Tendulkar v Inzamam TEST CRICKET ONLY

[shravi]

I had the same thing in mind, but I'm not too good at explaining myself with paper and pen (keyboard). Inzy, also had everything "shuved" on his shoulders, and he had no choice but to be consistent.

As opposed to the Indian selectors who said, "You don't have to be consistent if you don't want to be"?

 

[Insomniac]

Sureshot, can you clarify the type of analysis that you want?

Do you want Sachin's averages when the batsmen around him succeed?

I do understand that you want the Indian batsmen's averages in games that Sachin has choked in, however, would that mean that I go through every game and analyze it to see if he choked or am I completely lost

If thats what you want, I'll be back next week

 

[vaibhav mehta]

Poorly done vaiby, in fact very poorly done

lol..Again I need to tell you that I can't give up my life to this thread.
If you have posted one year before this when I used to be a Most active poster on PC,I would have answered you more briefly.
Anyway Apart from all your points,How could you say someone Choker who averages 62 in the Matches that his team has won?
It is still lower than Inzi but still higher than Sachin's normal Test average.
So actually you are misusing the Word 'Choker'.

Sachin averages 82.16 on away Venues when India won and it is higher than Inzi's (68.77). So no way you can call him Choker.

As I told I don't mind anyone > Sachin until He drives Ferrari which might be only a dream for other Asian Cricketers.

And If Inzi > Sachin in pressure conditions then M Boucher > Ponting,Inzi,Lara and Sachin.

 

[sohum]

I said I would stay away from this thread but I have the sudden want to waste the next two weeks of my life conducting an in-depth statistical analysis of Sachin Tendulkar's Test career. My Excel skills will definitely come in handy and if I do not indeed stop mid-way, I will provide my spreadsheets for further analysis.

As for the argument that Sachin Tendulkar isn't one of the top 5 batsmen, all I have to say is that Sachin, Lara and Ponting are on the fringes of being the best 5 Test batsmen to have played the game. You will obviously have ignored all the cricketers that you did not have the pleasure to watch, but I can assure you that until players such as Kallis, Sangakkara, Yousuf and company prove their worth for an extended period of time (for example Sachin, who has proved his worth for 20 years), they will just not be looked at in the same vein.

There have been fine batsmen from around the world and many finer batsmen from Pakistan itself, other than Inzy. Anyhow, I will be conducting my analysis starting from the 25th onwards, when I have time to utilize Cricinfo's StatsGuru analysis.

But I will leave you with a slight tidbit. One of the finest measures for the quality of a Test batsman is their conversion rate. After all, Test cricket is not about getting a quick knock, it is about converting a start into such a score that dominates. In that regard, Tendulkar has scored 39 centuries and 49 fifties, a conversion rate of 44%. That means that almost every other time that Sachin gets to a fifty, he gets to a hundred. In contrast, Inzy has reached 25 centuries and 46 fifties. That's a conversion rate of 35%. Which, in effect, shows that once Tendulkar gets the start, he is more likely than Inzy to make it into a good one.

Further deducing, given Tendulkar's higher average, one can safely assume that he scores more than Inzy in a given knock. Given that he is more likely to convert a start into a century than Inzy, it is really the onus of the bowlers to deliver a win than Sachin himself.

But that's just a taster. I'm going to really get into these stats to prove that your claim that Sachin is not a legend of the Test game to be an analysis conducted by a poor fool with not too many tools.

 

[h123786]

Yeah now what about that zmario?look if u say sachin isnt no legend then ur certainly being biased but i respect inzi as well he is a legend as well but ur certainly wrong in sayin that inzi is ahead of tendy theres no freakin way.....

 

[shubhrayu]

because Tendulkar have played more matchs then Inzaman and plus Tendulkar opens for India

Tendulkar does not open in test matches and he played more matches than that boiled potato because he is much talented than him and much more fit than him and because of his own talent Tendulkar made his test debut at 16 and so he has played more matches

 

[Sureshot]

Sureshot, can you clarify the type of analysis that you want?

Do you want Sachin's averages when the batsmen around him succeed?

I do understand that you want the Indian batsmen's averages in games that Sachin has choked in, however, would that mean that I go through every game and analyze it to see if he choked or am I completely lost

If thats what you want, I'll be back next week

No, you're on the right tracks. Want me to bring you some coffee? Triple shot?

 

[Insomniac]

lol..Again I need to tell you that I can't give up my life to this thread.
If you have posted one year before this when I used to be a Most active poster on PC,I would have answered you more briefly.
Anyway Apart from all your points,How could you say someone Choker who averages 62 in the Matches that his team has won?
It is still lower than Inzi but still higher than Sachin's normal Test average.
So actually you are misusing the Word 'Choker'.

Sachin averages 82.16 on away Venues when India won and it is higher than Inzi's (68.77). So no way you can call him Choker.

And on home grounds he averages 54.08, lower than his career average. He can't deal with Indian crowds

As I told I don't mind anyone > Sachin until He drives Ferrari which might be only a dream for other Asian Cricketers.

Inzamam has a Porsche, although I think that came from ICL money

Besides, what the hell does that have to do with it (the car they drive - for all you know, Sachin's dad could have been CEO of Microsoft in India.

And If Inzi > Sachin in pressure conditions then M Boucher > Ponting,Inzi,Lara and Sachin.

Regarding your lovely URL, you accuse me of filtering out obnoxious stats to support me, yet you're doing that? First of all, Boucher has only a high score of 45, helped by his not outs. Boucher is also a very underrated player, as he often does take his team to victory (if and when required, unlike Sachin).

Also, this thread has NOTHING to do with Boucher. This is Sachin v Inzamam. Not Sachin v Inzamam and everyone above, below, and inbetween them.

I said I would stay away from this thread but I have the sudden want to waste the next two weeks of my life conducting an in-depth statistical analysis of Sachin Tendulkar's Test career. My Excel skills will definitely come in handy and if I do not indeed stop mid-way, I will provide my spreadsheets for further analysis.

As for the argument that Sachin Tendulkar isn't one of the top 5 batsmen, all I have to say is that Sachin, Lara and Ponting are on the fringes of being the best 5 Test batsmen to have played the game. You will obviously have ignored all the cricketers that you did not have the pleasure to watch, but I can assure you that until players such as Kallis, Sangakkara, Yousuf and company prove their worth for an extended period of time (for example Sachin, who has proved his worth for 20 years), they will just not be looked at in the same vein.

There have been fine batsmen from around the world and many finer batsmen from Pakistan itself, other than Inzy. Anyhow, I will be conducting my analysis starting from the 25th onwards, when I have time to utilize Cricinfo's StatsGuru analysis.

But I will leave you with a slight tidbit. One of the finest measures for the quality of a Test batsman is their conversion rate. After all, Test cricket is not about getting a quick knock, it is about converting a start into such a score that dominates. In that regard, Tendulkar has scored 39 centuries and 49 fifties, a conversion rate of 44%. That means that almost every other time that Sachin gets to a fifty, he gets to a hundred. In contrast, Inzy has reached 25 centuries and 46 fifties. That's a conversion rate of 35%. Which, in effect, shows that once Tendulkar gets the start, he is more likely than Inzy to make it into a good one.

Further deducing, given Tendulkar's higher average, one can safely assume that he scores more than Inzy in a given knock. Given that he is more likely to convert a start into a century than Inzy, it is really the onus of the bowlers to deliver a win than Sachin himself.

But that's just a taster. I'm going to really get into these stats to prove that your claim that Sachin is not a legend of the Test game to be an analysis conducted by a poor fool with not too many tools.

I am a poor fool? How about you watch your language, before I start bringing the curry muncher insults.

Tell me this. Wasim and Waqar were very well past their prime after 2001. Hell, give it 2002. Actually, lets go further - 2003, where everyone will admit, Wasim and Waqar were past it.

You guys are adament that Inzamam's average is so high in wins because he had Waqar and Wasim to win him games. Who did Inzamam have to win him games, other than injury-prone Akhtar?

Inzamam averaged 90.33 in Pakistan wins since 2003.

Take a look at the averages since 2002 and 2001, when Waqar and Wasim were slowly on the decline. Then tell me, that Inzamam's average is so high due to matches being won by Wasim and Waqar.

Sachin is NOWHERE near the top 5 test batsmen.

Please tell me, how Sachin is greater than:

Mohammad Yousuf, Jacques Kallis, Rahul Dravid, and Kumar Sangakkara. It seems you have put Lara and Ponting in your top 5, but please tell me how Sachin is better than those 4 players.

Short answers will do.

Tendulkar does not open in test matches and he played more matches than that boiled potato because he is much talented than him and much more fit than him and because of his own talent Tendulkar made his test debut at 16 and so he has played more matches

What about your choker?

Tendulkar played more matches because he debuted at 16. Inzamam debuted late, because we had Ijaz and Imran and Javed Miandad as well as Zaheer Abbas. The middle order was always filled. Honestly, Inzamam hasn't been dropped many times (maybe once or twice, 3 times possibly the most) since he debuted in tests.

Also Sureshot, I will get a start on your analysis. I expect a PlanetCricket coffee, and some vCash along with it

 

[Insomniac]

When the batsmen around Sachin succeed, his average is 9.85. This is in wins.

The most recent game where Sachin choked while the batsmen around him succeeded :

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/match/343730.html

In this match, Sehwag, Gambhir, and Dravid to an extent performed.

Now in this match, India's bowlers bowled well to limit Austalia to only 212, thanks to RP Singh and Co. after India scored 330.

India had a lead, but needed to build on it to get a big total to win the game. Sachin came in at 82/3.

Sachin went, LBW to Lee

Cricinfo commentary: 24.4 Lee to Tendulkar, OUT, he's out! That's massive, Tendulkar deceived by the pace of a good-lenght delivery which nips back in from outside off and traps him plumb as he tries to work on the leg-side
SR Tendulkar lbw b Lee 13 (33m 25b 2x4 0x6) SR: 52.00
So Tendulkar fails before his second-innings average of 16 against the Aussies. This is big, very big. Australia's tails ping right up immediately


Heres another one in Ahmedabad vs Sri Lanka. India are in a spot of bother at 52-2, as Sachin Tendulkar walks in. He hits the ball straight to bat pad, and looked quite clueless.

Luckily, Laxman scored a 100, with contributions by Pathan and Dhoni.

In the 2nd innings of the match, (after Harbhajahn ripped through SL), Sachin was required to get India to a big lead. Sehwag got out first ball of the innings, and Laxman was caught-behind.

In come Sachin, 9-2. He hangs around for a bit, comes on Dilshan. An easy ball, should have been swept or hit away for 4. Padded up, with bat behind pad. Given out LBW.

This time, Yuvraj with Agarkar, Kumble, and Harbhajahn got India to a 500+ lead, and were able to bowl out SL

Let's go to the famous Kolkota test in 2001.

As I'm sure most know, Australia scored around 440.

India collapsed to 170. Tendulkar came in at 34-2, and I believe left a ball that pitched on the stumps, and was full. Tendulkar went for 10.

Now, following on, the openers gave India a good start. In comes Tendulkar at 97-2.

VVS Laxman needed Tendulkar to hang around with him, as I believe India were looking for just a draw (at that stage). But no, Tendulkar has to go for a wide slash way outside his off stump, and gets caught behind for 10. VVS Laxman was able to score 281, and Rahul Dravid supported him brilliantly with 180.

Theres the difference clearly between Tendulkar and Inzamam, Laxman, and Dravid. Inzamam, Laxman, and Dravid can play such innings, while when Tendulkar is faced with something similar, he goes usually quite quickly.

Inzamam with the same critera averages 10.26. Now the criteria was matches won, and innings with 25 or less runs.

The matches won will tell us that the other batsmen did score, and the 25 or less runs is to take out the matches won by these 2 batsmen. Now the difference between 9.85 and 10.26 looks very low. However, the one thing that is really key here to both batsmen and their successes to their team.

In 47 test wins, there are 27 tests in which Sachin has scored 25 or less in one innings. In those 27 tests are 30 innings in which Sachin has scored 25 or less but India still win.

In 49 test wins, there are again 27 tests in which Inzamam has scored 25 or less in one innings. In those 27 tests there are 25 innings in which Inzamam has scored 25 or less but Pakistan still win.

5 important innings = 2 1/2 tests difference. While it doesn't look like a lot, it is

Make of it what you will. I think the choking tag to Tendulkar comes from visual evidence, and not statistics.

Sureshot, if this isn't what you were looking for, please let me know.

The relevant statsguru pages used in this analysis for those doubting:

http://stats.cricinfo.com/statsguru...5;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting

http://stats.cricinfo.com/statsguru...5;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting

Then in Inzamam and Sachin's career summary pages, I looked at the number of wins both batsmen have been in.

Please keep in mind, that Inzamam played in 120 tests, and Sachin played in 150 tests. For those who think the gap isn't very wide, think again. Inzamama comes up trumps again.

If you want to look at it this way, Inzamam is the match-winner, Sachin is the match-drawer.

 

[usy]

No, you're on the right tracks. Want me to bring you some coffee? Triple shot?

lmao, even sureshot can make jokes wow.

 

[Master Khan]

Tendulkar haven't even want pass 300 or 250 runs in a inning yet
Inzaman scored 329 against New Zealand.

 

[Sureshot]

Guys, this is one last warning. Throwing (or threatening to throw) around insults is not acceptable. One more and the thread is closed and users will be dealt with.

 

[Insomniac]

Guys, this is one last warning. Throwing (or threatening to throw) around insults is not acceptable. One more and the thread is closed and users will be dealt with.

Is my following post above close to what you were looking for?

 

[lightbulb]

Tendulkar haven't even want pass 300 or 250 runs in a inning yet
Inzaman scored 329 against New Zealand.

And? Rob Key has a double hundred but he only averages 30 or so in tests. Having a big score to your name doesn't necessarily mean you're a brilliant player.

 

[Cricketman]

And on home grounds he averages 54.08, lower than his career average. He can't deal with Indian crowds

Inzamam has a Porsche, although I think that came from ICL money

Yes yes, an average of 54 is verrrrry bad, isn't it? Oh, and his terrible average at home is only eight higher then inzi's career average...

And you just cannot compare a Ferrari with a Porche. It's like comparing a gourmet meal from a five star resteraunt to pizza hut or something.

Cricketman added 15 Minutes and 19 Seconds later...

Lets go on to see innings where Sachin has helped India shall we?

155 v South Africa, Bloemfontein, 2001-02
On the first day on an overseas series, India's plight is a familiar one - four down for 68, with all the wickets going just the way the South Africans expected - to rising balls. Tendulkar has a debutant for company, with another to follow. He takes 17 balls to score his first run, but 101 come off the next 97 deliveries. It isn't the prettiest of Tendulkar's Test tons, but it is one of the most savage, characterised by pulls and vicious upper-cuts. The South Africans have a plan for India, and Tendulkar makes a mockery of it.

119 not out v England, Old Trafford, 1990
England pile up 519 on a benign pitch, and India reply with 432. England stretch the lead to 407, and though the pitch is still good and the bowling (Malcolm, Fraser, Lewis, Hemmings) not terribly menacing, India find themselves in deep water at 127 for 5 with only one recognised batsman left. And he's only 17 years old. Tendulkar battles for nearly four hours, grimly but never dourly, and ends the day with 119.

Century number 35:
At exactly 16:44:19, in fading light on the first day of the second Test against Sri Lanka, at the Feroz Shah Kotla Sachin Tendulkar became Test cricket's most prolific century scorer. With a flick through square-leg off Chaminda Vaas he reached his 35th Test century, going past Sunil Gavaskar's record of 34 Test centuries. Gavaskar's record had stood for 22 years. As soon as Tendulkar reached his century, which included 13 fours and one straight six, and came off 177 balls, play was stopped for bad light with the score on 245 for 3 off 75.4 overs. Tendulkar was not out on an even 100, and had spent 279 minutes at the crease

Century No: 31(3rd Test v West Indies in India 2002 at Eden Gardens, Kolkata)

India had comfortably won the first 2 Tests and West Indies were looking to salvage some pride. West Indies had won the first round of the 3rd Test by taking a 139 run lead in the first innings. Now it was India's turn to be on the back foot and play for time and save the Test match. The Caribbean bowlers had their tails up when they had India tottering at 87 for 4 with Sehwag, Dravid & Ganguly back in the hut. But our maestro had other plans and put on a 214 run partnership with VVS Laxman (154) and making 176 in the process which was incidentally his first hundred in Kolkata and India had comfortably saved the Test match and won the three Test series 2-0

I can name many many more, but i simply don't have the time nor care to.

Oh, and another reason that Sachin's hundreds come up as draws is because the rest of our team was pants and the master simply couldn't do it alone.