SLIDERS - Around the world in 80 pitch sliders.....again

[Rumple43]

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Around the world in 80 pitch sliders.....again​

Following on from a thread I created in Ashes 17, I wanted to once again delve into the world of sliders for Cricket 22.

Working with the incredibly knowledgeable @WealeyH, the plan was to create some slider sets that take into account conditions in different countries of the world as well as different formats of the game. What does that entail, exactly? I'm glad you asked!

• Pitches that behave in a way that is identifiable with the country you're in
• Pitches that evolve over the course of a multi-day game (organically if possible, though manually if necessary)
• AI that responds appropriately to the format of the game you're playing.
• AI that is matched to the conditions you're playing in

Having reached v4 of a spreadsheet to display the above, I think my work in this area is now completed. There have been a lot of people who have contributed time, effort and input and for that, thank you. Hopefully these sliders allowed Cricket 22 to be the best version of itself it can be.

The past progress of the project can be viewed below.

Current progress​

There have been a few developments since the project began. Starting with base sets and further experimental sets, these were then built into v1 of the slider spreadsheet. v4 is the current and final version, which is now live and ready to download.

Expand the sections below to have a look, and each one is dated so you can see the most recent.

Spoiler: 14/04/2022 - Slider Spreadsheet v4

The most recent version of the slider spreadsheet is v4, published in mid-April 2022.

The additional functionality of v2 and v3 was retained, with some changes to run rate, general AI ability and physics to try and lessen the impact of user spin bowlers.

For more information, you can view the explanation and change log post HERE.

To download the v4 spreadsheet, it is attached to the bottom of this post.

As an anecdotal change to the v4 numbers, some users have reported much better AI bowling with a slider setting for AI bowling quality set to zero. This is the opposite of what the slider's description suggests should be the case, but is worth noting and giving a go.

Spoiler: 22/01/2022 - Slider Spreadsheet v3

V3 of the slider spreadsheet was published shortly after v2, in mid-January 2022.

The additional functionality of v2 was retained, with some minor changes to pitch bounce based on BA's recent patches.

For more information, you can view the explanation and post HERE.

If you want to download it instead of V4, use the link above.

Spoiler: 18/01/2022 - Slider Spreadsheet v2

V2 of the slider spreadsheet was published in mid-January 2022.

Building on v1, additional functionality like home/away sliders, plus an extra modifier were built in for users.

For more information, you can view the explanation and post HERE.

If you want to download it instead of V3, use the link above.

Spoiler: 21/12/2021 - Slider Spreadsheet v1

The first version of the slider spreadsheet was published in December 2021.

For more information, you can view the explanation and post HERE.

If you want to download it instead of V2, use the link above. As of 18/01/2021, v1 has been downloaded over 650 times!

Spoiler: 04/01/2022 - T20 Sliders

After some brief play testing, I've had a bit of an experiment with some T20 sliders.

These are far from the finished article and could well need extensive tweaks.

For an explanation of the two games I played with them, plus the sliders themselves (in a spoiler box at the bottom of the post) go HERE.

These T20 sliders were based on the numbers from v1 of the slider spreadsheet, and no doubt need updating with some of the slider numbers in v2.

Videos​

For people wanting to know more about exact slider values and what they do, @SloppyMani and @Gamer Pradosh have created an excellent two part video explaining everything you could need to know.

Reskilled teams​

I have reskilled my players in the past to lessen their general attributes, leading to (in my opinion) better game play. I have reverted back to "base" players with no reskilling as of March 2022, given the patches that were released and changes made to the overall build of the game.

If you still want more information on reskilling players and the discussion had at the time, CLICK HERE.

For guidance on exactly how I reskilled my players, CLICK HERE.


So there we are. Have at it people, go test and enjoy the v4 spreadsheet, but just some things to keep in mind....

Other sliders​

This isn't a dictatorship, and we didn't have all the answers. As such, it may be possible, shocking as it is, that other people have good stuff to offer. For anyone lurking and wanting to ask the "What's the best sliders?!" question, this is for you. Here is a collection of any other sliders that I come across:

• @gogabutt - Test cricket sliders
• @GuyIncognito - First class cricket sliders
• @Gamer Pradosh - Test and shorter format slider videos

If you have sliders you want to add to this list and I've not seen them elsewhere, drop me a DM.

Oh, and if you're interested in my other ramblings about cricket pitches, click here. Or take a look at this.

For reference, this post was last updated - 14/04/2022 (added the v4 spreadsheet)

 

[Wealey]

Adjusting these certainly can enhance the overall game not just when bowling but when batting as well. Things like allowing the AI to hit the stumps with a normal green delivery then opens you the user up to being dismissed LBW or bowled by an extra 3 different deliveries potentially.

We should for the super keen and realists look into the use of wicket chance and AI timing when creating pitches that should technically be a minefield.

If you want a green overcast seamer in England up the wicket chance , lower the timing and they should be struggling. To enhance it for the user you can up things like edge frequency to certain timings or increase shot timing difficulty to give the impressions of a real battle and struggle.

If you have the time and want to get a full set of sliders for different conditions you can really Taylor each game specific to the conditions.

Im all in @Rumple43 i think for a good batting deck Wicket Chance for a standard deck for example should be 35.

 

[Ken Tremendous]

Was hoping you'd come back with something like this for C22 @Rumple43 - i love the idea of getting a baseline of sliders for each major country around the world, it really helps in making the game feel different when playing in different places, and presenting different challenges.

Im going to finish my current Test on the settings i started for consistency then from that point forward ill use these and report back (playing an Ashes series) which ties in with Oz as the first base.

 

[Crassus]

Does this take into account the changing conditions through a 5-day game? For example in England, more swing and less spin on days 1/2 then good batting conditions on day 3 then more spin and wicket chance on days 4/5.

I made some slider difficulties on C19 but could only do a certain amount so I had 5 for England (days 1-5) which I used for NZ too. Then 5 for Australia /South Africa and 5 for subcontinent tours. Then I had one for t20s and one for ODIs regardless of where it was played.

Only problem then is forgetting to change it over each day so going into a new test match playing on 5th day settings...

 

[Rumple43]

Does this take into account the changing conditions through a 5-day game? For example in England, more swing and less spin on days 1/2 then good batting conditions on day 3 then more spin and wicket chance on days 4/5.

I made some slider difficulties on C19 but could only do a certain amount so I had 5 for England (days 1-5) which I used for NZ too. Then 5 for Australia /South Africa and 5 for subcontinent tours. Then I had one for t20s and one for ODIs regardless of where it was played.

Only problem then is forgetting to change it over each day so going into a new test match playing on 5th day settings...

Establishing pitch wear/conditions changing is probably the next thing to add to the list once something is scrubbed off, but its something I had a very, very brief look at earlier tonight. Getting spin bounce correct shouldn't be too difficult to sort between us.

Not typing out what I found using my phone tho, that can wait for my laptop tomorrow!

 

[anandponnath]

View attachment 259105​

Around the world in 80 pitch sliders.....again​

Following on from a thread I created in Ashes 17, I wanted to once again delve into the world of sliders for Cricket 20.

Working with the incredibly knowledgeable @WealeyH, the plan is to create some slider sets that take into account conditions in different countries of the world as well as different formats of the game. What does that entail, exactly? I'm glad you asked!

• Pitches that behave in a way that is identifiable with the country you're in
• Pitches that evolve over the course of a multi-day game (organically if possible, though manually if necessary)
• AI that responds appropriately to the format of the game you're playing.
• AI that is matched to the conditions you're playing in

That pipe dream is still a way off, but there has already been some work done since the game dropped a few weeks ago. Granted, some of it needs to be taken with a pinch of salt due to the continued patching by BA, but still, it is a start at least.

Over time I'll edit this original post to include whatever is created. For now, I'll drop some base sliders and the progress of the project in case others wish to contribute and keep things moving. This is by no means a closed project, the more people chip in with play testing and suggestions, the better.

Current stage​

The early plan is to make a set of sliders for one particular part of the world, then adapt from there. That base country is Australia.

The focus is also more on the pitch and physics at this point, so feel free to play with your own AI settings/difficulty. Each to their own, and all that.

I would recommend an AI run rate of around 20-30 in tests though, that's around the value I've got at the moment. A wicket chance of 35 is also about right.

Spoiler: 09/12/2021 - Current set

For a DRY, HARD pitch

Pace bowling speed MIN - 70
Pace bowling speed MAX - 80
Pace bowling bouncer length - 40

Spin bowling bounce - 70
Spin bowling flight - 30

Pace bowling swing - 60
Pace bowling revolutions - 33

Spin bowling drift - 33
Spin bowling revs - 33

Pitch friction - 65
Pitch bounce - 35
Ball friction - 35
Ball bounce - 30

Shot force - 35

Current areas of focus​

The following are areas that currently need some work/testing/investigation, if anyone is interested.

Spoiler: Spin bounce height

The current bounce height for spinners is a bit low, this more than likely needs turning up.

Here is an over of green, standard deliveries from Joe Root:

View attachment 259115

And Big Eye of a Nathan Lyon delivery on the same pitch:

View attachment 259116

Based on real world data, the bounce for a standard delivery in Australia would be around the top Vodaphone logo of those stumps in the Lyon graphic. The top of the ball should be brushing the bottom of the bails, there or there abouts anyway.

Therefor, the current slider value of 70 for "Spin bowling bounce" needs to increase. We just need to test by how much.

Spoiler: Using these sliders on different types of pitch

These sliders currently give a standard bounce that is just above the stumps for a bowler like Jimmy Anderson.

This is a rough idea of what we're talking about for Australia:

View attachment 259117

What we need to establish is how these Australian pitch sliders for a Dry Hard pitch transfer to another pitch, both in terms of surface and hardness.

It could be (and this is wishful thinking I reckon) that these sliders produce spot on bounce and physics just by changing the surface and hardness. That would be ace. It may be that some tweaking is required though, depending how the ball behaves.

This needs to be tested though.

For an English style pitch, so grassy surface and medium hardness lets say, how do these sliders translate? This is a snippet of data as a reference point:

View attachment 259118

Do the sliders produce bail-high bounce on a standard delivery that's about 87mph or so? That's what we need to take a gander at.

So there we are. Have at it people, but just some things to keep in mind....

Cool stuff:

• Contributing to this thread, either with practical examples, screens or videos of things you've found, or asking on topic questions.
• Offering suggestions based on things you have experienced.
• Getting involved and helping.

Not cool stuff:

• Saying "What are the best sliders to use?!" or similar. This main post will have sliders in it, everything after is for testing and discussion.
• Offering purely anecdotal evidence with nothing to back it up. Show your workings, people.

Other sliders​

This isn't a dictatorship, and we don't have all the answers. As such, it may be possible, shocking as it is, that other people have good stuff to offer. For anyone lurking and wanting to ask the "What's the best sliders?!" question, this is for you. Here is a collection of any other sliders that I come across:

• @gogabutt - Test cricket sliders

If you have sliders you want to add to this list and I've not seen them elsewhere, drop me a DM.

Oh, and if you're interested in my other ramblings about cricket pitches, click here. Or take a look at this.

Love these slider setting. Real graft on 20 shot force, OK timing doesn't go beyond the inner ring. Maybe I should bump it up a bit.

 

[Rumple43]

Love these slider setting. Real graft on 20 shot force, OK timing doesn't go beyond the inner ring. Maybe I should bump it up a bit.

I am personally a fan of lower shot force, but a higher boost slider for ideal timing.

That way there is a solid reward for timing your shots spot on, and more of a penalty for anything less. Scoring can be achieved with good batting, which is how it should be

 

[Rumple43]

So, just to throw some extra stuff into the mix.

I spent 15 minutes last night with the base slider set and a DRY, HARD pitch, as described in the intro post.

I loaded up a play now game at the Gabba and had a little bowl. For every delivery I selected standard delivery and normal speed, and provided zero after touch input. Expand the selections below for more (posts can get a bit too long if I don't put them in spoiler boxes!)

As always with my testing, you get 5 deliveries to work from. Once you bowl the sixth, it's harder to get the big lines data for some reason. Just for reference.

A bit about pitch bounce, ball variance and bowler actions/differences​

Spoiler: James Anderson

Not entirely sure what happened with ball 2 and 4, they went a long way. Perhaps I flicked the stick without realising but the point of this exercise was to show the general bounce. I could redo this one in truth, I was a bit rushed.

All deliveries were between 86 and 89.5mph, and from a "normal" delivery they just cleared the stumps. Here is another one I took using Big Eye to show his usual length:


That's pretty much what you're going to get. After touch will just about make the ball brush the bails, but that's the best you're going to get. Once you get above 88/89mph, you're probably not going to hit the bails regardless.

Verdict?

If you want to bring the stumps into play with these sliders in Australian conditions, you need to do a full delivery. Or change the conditions away from a Dry, Hard pitch.

Spoiler: Stuart Broad

Broad is programmed to be quicker than Anderson in C22, and all these deliveries were between 88.5 and 91mph. Clearing the stumps comfortably with no after touch input.

What I really like about this is the variation. Here's why.

This is from some slider testing I did from Ashes 17, with some medium fast off cutters on the left and some spin on the right:


Ignoring some of the mental bounce/spin (I was testing 0 & 100 slider ratings), you can see just how easy it was to run up and bowl the same ball over and over again. Bowlers now appear to have some variance to them, and I would imagine, though it would need testing, that the level of variance ball to ball is dictated by their attributes.

Verdict?

Better bowlers will put the ball where you mean for it to go more often than poorer bowlers. This is good to see! Oh, and Broad bowls faster than Anderson, and his deliveries bounce higher. No rocket science on display there.

Spoiler: Jofra Archer

So, Broad bowls faster than Anderson, and his deliveries clear the stumps by more. That makes sense.

Jofra bowls faster than Broad, so tracking the logic, his deliveries will be highest above the stumps out of the three. Correct?


Incorrect. All these Archer deliveries were between 92.5 and 96mph.

As an aside, I would have to check but I'd imagine that Jimmy's attributes > Broad's attributes > Archer's attributes. You can see how much variance there is here, with three deliveries that would be milked to leg by a right hander, one that is just outside off, and one that is wider outside off. Quite the mixed bag from Jofra!

Going back to the relationship between bounce and delivery speed, let's compare. Red balls are deliveries by Broad, blue is Archer.


Well, there you have it. Despite his deliveries being the best part of 5 or so MPH slower, Broad gets more bounce than Archer.

Reasons? Can't be sure for certain but my guess would be two-fold. One is bowling action, with Broad potentially having a higher release point than Archer, giving him more bounce. The other is height. Broad is 6'4", Archer is about 5'10".

Verdict?

Delivery speed doesn't equal bounce. You need to know your bowlers and how they bowl to get the best out of them.

For example, you may think that if you wanted to bounce a batsman out, Archer's express pace might be best. In truth, it could be Broad and his higher release point that is better suited. Or Mark Wood, for that matter.

Also, we've got another example of bowler variance and how better/higher attributes may make for more consistent bowlers. Lovely.

A bit about pitch wear​

After the above findings, I simmed through the rest of the match until the start of the fourth day. Predictably England were struggling and needed about 400 runs batting last. Good luck chaps!

The reason I simmed on was to see how the pitch would behave on day 4. I would have preferred to use the same bowlers, but not to be. Pitch wear was on fast.

Spoiler: Hazelwood + Cummins

Following the same method as before, here's five from Josh:


88-91 mph. Is there any variable bounce? There is not. Is there any significant seam movement that suggests cracks have opened or the pitch now favours the bowler? Doesn't look like it.

Small sample size, but that's how it looked to me.

Here's Cummins:


91-93mph. The mucky brown colour is meant to be yellow, ball 5. Its the outlier, but by the looks of things, it just started wider than the rest and stayed wide. The wider line probably attributed for the lower bounce as well. Some good consistency there, sadly.

Verdict?

In a very small sample size, there was no immediately obvious difference in a day 4 pitch than day 1, for seamers. I did simulate, not play, if that impacts things.

TL;DR​

• There's plenty of examples in the spoilers above about what lengths you need to bowl to threated the stumps with the base slider set on a Dry, Hard pitch. Bowl full, basically, or take on the bails with a medium-fast bowler and after touch.
• There's some interesting findings on bowler variance, and how delivery consistency could be affected by attributes.
• Faster deliveries do not always bounce the highest. Bowler action and height potentially plays a part.
• In an incredibly small, simmed sample, there didn't appear to be any pitch wear that affected bounce or seam movement on standard deliveries from pace bowlers on day 1 compared to day 4.

 

[gillyboy04]

So, just to throw some extra stuff into the mix.

I spent 15 minutes last night with the base slider set and a DRY, HARD pitch, as described in the intro post.

I loaded up a play now game at the Gabba and had a little bowl. For every delivery I selected standard delivery and normal speed, and provided zero after touch input. Expand the selections below for more (posts can get a bit too long if I don't put them in spoiler boxes!)

As always with my testing, you get 5 deliveries to work from. Once you bowl the sixth, it's harder to get the big lines data for some reason. Just for reference.

A bit about pitch bounce, ball variance and bowler actions/differences​

Spoiler: James Anderson

View attachment 259163
Not entirely sure what happened with ball 2 and 4, they went a long way. Perhaps I flicked the stick without realising but the point of this exercise was to show the general bounce. I could redo this one in truth, I was a bit rushed.

All deliveries were between 86 and 89.5mph, and from a "normal" delivery they just cleared the stumps. Here is another one I took using Big Eye to show his usual length:

View attachment 259164
That's pretty much what you're going to get. After touch will just about make the ball brush the bails, but that's the best you're going to get. Once you get above 88/89mph, you're probably not going to hit the bails regardless.

Verdict?

If you want to bring the stumps into play with these sliders in Australian conditions, you need to do a full delivery. Or change the conditions away from a Dry, Hard pitch.

Spoiler: Stuart Broad

View attachment 259166
Broad is programmed to be quicker than Anderson in C22, and all these deliveries were between 88.5 and 91mph. Clearing the stumps comfortably with no after touch input.

What I really like about this is the variation. Here's why.

This is from some slider testing I did from Ashes 17, with some medium fast off cutters on the left and some spin on the right:

View attachment 259168
Ignoring some of the mental bounce/spin (I was testing 0 & 100 slider ratings), you can see just how easy it was to run up and bowl the same ball over and over again. Bowlers now appear to have some variance to them, and I would imagine, though it would need testing, that the level of variance ball to ball is dictated by their attributes.

Verdict?

Better bowlers will put the ball where you mean for it to go more often than poorer bowlers. This is good to see! Oh, and Broad bowls faster than Anderson, and his deliveries bounce higher. No rocket science on display there.

Spoiler: Jofra Archer

So, Broad bowls faster than Anderson, and his deliveries clear the stumps by more. That makes sense.

Jofra bowls faster than Broad, so tracking the logic, his deliveries will be highest above the stumps out of the three. Correct?

View attachment 259169
Incorrect. All these Archer deliveries were between 92.5 and 96mph.

As an aside, I would have to check but I'd imagine that Jimmy's attributes > Broad's attributes > Archer's attributes. You can see how much variance there is here, with three deliveries that would be milked to leg, one that is just outside off, and one that is wider outside off. Quite the mixed bag from Jofra!

Going back to the relationship between bounce and delivery speed, let's compare. Red balls are deliveries by Broad, blue is Archer.

View attachment 259171
Well, there you have it. Despite his deliveries being the best part of 5 or so MPH slower, Broad gets more bounce than Archer.

Reasons? Can't be sure for certain but my guess would be two-fold. One is bowling action, with Broad potentially having a higher release point than Archer, giving him more bounce. The other is height. Broad is 6'4", Archer is about 5'10".

Verdict?

Delivery speed doesn't equal bounce. You need to know your bowlers and how they bowl to get the best out of them.

For example, you may think that if you wanted to bounce a batsman out, Archer's express pace might be best. In truth, it could be Broad and his higher release point that is better suited. Or Mark Wood, for that matter.

Also, we've got another example of bowler variance and how attributes may make for more consistent bowlers. Lovely.

A bit about pitch wear​

After the above findings, I simmed through the rest of the match until the start of the fourth day. Predictably England were struggling and needed about 400 runs batting last. Good luck chaps!

The reason I simmed on was to see how the pitch would behave on day 4. I would have preferred to use the same bowlers, but not to be. Pitch wear was on fast.

Spoiler: Hazelwood + Cummins

Following the same method as before, here's five from Josh:

View attachment 259173
88-91 mph. Is there any variable bounce? There is not. Is there any significant seam movement that suggests cracks have opened or the pitch now favours the bowler? Doesn't look like it.

Small sample size, but that's how it looked to me.

Here's Cummins:

View attachment 259174
91-93mph. The mucky brown colour is meant to be yellow, ball 5. Its the outlier, but by the looks of things, it just started wider than the rest and stayed wide. The wider line probably attributed for the lower bounce as well. Some good consistency there, sadly.

Verdict?

In a very small sample size, there was no immediately obvious difference in a day 4 pitch than day 1, for seamers. I did simulate, not play, if that impacts things.

TL;DR​

• There's plenty of examples in the spoilers above about what lengths you need to bowl to threated the stumps with the base slider set on a Dry, Hard pitch. Bowl full, basically, or take on the bails with a medium-fast bowler and after touch.
• There's some interesting findings on bowler variance, and how delivery consistency could be affected by attributes.
• Faster deliveries do not always bounce the highest. Bowler action and height potentially plays a part.
• In an incredibly small, simmed sample, there didn't appear to be any pitch wear that affected bounce or seam movement on standard deliveries from pace bowlers on day 1 compared to day 4.

Love all the effort you're putting into this, when I eventually decide to jump the gun and delve into C22, which is inevitable, I'll be sure to check back here on what to tinker my sliders to.

 

[Rumple43]

Love all the effort you're putting into this, when I eventually decide to jump the gun and delve into C22, which is inevitable, I'll be sure to check back here on what to tinker my sliders to.

Thanks mate, very kind

I'm sure some folk find it pretty dull, but it actually interests me a fair bit. Plus putting stuff on here and chatting fills the time when I can't get on the PS4!

 

[anandponnath]

I am personally a fan of lower shot force, but a higher boost slider for ideal timing.

That way there is a solid reward for timing your shots spot on, and more of a penalty for anything less. Scoring can be achieved with good batting, which is how it should be

I'm generous with the pitch marker setting on hardest batting, but that setting seems to have vanished now. Sigh!

 

[Ken Tremendous]

Brilliant analysis @Rumple43

Such a shame age of pitch etc doesnt seem to affect bowling conditions, its key to creating a realistic cricket simulation and BA have never really bothered with this, ever, sadly.

Be interested to see similar analysis for spinners on Day 1 v 4, does it turn more?

 

[Zenatenage]

Between 74 and 76 seems to be best for the most realistic spin bounce for me having tried between 70 and 80.

 

[Rumple43]

Brilliant analysis @Rumple43

Such a shame age of pitch etc doesnt seem to affect bowling conditions, its key to creating a realistic cricket simulation and BA have never really bothered with this, ever, sadly.

Be interested to see similar analysis for spinners on Day 1 v 4, does it turn more?

That's what I was going to test next.

Between 74 and 76 seems to be best for the most realistic spin bounce for me having tried between 70 and 80.

Awesome, I'll give this a try as well. Top work, cheers!

 

[Rumple43]

Tell you what, I've only just noticed that the spin bounce slider only affects "bounce" deliveries, it isn't universal to all spin deliveries.

I feel like such a fool.... lol