Batting experience in the Next Version

[cooks1st100]

Much in the same vein as Dutch's bowling thread. How can the batting experience be improved on?

I have quite a few ideas in this area, the main ones being a revamp in the shots, a change with defending/leaving/evading the ball and improved bowling AI.

Shots: Personally I'd really like to see the double trigger shots removed as 1: I don't see a lot of point in them as you can reach the boundary with the standard strokes, 2: They look far too sloggy from an animation point of view and 3: I think there could be a better range of shots to replace them.

I'd like to see them replaced with guiding shots and dabs putting more emphasis on finding gaps in the filed and pushing for 1's, 2's and 3's.

I'd also like to see finding the middle of the bat being a bigger feature. Maybe along the lines of having a timing window and in that window would be another smaller window for the middle. The size of this would depend on the batsman's rating and would also increase or decrease according to how the batsman's innings is progressing.

I will add my other ideas later rather then bombarding the thread with them all at once.

 

[grkrama]

To me the key things would be technically the batting needs to have better footwork, of now whole lots of shots even the good cover drives the player plays with his frontfoot away form delivery rather than towards.

This leads to a lot of anomalies, also the way physics is handled is also questionable especially against spinners, it would be impossible to latecut a spinner for six as well as almost improbable to legglance loft in IRL.


Real life loose deliveries aren't punishable in the game like say a loopy full toss or a long hop from a spinner.

Against spinners a lot of shots need improvement. Square cut, sweeps themselves , soft glances.



Interms of mechanism the topic that's been discussed before a lot a way to highlight length just before the delivery is bowled and add that to a batsman's eye thing so that it varies on batsman's form skill etc.



Soft glances and nudges need to be a vital part of batting for both AI and Human batsman.

Also add Top edges , leading edges. More variety in shot physics. Right now a lot of shots travel in the same exact manner a lot of time also for example in real life i would expect a full length delivery creamed through covers to travel faster than say a Short pitch delivery punched through covers but it is exact opposite in the game.

Also against Fast deliveries physics doesnt feel right, when you hit a fast pace bowler the ball flies of your bat but in games it sort of happens opposite, slow deliveries are flying faster than fast ones even when both are timed perfectly respectively.

Also batman moving outside stump to gift his wicket etc need to be addressed there are genuine ways to take wkts this just spoils the game.


plus quite a lot more will keep them coming .



p;s Also i like this idea of specified threads for the specific gameplay part it really helps get the ideas flowing.

 

[Gamer Pradosh]

To me the key things would be technically the batting needs to have better footwork, of now whole lots of shots even the good cover drives the player plays with his frontfoot away form delivery rather than towards.

This leads to a lot of anomalies, also the way physics is handles is also questionable especially against spinners, it would impossible to latecut a spinner for six as well as almost improbable to legglance loft.


Real life loose deliveries aren't punishable in the game like say a loopy full toss or a long hop from a spinner.

Against spinners a lot of shots need improvement. Square cut sweeps themselves , soft glances.



Interms of mechanism the topic that's been discussed before a lot a way to highlight length just before the delivery is bowled and add that to a batsman's eye thing so that it varies on batsman's form skill etc.



Soft glances and nudges need to be a vital part of batting for both AI and Human batsman.

Also add Top edges , leading edges. More variety in shot physics. Right now a lot of shots travel in the same exact manner a lot of time also for example in real life i would expect a full length delivery creamed through covers to travel faster than say a Short pitch delivery punched through covers but it is exact opposite in the game.

Also against Fast deliveries physics doesnt feel right, when you hit a fast pace bowler the ball flies of your bat but in games it sort of happens opposite, slow deliveries are fly faster tahn fast ones even when both are timed perfectly respectively.

Also batman moving outside stump to gift his wicket etc need to be addressed there are genuine ways to take wkts this just spoils the game.


plus quite a lot more will keep them coming .



p;s Also i like this idea of specified threads for the specific gameplay part it really helps get the ideas flowing.

I think we can have a separate thread for batting animation...And we should post the right shot types and shots that need to be added into the game, so we can have a collection for BA to have an idea of the right shots for animating into the game...

Like you have mentioned in the post ,the gap between bat and pad is way too high for the shots and I have got out because of that gap even when the footwork was right...

The difference between pro and legend should just be the amount of importance of footwork thats all IMO as thats what makes a difference in real life as well...

Even take Shikhar Dhawan for example he is a beautiful timer of the ball and has a great footwork to time the ball perfectly but when he was out of form his footwork became more doubtful and was prone to outside edges...This will be the factor that needs to be coded up into the game so combination lack of form and confidence should be shown as bad footwork and in a seaming or swinging wicket should struggle to get the runs...

 

[cooks1st100]

I think we can have a separate thread for batting animation...And we should post the right shot types and shots that need to be added into the game, so we can have a collection for BA to have an idea of the right shots for animating into the game...

I agree

Even take Shikhar Dhawan for example he is a beautiful timer of the ball and has a great footwork to time the ball perfectly but when he was out of form his footwork became more doubtful and was prone to outside edges...This will be the factor that needs to be coded up into the game so combination lack of form and confidence should be shown as bad footwork and in a seaming or swinging wicket should struggle to get the runs..

Footwork should be made a bigger factor, a separate attribute and should definitely be linked to confidence/form. How do Big Ant recreate this though? Would a lower rated/ low confidence batsman take smaller/ slower steps for instance or should there be some degree of computer assistance leading a higher rated/high confidence batsman getting in a better position to play a shot?

 

[grkrama]

i would even like if technically possible to separate footwork from bat swing so once you move LS you get into the position and then bat-swing plays on RS.

This will give great degree of control over footwork and eliminate the game choosing footwork for us.


So basically when i press LS to 2'o clock i move forward with my FF pointing to mid off and then reading the ball i can choose to hit it straight or to covers or if im really skilled glance it to leg side.

 

[Gamer Pradosh]

Footwork should be made a bigger factor, a separate attribute and should definitely be linked to confidence/form. How do Big Ant recreate this though? Would a lower rated/ low confidence batsman take smaller/ slower steps for instance or should there be some degree of computer assistance leading a higher rated/high confidence batsman getting in a better position to play a shot?

These kind of questions would be better when BA starts totally involving into the matter and respond whether such stuff is possible or not but as of now we can develop ideas and let them get an idea where we would like the batting to head towards..

 

[blockerdave]

for me, nothing kills batting more than the fact that every opponent is identical.

you will face identical fields, AI bowling that is as identical as lineups allow, can bat exactly the same. it's anti-immersion.

i have reworked the idea of the bowling plan i have mentioned before, and I would have it something like this:

• the academy should do away with field setting, and instead we create bowling plans.
• the plans would then allow us to set up individual fields, assign what kind of bowling (bowler type, new/old ball, line and length) and what type of dismissal this plan is suiting.
  • they would also specify situation: e.g. new/old ball, new/old batsman, match format etc.
• Each batsman would have 2-4 "vulnerabilities" in each stage of his innings (early, set, big score)... basically a choice from: LBW; bowled (swing/seam); bowled (spin); caught keeper/slips (swing/seam); caught keeper/slips (spin); caught infield (swing/seam); caught infield (spin); caught outfield (swing/seam); caught outfield (spin);
  • top batsman would have 2, lesser skilled 3, rabbits 4
  • the plan just specifies the type of dismissal the plan is trying to effect: it should have no constraint on the actual dismissals achieved
  • the plan would specify at least 1 and up to 3 fields that could be deployed for it
  • the plan would specify ideal bowling line/length, but how well the AI bowl to that is down to bowler ability
• top bowlers would have 3 favoured plans for each type of dismissal applicable to them; part-time/lower skilled bowlers 2.
• each bowler would bowl (as far as their abilities allow) according to one of the plans they have been assigned suitable to one of the batsman's "vulnerabilities" for that stage of his innings
  • the plans would be shareable, so in theory you've got an infinite number of "plans" a bowler might be trying for any specific "vulnerability"
  • a single plan might have >1 field, so even 2 bowlers bowling the exact same plan to you might feel different
  • different captains/bowlers might change fields within plans, or switch to different plans at varying rates
  • different bowlers execute the plans better/worse according to ability

this is the only way i can see you can get really good variation in opponent, and not just team to team but bowler to bowler within teams, without needing a top notch AI. here, the heavy lifting is done in the academy - it's just data configuration.

 

[Deleted member 149013]

for me, nothing kills batting more than the fact that every opponent is identical.

you will face identical fields, AI bowling that is as identical as lineups allow, can bat exactly the same. it's anti-immersion.

i have reworked the idea of the bowling plan i have mentioned before, and I would have it something like this:

• the academy should do away with field setting, and instead we create bowling plans.
• the plans would then allow us to set up individual fields, assign what kind of bowling (bowler type, new/old ball, line and length) and what type of dismissal this plan is suiting.
  • they would also specify situation: e.g. new/old ball, new/old batsman, match format etc.
• Each batsman would have 2-4 "vulnerabilities" in each stage of his innings (early, set, big score)... basically a choice from: LBW; bowled (swing/seam); bowled (spin); caught keeper/slips (swing/seam); caught keeper/slips (spin); caught infield (swing/seam); caught infield (spin); caught outfield (swing/seam); caught outfield (spin);
  • top batsman would have 2, lesser skilled 3, rabbits 4
  • the plan just specifies the type of dismissal the plan is trying to effect: it should have no constraint on the actual dismissals achieved
  • the plan would specify at least 1 and up to 3 fields that could be deployed for it
  • the plan would specify ideal bowling line/length, but how well the AI bowl to that is down to bowler ability
• top bowlers would have 3 favoured plans for each type of dismissal applicable to them; part-time/lower skilled bowlers 2.
• each bowler would bowl (as far as their abilities allow) according to one of the plans they have been assigned suitable to one of the batsman's "vulnerabilities" for that stage of his innings
  • the plans would be shareable, so in theory you've got an infinite number of "plans" a bowler might be trying for any specific "vulnerability"
  • a single plan might have >1 field, so even 2 bowlers bowling the exact same plan to you might feel different
  • different captains/bowlers might change fields within plans, or switch to different plans at varying rates
  • different bowlers execute the plans better/worse according to ability

this is the only way i can see you can get really good variation in opponent, and not just team to team but bowler to bowler within teams, without needing a top notch AI. here, the heavy lifting is done in the academy - it's just data configuration.

Says it all.

It’s capturing the human trait and somehow translating that into a video game that would be the Holy Grail.

While I couldn’t agree more with what you have said is it beyond the capabilities of PlayStation?

If were redesigning the bowling controls plus the whole dynamics of the fielding and batting is this going beyond the budget and current capabilities? It’s more or less reinventing a new cricket game and scrapping what Bradman 14 achieved.

You have came up with some great ideas is there any way you could work these in to the game itself instead of reinventing?

A toned down model which is more realistic to where we are currently I mean these are great insights for Big Ant and future projects.

 

[Ajh1977]

Being able to move the feet before the shot would be a big improvement for me, having the two inputs separate from each othe would also give you a better experience for rocking back to cut after your initial trigger movement. Also being able to move your batsmans position at the crease prior to delivery would feel more natural even if this kind of movement involved pressing a trigger to control feet before delivery. Many players these days take up unorthodox positions especially in limeted overs cricket but we saw Steve Smith doing it during the ashes test series where he would stand out side off to play leg side. Also although purely cosmetic, I would like to see the batsman "take guard" upon arrival at the crease and be able to open or close up his stance.

 

[cooks1st100]

I completely agree with you @blockerdave and I bought up a very similar idea to yours several months ago in regards to assigning bowling plans to bowlers very similar to the system used in cricket coach. I'm in no doubt that this is the way forward, especially if plans could be shared across the community, as you say it takes away from Big Ant having to configure bowling and fields.

We differ in a few ways though. I don't feel the need to specify types of dismissal, for one simply because it is the human batting facing these plans. Just by having attributes that make each batsman you control have their own strengths and weaknesses should be enough without complicating matters. Also by setting the plans ourselves, we will know what we are trying to achieve with the option to be able to write an explanation about it and what it supposed to achieve in the "Plan Editor". So if I decide to DL "Blockerdave's Bouncer Barrage" I can bring up the info about it and it will read something like "a 3 over, around the wicket plan with plenty of short stuff and the odd yorker thrown in for good measure. Especially effective against tailenders"

I would have the plans broken down simply to "attacking" "standard" "defensive" and maybe being able to assign up to 5 plans for each of these. As well as this you would have plans for the 3 different formats so that would be 45 plans that a bowler could be assigned. I do like your idea of better bowlers having more plans.

Bowlers should definitely have roles such as "new ball", "enforcer", "finisher" (for one-day formats), "economical", "partnership breaker". By having these roles it should make it easier for the AI to select the appropriate bowler for the match situation. These roles will make it easier for us to assign plans that suit these types.

This way the AI only has to switch through attacking, standard, defensive according to the match situation whereas the plans themselves would be selected randomly. This could be improved on if the AI was intelligent enough to know what plans were the most successful and as a result be more likely pick those plans. This could definitely be linked to captaincy intelligence/ aggression.

A plan could be anything from a single over up to say 10 overs and the AI should be able to change a plan if it's not working and also be able to move fielders around if a certain area is being targeted but at the same time keeping the plan. Again linked to a captaincy rating, pretty much as you have stated.

 

[cooks1st100]

i would even like if technically possible to separate footwork from bat swing so once you move LS you get into the position and then bat-swing plays on RS.

This will give great degree of control over footwork and eliminate the game choosing footwork for us.

In regards to footwork. It should still be connected the the stick (LHS) if I remember correctly. I would change it though, so that the amount of times you push it forward/ backwards/left/right would be equal to the amount of steps taken. So push it forward twice and you would take 2 steps forward. Want to advance down the track? Push it forward 3/4 times quickly. This would mean having the advance shots as a separate trigger would not be required.

 

[blockerdave]

Says it all.

It’s capturing the human trait and somehow translating that into a video game that would be the Holy Grail.

While I couldn’t agree more with what you have said is it beyond the capabilities of PlayStation?

If were redesigning the bowling controls plus the whole dynamics of the fielding and batting is this going beyond the budget and current capabilities? It’s more or less reinventing a new cricket game and scrapping what Bradman 14 achieved.

You have came up with some great ideas is there any way you could work these in to the game itself instead of reinventing?

A toned down model which is more realistic to where we are currently I mean these are great insights for Big Ant and future projects.

I don't think what I've suggested would require any additional processing power than is currently in the game, especially with the right data structures.

Most of what I'm suggesting is purely academy data configuration and everything is known prior to to delivery - nothing additional is required to be calculated on the fly than what would be done now, though it might be processed differently.

Importantly, my concept essentially requires no AI - the batsman's vulnerability is known, the bowler's plan(s) are set in advance - the picking of an individual plan or field doesn't need a smart AI.

The reason I would prefer my suggestion over the similar idea of @cooks1st100 is precisely that there's no AI or overhead. Allied to that it gives infinite flexibility and variation of opponent and importantly how you bat with a given player:

Eg an Alec Stewart type, vulnerable vs spin first up, could murder it when well set. So with my set up you have that genuine immersion of playing more watchfully against a certain type of bowler or bowling at certain times in your innings.

 

[T.J.Hooker]

My biggest frustration with DBC batting is still that you have to trigger footwork and swing at the same time, which means that it feels like I'm swinging ages before the ball arrives (vs pace and medium. Some of the shots vs spin have much later timing), and before I've had a chance to get a good look at the delivery. I can't time my shots by watching the ball and timing my right stick for the business end of the delivery when the ball actually reaches the batsman. I literally have to time my shots by remembering how far out of the hand the ball needs to be before I hit the right stick.

The annoying thing is that the framework to bat just by watching the ball is clearly in place.

I've been going on about this on and off for over a year now though and I don't think it's something BA want to change, so I'm not sure there's much point in discussing it.

 

[cooks1st100]

This is a comment I picked up on while reading about today's Test match.....

Essentially, Cook plays with the bat pushed ahead of his pad, while Bell plays bat and pad together, dangerous when the balls slides on from the left-armer. Before the interval he survived lbw shouts and a pad-bat chance to silly point.

It's subtle differences like these, that if added would bring so much more to the game.

 

[tazzron]

What destroys the batting experience for me is how hard/impossible it is to effectively play the ball on its merit and succeed. Some sort of signal telling us the approximate area the ball will pitch just before release of delivery could be the solution. Whatever the solution is though, it's obvious the current system needs to change.