ICC News: Restructuring the ICC, BCCI Influence & more

See I don't see the time frame as a problem. I think results 4 years ago should be worth less than 1 year ago, or is your complaint that the rankings need MORE of past history? ie. 6 or 8 years worth.



My problem is that I think the weightings aren't right: Most of the teams are within 40 points of each other eg. NZ touring India is apparently close enough to not be discounted - India receives full credit for wins despite playing a team 6 spots below them at home. Needs to be a home and away discount as well IMHO.


Are there any alternatives out there? Balancing the FTP and having an even schedule is a great idea - but will NEVER, EVER, EVER happen in this current political climate. Even a Test Championship's not happening soon...So getting a better rankings system would be something of note. Have Duckworth/Lewis ever done anything? There's HEAPS of stat boffins out there who must have had a crack at a rankings system. I'd be interested to see some alternatives.

Weighting equally as dumb as the the 4 year thing.

To rank the best team in the world, as it always was is a simple process of each team playing each other home/away. Then the team that conquers the home/away contests the best became # 1.

It shouldn't matter how long (although obviously not too long) it takes for each team to complete these home/away tasks. So to put up any arbitrary cut off point or judge recent results more highly in a touring cycle, is utter foolishness.

The rankings don't even consider change of dynasty in teams due to change of personnel, player retirements or player development properly.

That major faux pas is why AUS after their era clearly ended after the 2006/07 Ashes - didn't loose the # 1 tag until 2009. How ENG & IND incorrectly became # 1 in recent years & how AUS if they had beaten S Africa in the perth test of the 2012 series, could have become # 1 again.

I know the political ignorance of world cricket always comes in the way of any sane logic in world cricket, but if a useless little fan like me can sit down for 15 minutes & create a very sane FTP using real world scenarios of each teams home season - why can't those clowns at the ICC do that same? It's simply inexcusable. - http://www.planetcricket.org/forums/2673431-post259.html

As i said before, from 1948-2002, before ranking system became official, the cricket world understood the aforementioned dynamics to crown the best test team & we had many series called "unofficial # 1 etc etc" - where this occurred.

Was anything ever wrong with how things were done for those 54 years? No it wasn't. The cricket world just felt like copying other sports & involved a ranking system in cricket - but all versions have been a joke.

The only way to clear the cobwebs that will always turn up is to have a a test championship. Whether it is long version of crowing a champions every 4 years when all teams play home/away or that shorter version, that Martin Crowe suggested.

Unless we have a dominant # 1 team like WI 76-91 or AUS 95-2007 - ranking system will always do a poor job of adequately addressing the # 1, especially when you have a few evenly contested teams.

Its insulting to cricket history, to have Dave Richardson giving teams this mace in a big ceremony to say they are # 1, based on this fraudulent system.
 
It shouldn't matter how long (although obviously not too long) it takes for each team to complete these home/away tasks. So to put up any arbitrary cut off point or judge recent results more highly in a touring cycle, is utter foolishness.

See I think it should, and a good rankings system might find a way to punish teams for not playing enough Test series eg. what if the Test ranking system simply tallied the number of series wins against each team, home and away, for the last 5 years. There would be 18 points up for grabs (vs the 9 teams, home and away), and if you hadn't toured Bangladesh in the last 5 years, you were giving up your chance at a point.

Something like this: Test Cricket League | The common-sense Test cricket rankings but with Home and Away series included, and very old series (5-6 years or older) dropped off to make teams tour again and not rest on old points gained.

It's odd that you argue the rankings don't take into account dynasty change and recent trends, but then you have no problem including old results in there.

The rankings don't even consider change of dynasty in teams due to change of personnel, player retirements or player development properly.

That major faux pas is why AUS after their era clearly ended after the 2006/07 Ashes - didn't loose the # 1 tag until 2009. How ENG & IND incorrectly became # 1 in recent years & how AUS if they had beaten S Africa in the perth test of the 2012 series, could have become # 1 again.

Firstly, how could the rankings know that a dynasty has ended? It's a machine. It is not the job of the rankings to identify dynasties beginning or ending. You'd need to write a new 'dynasty' rank identifier algorithim. You're arguing a different thing, about who has been UNDISPUTED #1 team in world cricket. That doesn't happen so often, and a computer program is going to find it hard to identify that exact moment. That's where your logical cricket fans can come in a say, look WI is no longer undisputed world champs after they lost at home to Aus in 1995. You can ENHANCE the rankings/facts with good discussions and observations. Utimately I think the rankings provide good discussion fodder.

Secondly, why should Australia have dropped from #1 ? They clearly weren't as good as golden era Australia, but England barely beat Aus in 2009, SA lost to Aus at home in 2009, India couldn't beat Aus in Aus on the 2007/08 tour. No convincing argument was made that any of those teams were clearly better than new-gen Australia, and surely the good work Australia had done over the previous 5 years should have kept them up the top until someone was obviously better. They were a weaker #1 , but until someone overtakes you, you are still #1 . They can't be #1 .5 :p
 
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See I think it should, and a good rankings system might find a way to punish teams for not playing enough Test series eg. what if the Test ranking system simply tallied the number of series wins against each team, home and away, for the last 5 years. There would be 18 points up for grabs (vs the 9 teams, home and away), and if you hadn't toured Bangladesh in the last 5 years, you were giving up your chance at a point.

Something like this: Test Cricket League | The common-sense Test cricket rankings but with Home and Away series included, and very old series (5-6 years or older) dropped off to make teams tour again and not rest on old points gained.

It's odd that you argue the rankings don't take into account dynasty change and recent trends, but then you have no problem including old results in there.

Ha i like that common sense ranking link. But yea if we are going to have a cut off point it should at the end of the cycle when each teams plays each other home/away - which should be no longer than 4 years. Then you start the process/points tabulations from scratch.


Firstly, how could the rankings know that a dynasty has ended? It's a machine. It is not the job of the rankings to identify dynasties beginning or ending. You'd need to write a new 'dynasty' rank identifier algorithim. You're arguing a different thing, about who has been UNDISPUTED #1 team in world cricket. That doesn't happen so often, and a computer program is going to find it hard to identify that exact moment. That's where your logical cricket fans can come in a say, look WI is no longer undisputed world champs after they lost at home to Aus in 1995. You can ENHANCE the rankings/facts with good discussions and observations. Utimately I think the rankings provide good discussion fodder.

Secondly, why should Australia have dropped from #1 ? They clearly weren't as good as golden era Australia, but England barely beat Aus in 2009, SA lost to Aus at home in 2009, India couldn't beat Aus in Aus on the 2007/08 tour. No convincing argument was made that any of those teams were clearly better than new-gen Australia, and surely the good work Australia had done over the previous 5 years should have kept them up the top until someone was obviously better. They were a weaker #1 , but until someone overtakes you, you are still #1 . They can't be #1 .5 :p

That "good discussion" you mentioned used to happen from 1948-2002 before ranking system became official . I showed you this before & you haven't particularly answered why that process needed to be changed.

Those dynasty etc factors are very important to judging teams & i don't expect any ranking system to ever have any formal to properly work that out - thus it will always cause confusion.

For example lets look at how ENG got to # 1 incorrectly:


quote said:
English cricket after the Moores/Pietersen saga between West Indies 2009 - Pakistan 2010 where the embryonic stages of the Strauss/Flower partnership and development. No one in their right mind was ranking or speaking of England as anything close to best team in the world then and rightly so because they had alot players who did not convince the world they good all-round players.

The 2010/11 Ashes was the potential starting point of this teams greatness.

Players for ENG like Anderson, Tremlett, Cook, Bell, Bresnan came of age in Ashes 2010/11. The faulty ICC ranking system which judges form of the a short two year period, does not recongize this and its has incorrectly made a correlation with ENG of between of WI 09 - PAK 2010 to ENG between AUS 2010/11 - IND 2011. Those are two completely different ENG teams that one cannot compare.

This new ENG team had not won enough series to reach that accolade when they beat india 4-0 last year , since they were only 8 months into their potential dynasty. ENG would never have viewed that IND 2011 series as one where they could become # 1, if the ICC didn't tell them they could.

So when they were whitewashed Pakistan 2012, people began to question their # 1 ranking, when in fact they never were never # 1.

Also lets look at how AUS were on the verge of becoming # 1 again according to the rankings if they had beaten S Africa in the Perth test in 2012:

quote said:
Now we both are AUS fans so i don't need to explain to you the crap cricket the team has been playing since 2009 in tests. How is it then that a S Africa team who have only lost 1 series 2006 entered that Perth test vs AUS on the verge of being dethroned by that 2012 AUS team?

If that had happened, Dave Richardson would have been presenting Michael Clarke with a mace at the end of that series & then AUS would have gone to India lost 4-0 & the Ashes 3-0 as the so called "# 1 team". Your an intelligent bloke & I'm sure you can see why this would have been ridiculous.

So we must thank god S Africa brought their A game to that Perth test.

Secondly I am not talking about "undisputed" # 1 teams like WI 76-95 or AUS 95-2007, people always misinterpret what is meant by this

We all know those WI & AUS teams were the two most dominant # 1 teams in test history, they wiped the floor with everyone home & away. But they have been other teams in test history who were # 1 - who were less dominant:

ENG 1951-1958 - did not loose a test series for 7 years. But they drew a few series too & were not super dominant. They just simply won more home/away series than their opponents & it was obviously they were the best.

S Africa from 2006 to 2013 (to date) - have only lost 1 test series (vs AUS home 2009) since the end AUS dominant era of. They haven't been super dominant yet (although they could probably take it to another level in the coming years) - they have drawn a few series in India, not yet won in SRI (although this is mainly due to the poor FTP fixtures) & not yet beaten AUS @ home strangely.

Benaud's AUS from 58-63, Windies 64-69, Chappell's AUS from 72-76, Illingworth's England from 69-973 are other examples of less dominant # 1's. So let's get the distinction be clear.

With regards to AUS post 2006-07, its similar to Windies post 91 series in England. Nobody every says & correctly AUS glory days were from 95-2009 - so why should that human ranking system prolong their # 1 tag from 2 more years?


Historians end the windies dominant era at the of 91, although they did not loose a test series until 95 - the same with AUS with regards to that 2008/09 home loss to S Africa.

Between 91-94 & 2007-2009, those post dominant era teams went back into the pack during these periods & a jostling for the # 1 occurred between a few teams. Its only when AUS beat Windies in 95 or S Africa beat AUS in 2008 - that a # 1 of some form was legitimately formed again.

Even if the we get a perfect situation where teams plays each other in a structured manner, home/away for 4 years & get awarded points for series wins/draws - the ranking might still throw up a few anomalies. This is why cricket ranking system should not be treated as the total gospel truth about the state of world cricket - but rather as vague guide instead.

And for reasons already stated in this thread, this shows why the world test championship had to be implemented.
 
That "good discussion" you mentioned used to happen from 1948-2002 before ranking system became official . I showed you this before & you haven't particularly answered why that process needed to be changed.

Apologies :p I'm just a little confused as to how we change that process. I think good discussions and informative arguments have happened throughout history, before and after the rankings. The rankings are just another point of view to reference. The fact the ICC and a portion of fans take them as gospel is a bit unfortunate I guess, but if anything that makes those people EASIER to avoid :D

With regards to AUS post 2006-07, its similar to Windies post 91 series in England. Nobody every says & correctly AUS glory days were from 95-2009 - so why should that human ranking system prolong their # 1 tag from 2 more years?

Well because we couldn't know that anyone was better than Australia yet, even if they were weaker. I see your general point about the #1 tag, but I'd be interested to know where you think Australia should have been ranked from 2007 onwards (assuming you HAD to keep the rankings going :yes). Should SA have overtaken Aus as soon as Warne/McGrath retired? (And how to explain this to fans? ie. your team has just won 5-0, but we think your dynasty has ended - you are now #2 , congrats.) Was it the next year when Hayden and Gilchrist retired? Did SA take over #1 when they won in Aus in 2008/09? And did Aus then automatically take back that #1 2 months later when they won in SA?

You're almost talking about 'power rankings' which you see a lot in American journalism for their sports. They are supposed to reflect who is the best team going forward, not who has been the best team over the season or the past X years.
 
Not sure how this is blackmail. It is clear from the article that it is CSA and Lorgat who are keen to improve relations, and the BCCI are taking advantage of the situation. If CSA has the balls to stay firm on its stand, it should do so. I'm not saying the BCCI are saints, but I don't understand how they are to be blamed for CSA's lack of testicular fortitude.

As for Pakistan, my guess is that the only reason they're taking a stand against the proposal is because the BCCI cannot really guarantee a home series for Pakistan against India, since the BCCI isn't the highest authority when it comes to bilateral cricket with Pakistan. The Indian government controls that and BCCI cannot override government policy.
 
^^

And the BCCI will take advantage of their lack of testicular fortitude by promising them more series, for their support of the takeover. They nor any of the other weak financial boards cannot clearly guaranteed to their constituents that the BCCI/CA/ECB will live up their promises of touring, under the new proposed system.

This is where potentially CSA/BCB/WICB/SCB/NZC have left themselves open to blackmail by the big 3.
 
I agree that the weaker boards have left themselves open to this, and the Big Three have no obligation to really fulfill those promises because the other boards can't do anything about it anyway.

Still don't think it's blackmail. :)
 
I agree that the weaker boards have left themselves open to this, and the Big Three have no obligation to really fulfill those promises because the other boards can't do anything about it anyway.

Still don't think it's blackmail. :)

ICC revamp : CSA denies discussing Lorgat role with BCCI | Cricket News | Cricinfo ICC Site | ESPN Cricinfo

Ok so what word, would you chose to describe the scenario?

Regardless, CSA have died the reports, so their balls seemingly remain intact.


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Giles Clarke said:
BBC Sport - ICC revamp: ECB boss Giles Clarke says everyone will benefit

"If anyone thinks that international cricket was working, well they are mistaken," said ECB boss Giles Clarke.
?
"If the status quo was so successful, why were so many countries in a perilous financial state?"

Giles Clarke must be delusional & think people are stupid. Everyone knows the ICC has been dysfunctional and has been working has a governing body - but revamping it so that 3 boards should have all the power is ridiculous. Any ICC revamp should clearly be the ICC becoming the central power & all the boards adhering to this superior authority, despite each individual boards financial strength.
 
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N Srinivasan: 'The new ICC structure is more inclusive' | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

I must admit of all the interviews i've seen Sambit Bal trap this crook in, he actually sounds like he is making sense.

However is response to this question which is of particular interest of WI/PAK/NZ/SRI/BANG/SA supports was not too convincing:

QUOTE said:
Bal: We'll come back to the bilateral agreements. There is a concern that if there is no universal FTP, and agreements are made between individual boards, it will leave the weaker boards at the mercy of the stronger ones. You can simply choose to play who you want.

NS: The present FTP is not a guaranteed FTP.

Bal: But there's at least a thing in principle and concept.

NS: For your information, the present FTP is not signed. That is indicative, but it is not a legal document. It is not and it was never binding. Whereas, the FTP bilateral agreement will be stronger. India has sat down during the Dubai meeting and discussed with a number of countries the proposed FTP for going forward, which we are going to coincide with the right cycle.

Bal: So in principle you are committing to play all the countries?

NS: We are working out details. We have worked out with a number of countries. One or two are left and that also is being finalised.

Bal: A few boards have said that it has become a bargaining tool - an "either you are with us or against us" kind of situation.

NS: No, you are saying that. I am not saying it.

Bal: That's something some of the boards have told us. That they have been told, "We'll only sign bilateral FTPs with people if you agree to this proposal or you are exposing yourself to isolation."

I don't know who has said that but certainly not India.

Bal: So if two boards voted against this proposal, will they also be given tours?

NS: Our team of three or four officials from India sat in Dubai and have held discussions of all the possible FTPs with various countries there. Now, we have only so much time in a year to play. I also want to have a good domestic season and we want to have inbound tours. We want to have at least two inbound tours during our home season, because that is very important to BCCI. Our fans must see our cricket. So therefore, with all this in mind, we are working on a schedule. It is a question of whoever comes first, whoever comes and we are able to accommodate, fine. If we are filled up, then we have a difficulty but we are trying our best to see as many as we can accommodate.

Bal: Can I take two specific names - Pakistan and South Africa?

NS: We are open for them. About South Africa, somewhere some wrong information is floating around. We are due to sit with them and discuss the FTP. Somebody is coming here over the next two days and discussions are going to happen.
 

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