Best Bowler Ever.

[Shoaib87]

As well as being unglamorous and not very quick, the other reason McGrath is underrated is Warne's presence. And so the argument goes that McGrath would have been less effective without Warne. Yet it doesn't seem to make much difference to the reputation to other famous bowlers. Any 70s/80s/90s West Indies fast bowler had help at the other end from Holding to Ambrose. Wasim Akram had Waqar Younis, Allan Donald had Pollock and Ntini. There aren't many great bowlers who did it alone. Murali and Hadlee would be the best examples.

Imran as well.Just had Abdul Qadir(Avg 32) at the other end for most of his career,especially when he was at his peak.

 

[Owzat]

There aren't many great bowlers who did it alone. Murali and Hadlee would be the best examples.

But the counter (argument) to that is that Murali and Hadlee had the pick of ends, conditions, little competition for wickets etc ie they were the best, way ahead of the rest (of the other bowlers in the side)

So it's swings and roundabouts, McGrath may have been aided by Warne, and others like Gillespie and Lee, while he had to compete with them for the wickets. Murali didn't have much at the other end, although Vaas isn't to be scoffed at so to say he had no support I'd say is strictly not true, he'd bowl and bowl and bowl (we'll use that word for this thread) without anyone else being in the same class.

And Murali had two distinct advantages aside, and I don't mean action as one of them, the first being that he took 493 of his 800 wickets in Sri Lanka and he took 176 wickets against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. So controversial action aside his wicket tally is heavily assisted by playing rubbish sides and/or on home wickets which you will not persuade me didn't help him at all - like any home side would have such a weapon and blunt it.

Hadlee was a phenomenon, as was Marshall. I think it would be harsh to knock Marshall as having assistance because he was a phenomenal bowler and had to fight other bowlers to get wickets. His record was tremendous, unfortunately he didn't live up to his batting potential and also died over a decade ago at the age of 41

Maybe the better way to debate this is to get the best bowler from each country and then whittle that list of 10 down to a top three and "best bowler ever". You'd have two undoubted/little disputed winners for Zimbabwe (Streak) and Sri Lanka (Murali) so there's a start. I'm guessing Hadlee would almost certainly join them for New Zealand

 

[sami ullah khan]

There would a lot more hard work to pick the best bowler for Australia, Pakistan and West indies.
South Africa: Donald beats everyone else by a country mile. Fast and ferocious. One of a kind strike force.
India: Kapil Dev
Sri Lanka: Murali
New Zealand: Hadlee
Zimbabwe: Streak
West Indies: Malcolm Marshall but I am not sure as I did not see any of the greats except walsh and Ambrose bowl.
Australia.: Mcgrath. I have not seen Denis lilie bowl and I like fast bowlers more than spinners.
Pakistan: Wasim Akram. Although it could be any of Waqar, Wasim and Imran Khan.
Bangladesh: Mohammad Rafique the left arm spinner.
England: The best I have seen is Darren Gough. I have not seen Bob Willis so my opinion is not worth a lot here.

 

[Owzat]

England you could have a plethora of names including the likes of Botham (in his pomp), Willis, Laker, Trueman, Underwood and Barnes

Gough would be a recent cult hero, not sure he was in the same league as most of those I've named above off the top of my head. If all you've seen is Gough and those of his era and since then you've missed the best of British. Botham was the last of the greats, Gough was good but not top class and I doubt he'd get many votes if it went to that - although with the recency effect you often find a voting pattern can lean towards more recent/familiar players/things etc

EDIT : it's no coincidence that few England players get past 200 Test wickets despite the greater volume of Tests played.

Test wickets for England

383 Botham (102 Tests)
325 Willis (90 Tests)
307 Trueman (67 Tests)
297 Underwood (86 Tests)
252 Statham (70 Tests)
229 Gough (58 Tests)
193 Laker (46 Tests)
189 Barnes (27 Tests)

Take into account Botham was an all-rounder and played a fair few of his latter Tests as a diminished bowler. Gough may look on paper up there, but he'd have struggled to take wickets against a West Indies side with Greenidge, Haynes, Richardson, Richards, Logie and Dujon in it! His average was in the late 20s not low 20s, not disimilar to that of Botham granted, but with less batting responsibility and as mentioned Botham became much less of a force towards the end of his career. From 1987 to 1992 he took just 17 wickets in 14 Tests @ 57.47 which also makes his wickets per Test rate much smaller.

That Hoggard, Gough, Caddick and Harmison are all in the top 10 England wicket takers speaks volumes about quality of opposition and quantity of matches. That the top of the Test runs table are recent/current also says it all, records of the "most" variety will tumble - especially with Bangladesh and a weak West Indies about

 

[sami ullah khan]

^I just checked it up Cricinfo. Botham and Gough have similar averages (over 28) but Gough has a strike rate of 51 compared to botham's 60. Willis has the better average of 25. Fred Trueman was brilliant with an average of 21 and Strike rate of 49. So based on stats of the above four Fred Trueman seems to be the best.

 

[lethalhughes]

^I just checked it up Cricinfo. Botham and Gough have similar averages (over 28) but Gough has a strike rate of 51 compared to botham's 60. Willis has the better average of 25. Fred Trueman was brilliant with an average of 21 and Strike rate of 49. So based on stats of the above four Fred Trueman seems to be the best.

Yes i've always heard that Trueman was the best English bowler.For the best Aussie bowler it would be quite difficult to choose between McGrath and Warne.I personally would choose McGrath cause he dominated in all conditions but tomorrow i may very well choose Warne.I think for Blangadesh Shakib al Hasan is already better than what Rafique ever was.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

Sri Lanka - Murali
Bangladesh - Shakib
Zimbabwe - Heath Streak
New Zealand - Richard Hadlee

I would have thought one of Sydney Barnes, Alec Bedser, Fred Trueman or Jim Laker would have won for England.

India's is tight...Bedi, Kumble, Dev. One of those three I would guess.

Pakistan's is between Imran, Waqar, Wasim

Australia has McGrath, Warne, Lillee

West Indies has Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Holding...

And South Africa has Donald and Pollock, off the top of my head

 

[Cricketman]

Chandrasekhar and Prasanna were better than Bedi. You can't put Bedi in the same league as Kapil Dev and Kumble at all.

 

[sifter132]

I'd go very similar to you Zorax:
Aus - McGrath, then Warne and Lillee
Eng - Barnes, although hard to justify I suppose. Trueman for people actually on film, with Bob Willis not to far behind
Ind - Dev, then Kumble
NZ - Hadlee by a mile
Pak - Imran for me, then Wasim and Waqar
SA - Donald, marginally ahead of Pollock
SL - Murali
WI - Marshall, then Ambrose

Bang - Shakib
Zim - Streak

 

[AkshayS]

Agree with most of yours leaving these two

Ind - Kumble for me, Dev and Srinath next followed by Zaheer
Pak-Wasim ahead of Imran

 

[Varun]

next followed by Zaheer

We have depended on Zaheer very very much (due to absence of a decent pace bowler). But still he cannot be counted as in top 5 best bowlers, I would put Bhajji ahead of him.

 

[Owzat]

^I just checked it up Cricinfo. Botham and Gough have similar averages (over 28) but Gough has a strike rate of 51 compared to botham's 60. Willis has the better average of 25. Fred Trueman was brilliant with an average of 21 and Strike rate of 49. So based on stats of the above four Fred Trueman seems to be the best.

And how good were the say West Indies that Botham played compared to the West Indies that Gouch faced in 1995 and after.....................?

Gough vs West Indies : 31 wkts @ 25.32 (SR 47.19)
Botham vs West Indies : 61 wkts @ 35.18 (SR 59.16)

Of course there will be other ups and downs, one performing better against one team and not so well against another. Botham also had to bat for a lot longer and had the burden of captaincy, and as mentioned his average dipped in his last dozen or so Tests