England in Australia

[Simbazz]

Flintoff is so under scrutiny that everybody notes what scores he gets, unlike Collingwood or even Ian Bell of late.....

I believe Flintoff is a batsmen who bowls because he has proved that his batting ability is greater than his bowling, which are both world class!

 

[Sureshot]

I think he's just an all rounder in general, both his disciplines ar very good, I'd say his bowling is slightly better actually.

 

[puddleduck]

I'm with Sureshot, I would say his bowling is his better suit. If he didn't have to worry about his batting I think he would get into the team through his bowling alone. Averaging around 25 with the ball in the last 3 years is an excellent acheivement for any bowler, especially since they hunt as a pack so no one bowler ever dominates. He would probably be a lot closer to 90mph the whole time instead of 85mph+. Batting wise, whilst he is a useful batsman, I don't think he would do much better batting at say 4 as a specialist batsman, and if anything would average lower than he does coming in at 6. Speculation obviously, but techniquely his batting doesn't look as solid as his bowling looks dangerous.

 

[evertonfan]

I believe Flintoff is a batsmen who bowls because he has proved that his batting ability is greater than his bowling, which are both world class!

A batsman who bowls? Interesting. I actually think that Flintoff's batting isn't good enough to warrant a place on batting alone. He could easily get into our side on bowling and as an all-rounder, but there are better batsmen in England than Flintoff.

 

[MUFC1987]

I can't believe people are saying that we should consider dropping Trescothick. He's one of the top three, if not the best, batsman in the squad, and people think he should be dropped? Thank God Fletcher is in charge and not some of you lot.

Monty getting abused by the crowd is pathetic as well.

Flintoff came on the scene as a batting all rounder, but his bowling his improved as he's put more into over the last few years after the injuries of his youth cleared up. He's not a top 5 batsman, but then I don't think he's quite good enough to open the bowling either.

 

[puddleduck]

I can't believe people are saying that we should consider dropping Trescothick. He's one of the top three, if not the best, batsman in the squad, and people think he should be dropped?

(On Freddie) -He's not a top 5 batsman, but then I don't think he's quite good enough to open the bowling either.

Firstly I don't think I or anyone said drop Tresco, I merely asked the question of how long must his poor form continue before we would consider dropping him? I actually said he must start the series. There must also however come a point where if his form didn't improve the idea of dropping him must appear, noone is undroppable forever.

Secondly, funny you should say that, as Freddie has at times opened the bowling and does bowl first change with the new ball. Since he is often our go-to man in the last few years he must surely be good enough to be considered an opening bowler?

 

[MUFC1987]

Firstly I don't think I or anyone said drop Tresco, I merely asked the question of how long must his poor form continue before we would consider dropping him? I actually said he must start the series. There must also however come a point where if his form didn't improve the idea of dropping him must appear, noone is undroppable forever.

He's not going to be in poor form forever though. If he averages 20 in the first four tests, I'd rather pick him in the 5th than risk Bell or Collingwood at Number 3. With Vaughan around, maybe Strauss, Cook or Tresco could be dropped, but without him? No chance, we're not good enough to drop our openers, who are more than good enough.

Secondly, funny you should say that, as Freddie has at times opened the bowling and does bowl first change with the new ball. Since he is often our go-to man in the last few years he must surely be good enough to be considered an opening bowler?

I think it takes something away from the team if he opens. He doesn't need the new ball to be successful, whereas the likes of Hoggard, Anderson and Harmison can be lethal with the new ball and need that help. I'd stick Flintoff as either 3rd or 4th bowler, he takes wickets when we need them. We don't need him to have bowled 8 overs or so with Langer and Hayden starting to get going, whereas if they're 50-0 with Flintoff still to be brought on, there's a lot more confidence. Perhaps it's a personal thing, but he doesn't need the new ball to improve his game.

 

[puddleduck]

So surely your statement saying "he's not good enough to open the bowling" is completely wrong then Do you mean the other bowlers aren't good enough to not open the bowling? If he doesn't need the new ball, then are you saying he is a better bowler than them? Sorry I'm confused!

Regarding Tresco, I would hope not as well, obviously I want him to refind his form, and come soaring back into the runs. I was merely asking how long do you give him if he doesn't? What if he was never quite right in the head again? How many tests, or series would you give him to get it right if he wasn't finding that form?

Edit - I do agree that were Vaughan available, then the time you would give him may well be less than with him not available.

 

[Sureshot]

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/ausveng/content/current/story/267740.html

As MUFC has said, not surprising given Australias racist issues, disgusting behaviour noentheless.

 

[evertonfan]

"Stupid Indian who can't speak English" ?

Maybe those idiotic Australian fans should hear how he actually talks. There isn't even a hint of Indian in there; Pure Luton-ish if you ask me.

 

[puddleduck]

Unfortunately it's going to happen Sureshot, and it's up to the players to not let it get to them. End of the day it's not even like what they're saying is clever or anywhere near true, it's just mindless abuse and hopefully some of the culprits are dealt with. The problems are far milder than in say Italian football, or how things were in English football a decade ago, but due to constantly trying to erradicate it we have improved and come a long way in England. Hopefully the Australian grounds will take the same approach and within a few years the problem will be even less widespread.

Edit - as a side note, I think KPs the last person they want to abuse. He was immense in South Africa under far more pressure from the stands, and yet again here he comes back with runs when the crowd tries to make him centre of attention so to speak.

 

[MUFC1987]

So surely your statement saying "he's not good enough to open the bowling" is completely wrong then Do you mean the other bowlers aren't good enough to not open the bowling? If he doesn't need the new ball, then are you saying he is a better bowler than them? Sorry I'm confused!

What I mean is, he's not good enough to get the best out of the new ball. Flintoff is more of a hard worker, whereas a McGrath, Ntini, or even Harmison are good enough to take teams apart with the new ball, whereas Flintoff isn't. It sounds confusing because I'm also saying that he shouldn't take the new ball for England, as he doesn't do as much with it as other players, so it's pointless.

 

[puddleduck]

I wouldn't include Harmison in there as sometimes he doesn't actually seem to want the new ball, but when you put it like that I see what you were trying to say. Certainly someone like Hoggy or Jimmy will always get more swing than Freddie will, but I do disagree with your statement in that I think you could give him the new ball for most teams in world cricket and you don't lose much. You still get a top class bowler who can also bowl good spells without it (far more useful). So I would stick by my statement that he is a better bowler than batsman in that he wouldn't be a top 5 batsman in any team bar the weaker nations, yet would get into most teams as a bowler alone.

 

[woodywiss sa sa]

At this point with Harmison being so out of form I just plain wouldn't play him. He won't get anything out of Australian Pitches and he'll be carted because he can't bowl straight at the moment. Anderson and Hoggard to have the new ball, both can swing it and Anderson has pace, usually 85+.

We (England) Simply aren't going to win this year. The Australians with Crush us imo. But we'll have to wait and see.

And Geraint Jones as Keeper? For shame..

 

[aussie1st]

Looks like KP will again be a problem for us this Ashes series
I wouldn't drop Harmisson just yet, at least give him one game to prove himself, if you don't give him that you will be killing yourself with curiosity wondering how we would have gone with Harmisson playing.