The PlanetCricket View: The Cricket Carnival

[shravi]

Ok i hear you on this & before i attempt to question and debate it, as an indian answer me these key questions:

- How much did the BCCI pay its domestic cricketers before IPL came about?

- How many or what is the percentage of crap indian players that play in IPL teams/squads that are not part of a traditional ranji trophy/duleep trophy/mushtaq ali state team/squad for domestic 4-day/odi/t20 competitions in India?

I am not sure about how much but it pales in comparison to this- "Under-22 players are to be remunerated with a minimum annual salary of US $20,000 while for others it is US $50,000."

This is money they could only have dreamed of.

I would say the majority of IPL players you call "crap" also play in the other domestic competitions. They are only crap in the IPL because they are often being compared to high caliber international players. However, relative to their Indian peers, their average ability is still enough to get them into Ranji teams.

 

[War]

the only saffers I've known in my time agree with the quota system, they're not cricket fans but that's rather the point. it's a balance redress that's far wider than cricket.

Yes of course i'm not naive to not know that quota system implementation is far wider than cricket due to contry's dark history. The coloured/black S African's i know while they disagree with it in cricket, accuse the cricket board for not doing enough to promote cricket in the rural communities.

But cricket among black people in S Africa is difficult trying to promote, because its a mental society thing that you can't change so abruptly. Its like trying encourage black people in England born after 1985 to like cricket or Asian people in Trinidad & Guyana to play football or a large maori of New Zealand like Ryder/Taylor to be more for cricket than Rugby.

Cricket in S Africa has a stigma in s africa of being a elite white man sport. While the white folks in S Africa view football as a "ghetto/poor man sport".

Even while Ntini was at the top of his game & was voted the most popular S Africa sportsman for numerous, the love for cricket among black S Africa has not noticeablt increased based on what i've understood. As things stand today Steven Pienaar is wayyyyyy more popular & more recognizable to black saffies than Jacques Kallis or Dale Steyn.

S Africa basically have been able to implement quota's successfully because the ICC is so weak. I don't follow rugby, but i was made aware years ago that the IRB which is solid governing body over rugby has rules which has prevented quota's from being in springbooks team at the national level - they have only been able to implement it to some degree on domestic rugby in S Africa.

Of course for aforementioned reasons few whites hardly ever played for S Africa's football team. So the quota issue isn't relevant in football (although i've heard many s africa's call this reverse racism) - but if quota's was an issue in football, it could have never been implemented because of FIFA rules prohibiting governing intervention/influence for whatever reason over governing bodies to dictate team selections etc etc, because they would face bans.

again, absolutely nothing to do with sport. maschareno is an EU citizen probably because most argentinians have italian or spanish backgrounds and are entitled to dual nationality. my girlfriend was argentinian and her family moved to spain under exactly the same laws.

I presume Song applied for citizenship, another law open to anyone regardless of their occupation, it's open to anyone depending on the countries rules. these rules are well beyond the remit of sporting bodies, and however all powerful the BCCI may be it doesn't have that power.

You brought up the non-eu player point in football. So i was just highlighting that despite the restrictions they have in a few major european leagues, their is still means by which if a club wants to pick them, they can buy them if they have relevant documents.

Every major team in Europe basically has a notable african player now & since 2000.

that article you posted seems to be concerned with a)the competitiveness of brazilian teams in the south american champions league thing b)raising the profile and c) mentions the complaints of european leagues but brushes them aside with brazil having tons of good players already and established youth academies.


a)there is a champions league in T20, but really, who cares that much about it? and given t20 leagues are mercenary, getting rid of foreign restrictions in that would spell utter chaos or a joke tournament, so A is moot.

b)the IPL is already the highest status domestic T20, so that's unecessary in this regard.

and c) as you say india still needs to develop talent and the IPL is 6 years old. how on earth will closing the league to these young players develop their talent?

Amm i'm not too sure what you are trying to say or are going with points a & b my friend. However on point c) which i have heard regurgitated a lot in the last 6 years - i will ask you how is playing T20 cricket in the IPL going to help Indian youngsters improve in test cricket?

IPL has to be the means the BCCI would uses the money gained from the tournament to improve their domestic 4-day game, pitches, fast bowlers, batsmen's techniques. The same how the English FA (albeit too late) is using the money from the premier league to build st.georges park which will hopefully English football local talent.

 

[Aalay]

Watch from 22nd minute of the video. They only talk about this IPL issue for only about a minute or so but thought it would be worth posting here.

 

[War]

I am not sure about how much but it pales in comparison to this- "Under-22 players are to be remunerated with a minimum annual salary of US $20,000 while for others it is US $50,000."

This is money they could only have dreamed of.

Ok that's fine. But surely seasoned domestic cricketers in India should have had a decent salary?. BCCI has had money long before IPL to be able to pay their domestic players well.

I know for a fact that even in the West Indies which is weak financial board, domestic players who have never played for the windies make enough money from regional cricket to be able to buy fancy cars & live in solid homes.

I would say the majority of IPL players you call "crap" also play in the other domestic competitions. They are only crap in the IPL because they are often being compared to high caliber international players. However, relative to their Indian peers, their average ability is still enough to get them into Ranji teams.

No, they are two types of Indian players in IPL outside of national Indian players:

a) the seasoned domestic players from the traditional ranji/duleep trophy state who are maybe on the fringes of the India senior team or probably will never play for India & are domestic journeymen.

b) the crap players who generally are not part of those traditional teams, but are being picked in IPL teams/squad basically because of 4 international player restriction.

Its the "b" category & the journey men "a" category i'm referring to which stinks up the IPL due to their inept cricket abilities.

Only the best of the a) category players deserve US$20-50,000 salary so the tournament should be to avoid repeating myself:

As i'be always stated since the 1st tournament, take out that player restriction and allow the best established indian national players + quality young indian talent/quality domestic indian players on merit + overseas stars in a starting XI. The tournament can be crickets version of the premiership, la liga, serie a, bundesliga & more people outside of the Indian population would watch it, which would be great for everyone.

 

[War]

Harsha Bhogle: Why the IPL can't be much more than a launch pad | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

Absolutely timely article, has Bhogle been sniffing around planetcricket? Key point about Indian IPL players that i've been saying all along:

But it doesn't guarantee you anything, often not even a spot in the Ranji Trophy, as Paul Valthaty and Manvinder Bisla discovered. And as Tiwary now knows, the reputation you acquire in the IPL doesn't count for too much in the Ranji Trophy either.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

I think you've got an article that's about the good of the players mixed up with your intial point about what's good for the league. how is anyone going to use it as a launch pad if it's crammed with known internationals? and why is the IPL made worse by having it's better performers not able to perform in FC cricket? bisla (apparently) won the final for KKR, why on earth would you think he's too rubbish for the league, he's the exact opposite.

if anything, what bhogle would seem to prefer is making the skill level in IPL lower in order to give FC specialists more of a chance to get picked up.

 

[War]

I am sure we all have good eyes and can see & read well. I clearly was not referring to the entire Bhogle article SBH. But rather the portion of quote which i took the liberty of highlighting. So let me try this again:

But it doesn't guarantee you anything, often not even a spot in the Ranji Trophy, as Paul Valthaty and Manvinder Bisla discovered. And as Tiwary now knows, the reputation you acquire in the IPL doesn't count for too much in the Ranji Trophy either.

That refers to my consistent assertion about the amount of poor/crap players in the IPL teams that don't even get recognized & picked by the traditional ranji trophy teams. That sort of Indian player should not be given a free pass into IPL teams, especially in the match day starting XIs.

if anything, what bhogle would seem to prefer is making the skill level in IPL lower in order to give FC specialists more of a chance to get picked up.

Nah i'm fairly sure he is not suggesting that in a larger context. His last four paragraphs simply explained something i have noticed a while too, with regards to how young Indian players view the IPL as potentially & dangerously for India's long term future as the only cricket in their lives. As Poster sharvi highlighted in the thread also, due financial IPL rewards, some families now see cricket as long term career option, compared to the pre-IPL days an ranji/duleep trophy only domestic cricket.

 

[shravi]

It seems you've come into this thread with preconceived notions and then using articles to make them say things that they aren't. Bhogle highlighted two, maybe three players. And you are using that as a basis for your argument. There are twenty seven Ranji teams. There are only nine IPL teams. The majority of these players do play for Ranji teams. Even basic math suggests as much. You are using a few exceptions and making them seem like the norm.

Your points are just a little confusing. One- you're saying that you want the overseas player limit removed. Two- you're saying that even with the limit, the best Ranji players are not being selected.

And even if they aren't. So what!? This is a T20 competition! It's not meant to find test match players. As for India not doing well in T20Is because of or in spite of the IPL, well, that was never the intention.

As much as I hate the IPL, just get used to it, buddy. It's here to stay.

 

[War]

It seems you've come into this thread with preconceived notions and then using articles to make them say things that they aren't. Bhogle highlighted two, maybe three players. And you are using that as a basis for your argument. There are twenty seven Ranji teams. There are only nine IPL teams. The majority of these players do play for Ranji teams. Even basic math suggests as much. You are using a few exceptions and making them seem like the norm.

Your points are just a little confusing. One- you're saying that you want the overseas player limit removed. Two- you're saying that even with the limit, the best Ranji players are not being selected.

They are no pre conceived notions here on my behalf. If i did have any i would not have bothered to discuss this with anyone. As a simple concern cricket fan, like always i'm aware of the ill's of the IPL on work cricket & why it should either be eradicated or have its format changed. I am very open minded to hear if anyone can give a sound defense of the IPL in its current format & structure for India & world cricket and after 6 tournaments i am still waiting to find out.


On the balance of the squad in the 9 IPL teams and 27 Ranji trophy 4-day teams/5 Duleep trophy OD teams, i don't believe that assertion is correct, because it was brought to my it mentioned in an article years ago.

I researched it before and in every IPL team their is a section of Indian players who are essentially either fringe/not part/not regulars of traditional Ranji/Duleep trophy teams, who are only being picked in IPL squads & mainly the starting XI because of international player restriction.


That is specific point in the much larger IPL discussion that Bhogle made in his article that relates to the point i have been making about such players. In no way was i referring to the entire article because quite obviously the rest of his article does not have any relation to this thread. I thought i made this very clear to highlighting the portion of quote.

You want articles similar to points i make?, here is a few:

- Why the IPL should fail

- http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/567972.html


- http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/574849.html

All the IPL teams need to do is buy more proper Indian domestic players of (maybe of t20 quality) & less foreign stars to get a proper squad balance of established indian stats + solid Indian domestic players + foreign stars. Very simple stuff.

Because lets to forget also that during the IPL auction those owners waste a lot of money to buy foreign stars & many of them just sit on the bench for an entire season just to collect their full pay check.

And even if they aren't. So what!? This is a T20 competition! It's not meant to find test match players. As for India not doing well in T20Is because of or in spite of the IPL, well, that was never the intention.

As much as I hate the IPL, just get used to it, buddy. It's here to stay.

Where have i ever stated the IPL should be used to find test match player?. I have consistent said this with regards to this point:

A smart logic is for India to use the massive sums of money they are getting from the IPL to help fix their historical weak area's in test cricket over the years, such as:

- Put more life in their domestic pitches so that is not roads all the time. So that when Indian batsmen go overseas they don't always look so vulnerable.

- Improve on the foundations of the MRF pace foundations so that they can actually start producing a proper conveyor belt of fast-bowlers that would make them a better rounded team in all conditions worldwide. Do date in their 75 year history on Kapil Dev, Srinath & Zaheer Khan are the India fast-bowlers who have had long careers with any distinction.

- Have a prime home domestic season like what Australia & England have. I found it amazing when the BCCI president N Srinivasam suggested a year ago that they have yet to do this. India Cricket News: BCCI wants 'prime' home season | ESPN Cricinfo

Ha what?...So if the IPL was never intended to improve Indian's T20 performances on the national stage, what tournament is then?. The Mushtaq Ali domestic T20 cup?

Saying you hate the IPL, but then saying "its here to say" is the same defeatism thinking that the members board who have real influence in the game have towards India & the IPL, which is why the state of the game administratively worldwide is such a mess due to BCCI manipulation.

Some people will only full gravitate the doomsday scenario precedent the IPL is setting worldwide, when one of the 3 formats is eventually eradicated most likely ODIs, T20 cricket leagues take over as the game premier format to the death or limiting of test cricket, because that is what the powerful TV broadcasters will eventually want.

 

[Epic]

I'm sorry War, but that argument is absolute rubbish, because those "fringe" players hardly ever make the playing XI, and even when they do, they get dropped a game or 2 after.

 

[War]

That is not true. They are many IPL fringe players who over the 6 seasons for many of the teams get extended runs in the side.


Fact is in all 6 IPL seasons to date only Chennai Super Kings & Mumbai Indians have consistently had the best balanced starting XI between international stars & established Indian national players. RCB & KKR tends to fluctuate.

So due to a combination of poor balancing out of the established Indian players across the IPL teams in the auction & maybe also some paucity of quality international/established domestic Indian T20 players - the other IPL teams have more of those fringe Indian players in a starting XI than normal.

 

[Epic]

That is not true. They are many IPL fringe players who over the 6 seasons for many of the teams get extended runs in the side.

Name some...

 

[War]

Name some...

ThisDinesh Salunke bloke firstly which i never forget. His cricinfo profile tells you all you need to play about him. Never played a Ranji/Duleep match, but got 6 games in the Raj Royals first season.

L Shukla. A regular since the start of the IPL. A indian reject after a few ODIs in the late 90s & is clearly not a good T20. How IPL teams keep buying him is a mystery.

A Chopra & W Jaffer. Had their uses as a test player - one now a solid writer. Never a T20 standard players at any yet got an IPL contracts & got games. Waste of money & player space.

D Das. Got a run in IPL 08 with Raj Royals, looked out of his depth. Not a fixture in any format for bengal in the last 6 years. KKR decides to sign him this year.

I would even argue that in a perfect world guys like Dravid & Laxman should never have played in IPL teams.

Continued with K Goel, W Mota, S Vidyut. A Raut, N Ojha, F Fazal, http:K Khan etc etc etc etc & this is just going through the first 3 seasons of a couple IPL teams randomly based on what i recall.

 

[shravi]

Dinesh Salunke won a TV competition and as you said, only played 6 games... There are anomalies like this in every sport. Laxmi Shukla is a regular with Bengal and for about 2 years was actually on the extreme margins of an India call-up. How can you disrespect two domestic stalwarts like Chopra and Jaffer? It's a slap in the face and bad PR. Besides, Jaffer doesn't even have an altogether shabby T20 record. Also, at the time, T20 was still very new to India and more importantly, the franchise owners. Chopra and Jaffer were two known quantities that lent stability and 'recognizability' in a transition phase. Karan Goel has a very good List A record and for a few matches in the South Africa edition, actually looked upto the task of the IPL. Vidyut is in the same boat as Srikkanth and Gavaskar's son. Even so, he is a nifty squad player who can both bat and bowl a bit. Also, it made sense for Chennai to sign him because he is a local. Naman Ojha was one of the shining lights of Rajasthan Royals and for about 2 years was pushing for India selection. In fact, he even made Central Zone and India A so it's clear the selectors were thinking about him. Kamran Khan was successful in a domestic T20 tournament, called into training, impressed the coaches (especially Warnie), and got a chance. In both the 2009 and 2010 editions, he didn't look entirely out of place. He bowled at pace and earned many plaudits. However, his action was soon found to be suspect and that is why he has disappeared.

 

[War]

Dinesh Salunke won a TV competition and as you said, only played 6 games... There are anomalies like this in every sport. Laxmi Shukla is a regular with Bengal and for about 2 years was actually on the extreme margins of an India call-up. How can you disrespect two domestic stalwarts like Chopra and Jaffer? It's a slap in the face and bad PR. Besides, Jaffer doesn't even have an altogether shabby T20 record. Also, at the time, T20 was still very new to India and more importantly, the franchise owners. Chopra and Jaffer were two known quantities that lent stability and 'recognizability' in a transition phase. Karan Goel has a very good List A record and for a few matches in the South Africa edition, actually looked upto the task of the IPL. Vidyut is in the same boat as Srikkanth and Gavaskar's son. Even so, he is a nifty squad player who can both bat and bowl a bit. Also, it made sense for Chennai to sign him because he is a local. Naman Ojha was one of the shining lights of Rajasthan Royals and for about 2 years was pushing for India selection. In fact, he even made Central Zone and India A so it's clear the selectors were thinking about him. Kamran Khan was successful in a domestic T20 tournament, called into training, impressed the coaches (especially Warnie), and got a chance. In both the 2009 and 2010 editions, he didn't look entirely out of place. He bowled at pace and earned many plaudits. However, his action was soon found to be suspect and that is why he has disappeared.

I'm not sure how much of an anomaly that first guy was because i see a similar situation with this guy this year again, although this player didn't get into Mumbai Indians via winning a TV competition - Jasprit Bumrah | India Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo.

Not established in any FC, OD, just a few games in the M-Ali T20 cup & into IPL. And i almost forgOt this bloke Harmeet Singh | India Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo - he certainly isn't established in any format in local Indian domestic cricket, yet he is in IPL every year & is one of the worst Indian IPL players i've seen in the 6 seasons.

Chopra & Jaffer are stalwart FC players. You didn't need TO BE a rocket scientist to tell you even in those early days of T20 cricket that they would be dumb buys & would not have an impact in this format. T20 cricket was going on in English since 2003 & although the world didn't take it serious, what made a good T20 player was always evident.

And even if you want to use that excuse the IPL owners in the years since that 1st tournament, they have still wasted money & bought guys like Clarke, Ponting, C'PauL, Sarwan to name a few who were never good/past their best as T20 players. And continued to persist with Indian legends like Dravid & Laxman, Tendulkar & overseas Gilchrist, Hayden who are finished as cricketers & really shouldn't be in these IPL teams. Their presence just makes the quality of cricket equally as bad as the average Indian's that place.

I never saw Ojha as a true international quality player for India one day despite his good efforts in the IPL. I was surprised he even got a call up when from a outside view guys like D Karthik & Rayudu seem miles ahead as keeper/batsman than him.

Overall though i can go through the other seasons & find a lot of Indian players like them who are essentially getting game time because of the 4-player rule.

And once more after 6 seasons of finding fault with this ludicrous player restriction rule, i'm yet to hear a clear reason why not getting rid of the rule will affect India in any way on or off the field.

As things stand if IPL team that are allowed to pick the best balance of proven national Indian players + good enough Indian domestic players + international stars (a balance that Chennai Kings & Mumbai Indian have done the best off all the IPL in the 6 seasons), IT will continue to benefit India on & off the field & will actually lift the standard of T20 cricket on view, which is cruelly absent from the IPL every season.