World Cup Sachin is to Kohli what Maradona is to Messi?

[SachinFanForever]

Today we at Bing launched a new experience for comparing stats of cricketers. E.g. Sachin vs Kohli stats comparison. While I was browsing and comparing popular players like Sachin, Kohli, Viv Richards, ABD, Ponting, etc., I found out that Kohli's ODI numbers are indeed overwhelming, but extremely poor compared to Sachin when it comes to playing on the grand stage - knockout matches in important tournaments (finals, semifinals, etc.). For example:

In world cups, both have comparable stats, But Sachin had had many more impactful knocks - 54 against Pakistan in 1992, 70 against West Indies in 1996, 137 and 65 against Lanka in 1996, 98 against Pakistan, 97 against Sri Lanka, 50 against England in 2003, 120 against England, 111 vs South Africa, 54 vs Australia in quarter final, 85 vs Pakistan in semifinal. He was the highest scorer in all cases, often setting the tone of the innings. Kohli has but one such innings - 107 against Pakistan in 2015 WC, and even there two other batsmen scored in 70s. In all other knocks, he has played second fiddle, to Rohit, or Dhawan.

In 3 WC semifinals, Sachin scored 65, 83 and 85. Kohli scored 9, 1 and 1.

In tests, the stats do look comparable, but at this stage in life, which was in 2002, Sachin averaged close to 59, his average took a hit post 2010, Kohli now averages 53.

Is it fair to say that Tendulkar is to Kohli what Maradona is to Messi? One has killer numbers, but fails to deliver on the grand stage like World Cup or knockout matches (although Messi does play well in Champions League knockout matches) but plays like a juggernaut in league matches or unimportant tournaments, while the other has slightly lesser numbers but delivers when it matters the most - in World Cups?

 

[Bevab]

The comparison between football and cricket here is very much off the mark. The World Cup in football is not the toughest competition, it’s been the Champions League since the early 2000s as European football has had the most stars. Messi has been the star of every final he’s played there and that combined with the sheer consistency he’s shown for so many years means that he ranks above Maradona who himself was a legend.

Further, claiming that Messi failed to deliver in a World Cup is a joke. He was one of the best players in 2014 and had it not been for him and their defense, they wouldn’t have been anywhere near the final.

Coming back to cricket (any resemblances to a certain Tamil commentator are purely coincidental ), let me just quote one of my previous posts related to this.

• Kohli was also part of a valuable and crucial partnership with Gambhir during the 2011 WC finals that arrested a potential collapse.
• Kohli also made a 50 during the semis in the 2013 Champions Trophy and was the highest run scorer during the final.
• He nearly scored a century versus Bangladesh during the semis of 2017 Champions Trophy.
• To cite an example from another format, Kohli scored a magnificient 89 in the semis of 2016 T20 World Cup.

In short, Kohli most definitely does not have an issue with choking during the knockout stages. Expecting to score nearly every game and blaming him for the occasional game where he inevitably fails seems like cherrypicking to me.

And I’ve still failed to include his incredible knock in the de factor quarter finals versus Australia in the same tournament, the match versus Sri Lanka where he chased down 300 plus under 40 overs absolutely dismantling the world’s most economical pacer at that time, his 2014 T20WC exploits and his Asia Cup knock versus Pakistan.

Let us compare Sachin and Kohli’s scores in ODI WC finals to see who fails deliver on the grandest stage of them all.

Sachin: 4, 18
Kohli: 35

Given that Sachin’s combined scores still don’t come close to Kohli’s single score, does this mean Sachin choked when the pressure was most high unlike Kohli who stood up?

The difference lies in Sachin having better teammates who compensated for his one failure in 2011 when he failed while Kohli didn’t have that luxury in 2015 or 2019.

 

[SachinFanForever]

The comparison between football and cricket here is very much off the mark. The World Cup in football is not the toughest competition, it’s been the Champions League since the early 2000s as European football has had the most stars. Messi has been the star of every final he’s played there and that combined with the sheer consistency he’s shown for so many years means that he ranks above Maradona who himself was a legend.

Further, claiming that Messi failed to deliver in a World Cup is a joke. He was one of the best players in 2014 and had it not been for him and their defense, they wouldn’t have been anywhere near the final.

Coming back to cricket (any resemblances to a certain Tamil commentator are purely coincidental ), let me just quote one of my previous posts related to this.



And I’ve still failed to include his incredible knock in the de factor quarter finals versus Australia in the same tournament, the match versus Sri Lanka where he chased down 300 plus under 40 overs absolutely dismantling the world’s most economical pacer at that time, his 2014 T20WC exploits and his Asia Cup knock versus Pakistan.

Let us compare Sachin and Kohli’s scores in ODI WC finals to see who fails deliver on the grandest stage of them all.

Sachin: 4, 18
Kohli: 35

Given that Sachin’s combined scores still don’t come close to Kohli’s single score, does this mean Sachin choked when the pressure was most high unlike Kohli who stood up?

The difference lies in Sachin having better teammates who compensated for his one failure in 2011 when he failed while Kohli didn’t have that luxury in 2015 or 2019.

Thanks Bevab. The innings against Australia in quarter finals was in T20, and thr 300 chase was in another trilateral series. As I have already mentioned, Kohli is a juggernaut in all those non-WC ODI matches. Except - knockouts. When I say knockouts, of course I meant ODI knockouts. After playing for 10 years in cricket, Kohli has not one single instance of playing a match winnings innings in a tournament knockout where he was the highest scorer, or he was the man of the match. Not one. Tendulkar had so, so many. 143 and 134 in Sharjah, 138 in Compaq Cup final, 117 and 91 in CB Series finals (the only ODI tournament India has ever won in Australia till date), 85 in WC 2011 semifinal, 54 in WC 2011 quarter final, 83 in 2003 WC semifinal, 141 in 1998 ICC Knockout, 100 in Independence Cup final (albeit against Kenya, but still a knockout match). Kohli has none. He scored a 96 once in the 2017 CT semifinal, even there, Rohit Sharma got the MoM by scoring an unbeaten 123.

Of course Sachin had failures, like the two WC finals you mentioned. But Kohli scored 35, not much either (although I will concede that it was very timely, stablizing the innings to a famous win). But Sachin had succeeded many, many times, Kohli till now, never. 9, 1 and 1 in 3 WC semifinals in unacceptable for a batsman who is a GOAT contender.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Thanks Bevab. The innings against Australia in quarter finals was in T20, and thr 300 chase was in another trilateral series. As I have already mentioned, Kohli is a juggernaut in all those non-WC ODI matches. Except - knockouts. When I say knockouts, of course I meant ODI knockouts. After playing for 10 years in cricket, Kohli has not one single instance of playing a match winnings innings in a tournament knockout where he was the highest scorer, or he was the man of the match. Not one. Tendulkar had so, so many. 143 and 134 in Sharjah, 138 in Compaq Cup final, 117 and 91 in CB Series finals (the only ODI tournament India has ever won in Australia till date), 85 in WC 2011 semifinal, 54 in WC 2011 quarter final, 83 in 2003 WC semifinal, 141 in 1998 ICC Knockout, 100 in Independence Cup final (albeit against Kenya, but still a knockout match). Kohli has none. He scored a 96 once in the 2017 CT semifinal, even there, Rohit Sharma got the MoM by scoring an unbeaten 123.

Of course Sachin had failures, like the two WC finals you mentioned. But Kohli scored 35, not much either (although I will concede that it was very timely, stablizing the innings to a famous win). But Sachin had succeeded many, many times, Kohli till now, never. 9, 1 and 1 in 3 WC semifinals in unacceptable for a batsman who is a GOAT contender.

I myself come as a huge Sachin fan but I don't think Kohli has been that poor as people have shown him to be. And it doesn't matter much whether the knockout was a ODI or a T20I because both are high pressure knockouts. And there was an ODI knockout which was reduced to a T20 match (2013 CT) where Kohli was the top scorer scoring 46 runs on a pitch which was damp and difficult to get the bat on ball. Without Kohli's contribution India were never going to win the 2013 Champions Trophy Final.

 

[SachinFanForever]

I myself come as a huge Sachin fan but I don't think Kohli has been that poor as people have shown him to be. And it doesn't matter much whether the knockout was a ODI or a T20I because both are high pressure knockouts. And there was an ODI knockout which was reduced to a T20 match (2013 CT) where Kohli was the top scorer scoring 46 runs on a pitch which was damp and difficult to get the bat on ball. Without Kohli's contribution India were never going to win the 2013 Champions Trophy Final.

Agreed, but the moment it got reduced to T20, the discussion goes out of park. Kohli may accrue all accolades in T20Is, and yet he won't be a GOAT contender. Tests and ODIs determine GOATness, not T20Is. He has to play well in ODI WC knockouts to win matches (full 50 overs). Till now he played 3 semifinals - his scores were 9, 1 and 1. The entire WC was owned by Rohit Sharma, the semifinal was supposed to be Kohli's day.

 

[Bevab]

@SachinFanForever the 300 chase was in a game that India had to win to stand any chance of qualifying for the finals. Doesn’t that already make it by virtue a knockout game? His 183 was also in a must win game versus Pakistan, Bangladesh only qualified for the final ultimately because of their H2H record if I’m correct. There is also the argument of triangular ODI tournaments becoming exceedingly rare these day, the last one Kohli played was in 2015 just before the WC.

And @NilayShah60 is right, does it matter if the knockouts are ODIs or T20Is? Both are equally demanding situations in terms of pressure. I’m not a huge fan of T20s, but it still is a format where you ought to produce the goods to win games and he has done it on multiple occasions there. Completely disregarding it in favour of only tests and ODIs is wrong.

You’ve also forgotten Kohli scoring a 50 in the 2013 Champions Trophy semis, but will probably mention that since he happened to be outscored marginally, it doesn’t count. And why is his semi final record pulled up when he actually made a meaningful contribution in the finals of 2011WC? You’re considering Sachin’s best performances stacked up against Kohli’s worst which will give you only one answer. This is just cherrypicking to me.

And I don’t think Kohli himself would deny that his performances were not upto the lofty standards he sets, but Rohit overperformed compared to his usual standards while Kohli performed to his usual standard (marginally worse if you consider his career average). Expecting Kohli to be the match winner in every single game is folly, there is a reason why a team has nearly 7 players that are supposed to bat reasonably well as one player could be in good form like Rohit now while the other struggles like Jadhav.

Sachin’s career is also over and this helps in viewing his career with rose tinted glasses. We tend to remember the fond times that our legends gave us a lot more rather than the bad ones and some of Sachin’s poorer performances have definitely been forgotten due to time. This is by no means a criticism of Sachin who is undoubtedly the most talented batsman to emerge from India, but to point out how comparing a player who has been retired for almost 8 years with one who is only now in his peak isn’t really going to paint the entire picture. Kohli still has at least one World Cup to improve his record in the semi-finals that you have pointed out.

 

[SachinFanForever]

@SachinFanForever the 300 chase was in a game that India had to win to stand any chance of qualifying for the finals. Doesn’t that already make it by virtue a knockout game? His 183 was also in a must win game versus Pakistan, Bangladesh only qualified for the final ultimately because of their H2H record if I’m correct. There is also the argument of triangular ODI tournaments becoming exceedingly rare these day, the last one Kohli played was in 2015 just before the WC.

And @NilayShah60 is right, does it matter if the knockouts are ODIs or T20Is? Both are equally demanding situations in terms of pressure. I’m not a huge fan of T20s, but it still is a format where you ought to produce the goods to win games and he has done it on multiple occasions there. Completely disregarding it in favour of only tests and ODIs is wrong.

You’ve also forgotten Kohli scoring a 50 in the 2013 Champions Trophy semis, but will probably mention that since he happened to be outscored marginally, it doesn’t count. And why is his semi final record pulled up when he actually made a meaningful contribution in the finals of 2011WC? You’re considering Sachin’s best performances stacked up against Kohli’s worst which will give you only one answer. This is just cherrypicking to me.

And I don’t think Kohli himself would deny that his performances were not upto the lofty standards he sets, but Rohit overperformed compared to his usual standards while Kohli performed to his usual standard (marginally worse if you consider his career average). Expecting Kohli to be the match winner in every single game is folly, there is a reason why a team has nearly 7 players that are supposed to bat reasonably well as one player could be in good form like Rohit now while the other struggles like Jadhav.

Sachin’s career is also over and this helps in viewing his career with rose tinted glasses. We tend to remember the fond times that our legends gave us a lot more rather than the bad ones and some of Sachin’s poorer performances have definitely been forgotten due to time. This is by no means a criticism of Sachin who is undoubtedly the most talented batsman to emerge from India, but to point out how comparing a player who has been retired for almost 8 years with one who is only now in his peak isn’t really going to paint the entire picture. Kohli still has at least one World Cup to improve his record in the semi-finals that you have pointed out.

Thanks Bevab. Very mature response. Kohli has scored some 50s here and there, agreed, but like I said, he always plays second fiddle. He played second fiddle to Rohit Sharma in this World Cup, to Dhawan in previous World Cup. My personal opinion (could be wrong) is that the GOAT contender should be the dominant player in major tournaments and knockout matches. Sure, there will be failures, but they will be lesser in number compared to the success.

Case in point: Sachin. Did Sachin not fail in World Cups? Or knockout matches? Yes, plenty of times. Everybody fails. But he succeeded more frequently than anybody else, except Viv Richards. This - I am not seeing through rose tinted glasses, I am seeing it through raw stats, no other batsman has performed remotely as well on the big stages and knockout matches as Sachin:

tendulkar vs ponting
tendulkar vs lara
tendulkar vs kallis
tendulkar vs sangakkara
tendulkar vs hayden
tendulkar vs gilchrist
tendulkar vs inzamam
tendulkar vs ganguly
tendulkar vs haynes
tendulkar vs jayasuriya
tendulkar vs sehwag
tendulkar vs anwar
tendulkar vs dravid
tendulkar vs viv richards

Sachin saw India to the semis in 1996 WC virtually single handedly, akin to what Kane Williamson did this time. The next three run scorers for India in the 1996 WC combined di not make as many runs as Tendulkar. Now that is dominance. Agreed, with players like Rohit, Dhoni and Dhawan, it is not possible to be dominant like that because they are also champion players (India is fortunate to have them all at the same time), but when the chips are down, he was expected to win the match.