe most, who take little interest say it is "our's", because it is played at the highest level by so few.

Like the resentment and stick you can get from lower league supporters if you support a Premiership football club. Their attitudes would change if their club were promoted and on the brink, if not in, the top flight. It's very much a "them and us" attitude some had, we've been accused of it at work when the fact is some departments consider themselves more important and the rest just there to do the 'simple' admin, lacking appreciation without us they couldn't do their job.

As for the Trent Johnston 'utility player' comment, he is what a side needs in transition, like an ageing but experienced footballer in the Championship and lower reaches of the Premiership, but not what will ultimately take them forward.

Also it sickens me the way it's all about money, money and money again. It's about time the ICC made it cricket first, money second.

The part at the end of part 1 sums it up, they have a good couple of games and draw and beat Test sides and apparently that is good enough for Test status. They were good results, but every dog has its day and Zimbabwe are in the lower reaches of Test and ODI standing, Pakistan vulnerable at the best of times.

It is rather an assumption they beat some sides so they deserve Test status. I'd love to know the EXACT reasons why Bangladesh got it, because they really were ill equipped then and still are now.

But none of that bodes well for Cricket Ireland getting their Test status. There is even a chance that there will never be another Test-playing nation.

It comes off as arrogant suggesting Ireland get "their Test status", it isn't "their's" whether they think they've earned it or not. Although he does seem to allude to tiers, that is a massive change and it shouldn't come in simply to suit the demands of the Irish.

I doubt they'll 'get in' any more than tiers will go through in a hurry, the problem is money which the Irish undoubtedly would love and the existing Test nations would not like to lose. The danger with a second tier is the sides will complain about not playing their favourite series, the lack of money that will undoubtedly come with secondary status, and I think most would rather maintain the status quo and just play Zimbabwe and Bangladesh when they have to.

In seven years it has only been three players. But the best three. Take the best three players out of any team and see how they go

Well actually the better sides would cope, maybe not be as strong, but maybe because there are quite a few English players who would probably get or contend to be in the Irish XI (that's bound to get a few toys thrown out of prams by being taken completely the wrong way), so what I'm saying is the strength and depth is much greater. After all there are 18 counties with at least 11 playing staff of whom some will not be English, but essentially around 200 give or take.

I don't agree with England taking the Irish players, we have players we should bring in instead and not pinch players because they provide an instant fix or as if they're just part of a bigger catchment.

If they want to be critical, why not of Morgan, Joyce, Rankin etc themselves for putting Ireland second? No, it's easier to blame England, that England could do sweet FA if Morgan had said "no thanks, I'm Irish" is besides the point.


Seems a lot of self pity in that article which is a shame, it just comes across as if the whole (cricket) world should be putting Ireland first. Kenya were snubbed in favour of Bangladesh, other countries have a case albeit a lesser one in most cases, but it's all about Ireland. 'How can we get Ireland Test status?', we'll stop complaining and demanding it would be a start. I want to see tiered Test cricket, get it so teams are playing at their level not just England et al playing teams because they have to and chalking up easy wins most of the time.

yes Ireland will suffer with lost players, lost revenue, and no progress/development because they're not testing themselves at the higher level, but what's new?!? Cricket is living years in the past in its structure, ironic given the arrival or T20s and years ago ODIs. Neither shifted thinking into the 21st century, they continued adding Test teams periodically and now they've reached the limit there is no suggestion of expansion.

I know it may come across like I'm arguing for and against Ireland's inclusion, I'm talking about developing cricket for cricket's sake, not just because the Irish and their advocates keep whining. I would trust more than just Ireland would be beneficiaries of any changes, there is little chance there'll be 11 Test nations in the current structure and this whole thing should have been considered back when Zimbabwe got Test status and South Africa returned to the fold only a few years late eg in the mid 90s.

Two decades have passed, one more team was ill advisedly added for whatever reason, perhaps something to do with them being Asian and perhaps $$$$, I mean who wants some African country in Tests.............? (not my view, perhaps that of the ICC at the time)

As for the World Cup, I thought it was stupid to deny non-Test nations participation. I can understand why, the format has become decidedly difficult with half a dozen weaker sides involved, the 2007 format meant the ICC and TV didn't get the round robin "super eight" phase they wanted as Pakistan and India went out.

They would not want a repeat of that. The 2011 format made sure the non-Test nations plus unwanted Zimbabwe and Bangladesh were odds on to go out at the group stage, but this meant way too many games, 42 in the group stage and another 7 in the knockouts. Back in 2007 there were 24 in the group stage, two Test casualties, and 24 in the "super eight" phase which inconveniently included Ireland and Bangladesh who predictably finished 7th and 8th out of eight.

I'm not sure exactly what format was proposed with just the 10 Test nations, something that got rid of Zimbabwe and Bangladesh to then include as many games as possible between the rest without being too many as to make it last too long.

Ireland may be happy they'll get a piece of the pie in terms of $$$ out of participating, but they'll do exceptionally well to progress given only four from each group qualify. They've already been thrown in with South Africa, India, Pakistan and West Indies, they'd need 3+ wins and I think to get that everything would have to 'go to plan'

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Oh and I think the ICC will be more worried about the balance between T20Is and the other formats, and the IPL than whether or not Ireland are happy.

That they had to be almost coerced into changing the 2015 World Cup format shows what they think of non-Test nations in terms of their plans for structures of competitions, and while Ireland may feel they have won a major battle, it may set them back in the war because the ICC won't be happy about it.

I doubt the Test nations will rally to their side either, they may offer the odd ODI and series here and there, but if Bangladesh ran the risk of not playing England et al because Ireland were drafted in and Bangladesh effectively relegated, they'd cut their own throats.

So in one respect you could argue Ireland are on a level with the Test nations, all selfish and wanting what is best for them over what is best for cricket :thumbs
 

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