IceAgeComing
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"compared to FIFA"
ICC News: Restructuring the ICC, BCCI Influence & more
- Thread starter War
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"compared to FIFA"
War
Chairman of Selectors
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What do you mean by where is the corruption? And Ha @ "stereotype a part". So BCCI brings the plan the lame duck ICC that the want more out of the game because of their misguided position and viewpoint of entitlement, threaten to walk away from world cricket if they didn't get it and England & Australia join them in taking over the game from the governing body in sport - in a move that every notable cricket journalist worldwide and past ICC president's Eshan Mani & Malcolm Speed condemns & you ask me where is the corruption. Really? Ha
Also ICC only the other day has sort of gotten its act together somewhat with assisting associates - but that's just one part of puzzle of growing game globally that the ICC still has not coherently devised a policy. Associates in last world cup showed their best tournament performances but as this article highlights in a very in depth - ICC's decision to have less associates - already threatens some good work they did for once in the world game - Tim Wigmore: Why this year's Associate crop is the best ever | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo
That clearly shows all facets of the ICC are not singing from tune - so I don't know how you interpret this has ICC having a structure to help associates and is getting more structured.
Unlike FIFA you say? Man that little thing ICC did with associates recently is child's play to the "FIFA Goal project" that assist all developing football nations since Blatter was elected in 1998. Research that if you don't know about it already.
Once again going around in circles, do not mix up FIFA executive corruption that has given football a bad name with the administrative level of FIFA that have very good checks and balances which has enabled the sport to become global in the last 40 years. I am not or nobody here is ignoring the evils of FIFA, you just have to differentiate which part of FIFA you attacking as aforementioned, which on this forum for eg is done in this football section thread - FIFA/UEFA/CONMEBOL/CAF/CONCACAF/AFC news thread - Football Discussion on PlanetCricket Forums
Compared to anyone, ICC is not corrupt. Incompetant and Inconsistant, probably. Could do better - Yeah sure.
But does it make them corrupt?
War
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Not even that would have helped it, the champions league club concept could never work for cricket because unlike football which invented the Champs league idea - cricket does not have a great tradition with its clubs/states/provinces/county among the test playing nations playing one another on a international level. Then you had the crazy issue of how players in T20 being basic globetrotters - which saw people like the regular West Indians, Malinga, Hodge etc etc etc helping many different franchises worldwide qualify for the C-League - but come C-League the IPL or AUS/SA team would take them.
Its better of now with each nations having their own T20 league, make their money and that's it.
War
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Since the ICC never reformed itself into a proper policy making governing body after the Packer situation in the 1970s, the ICC as organization before Big 3 takeover whether it was in London before or Dubai now is lame duck. It only became a "imitation" of a governing body when all the heads of the various boards would meet to make policy decisions. But to quote Ian Chappell, they met as a cricket XI - but generally after such meeting instead of working together in a global interest they went back to their countries and just helped themselves.
So in that context, to measure ICC corruption you have to look at what the boards do. We all know the Asian blocked in stained with corruption, the amount of government intervention Interim Management Committee (IMC) that have occurred in Pakistan, Sri Lanka & Bangladesh over the years is ridiculous and that fact that known corrupt India politician S Pawar and N Srinivsam have such high roles in the BCCI/ICC tells you all you need to know.
West Indies board combination of corruption and incompetence is well known. Under former players association president Dinnath Ramnarine, they took WICB to court many times in the last 15 years and won over 90% of cases & the recent India tour pull out has remnants of potential sleaze. Zimbabwe have their issues that led to the Andy Flower era walking out.
AUS/ENG/NZ/SA have the cleanest board reps - although ECB under Giles Clarke are the deceptive lies to the public regarding the KP saga has their lowest public approval ever & S Africa get away with their reverse-racism government intervention in team selection mainly because the lame duck ICC never had the clout to do like FIFA and mandate a strong policy of no government intervention in sport.
Yeah ICC is now essentially a cartel. BUt a cartel is not an automatically corrupt body. Forming a cartel is not a corrupt practice in itself. You may say forming the cartel was unwise, or uncalled for or even stupid, but its not corrupt. Sure money was the central basis for this cartel being formed, so that the big three earn more money. However people run businesses and want to earn more money. Wanting to earn more money, and earning more money is not in itself corruption. In the big three takeover, no laws were broken, no money exchanged hands when it shouldn't have, and hence the ICC big three idea is not a form of corruption.
It would have been corruption is say Board X was not keen on the idea, and the BCCI or ECB or whoever, bribed them X amount of dollars to change their mind. That didn't happen. The Boards were happy to go along with the Big Three idea. Not initially, but eventually after discussions and that is fine.
Also I don't need to learn of the Goal Programme. I am in India, which is among the bottom rung national football sides of the world, and the "Goal Programme" has done little, if anything to improve the game here. If anything India has gone backwards regarding football. The ICC may not have a money or resources or even the demand for the sport they are administering, that FIFA does, but a general scan of the region will show you that ICC has been more effective in spreading the game. Atleast in the Indian subcontinent.
In the past decade or so Cricket has slowly taken over Football in the region. Examples are Bangladesh, where not long ago Football was the #1 sport, now cricket is way ahead in terms of Popularity. Nepal being another example, where Cricket now dominates what was formerly a Football first nation. Afghanistan has emerged as among the strongest of associate nations and 2 decades ago, they probably didn't even know what cricket was. Afghanistan is the best example for an emerging nation, Cricket dominates Football by miles. So its clear that whatever the ICC is doing has had better effect than the "Goal Programme" of Sepp Blatter, the most corrupt head of any sporting body in the world.
Also this discussion is going around in circles. You want to slate ICC for Corruption, when really all you are saying is that the ICC is not the most competent sports governing bodies of the world. For some reason you are very intent of equating what you think is incompetence for corruption.
Ironically you want ICC to get rid of this corruption and learn from FIFA, when FIFA is well known for actually being so corrupt that 7 of its officials have recently been jailed for corruption !!
Secondly you clearly miss the point that ICC and FIFA are not even the right examples or parallels. FIFA governs a sport where the demand far far exceeds the supply and is and easy sport to sell. ICC deals with a sport where they are still trying to create a global demand. FIFA can get away by doing a small bit to help the smaller nations, because frankly no one cares if the smaller football nations like India or Bandglaesh or SL actually improves or not. As long FIFA is seen to be helping them, through whatever little programmes its fine. Unltimately even if they are going backwards, so long FIFA has a programme for them its fine. No one is going to see effective it is, because no one cares about the lower ranked FIFA sides, and this is a fact. FIFA will show its wants improvement, and even pretend to care, but they dont. They form some programme to cover their arse on the topic and forget about it. Hey FIFA, why is Pakistan/India/Bangladesh not doing well ... well we have a programme in place, don't worry.
ICC on the other hand actually has to spoon feed the associates and pick them up by the bootstraps, and make them improve. The improvement the associates have made in the past 20 years, is actually extraordinary, and something the ICC should be praised for not slated.
To sum up-
Can ICC do better - yes.
Is ICC Incompetant - If you think so, fine. In any case there is always room to do better.
Is ICC Inconsistant - Yes
Is ICC involved in corruption - No.
Is FIFA involved in corruption - Yes, so bad that it stinks, and its officials are in jail.
Can ICC learn from FIFA how to spread the game better - Probably ... though ICC has done well with Associates in the past two decades.
Can ICC learn from FIFA how to be less corrupt - Are you kidding me ... FIFA is the most corrupt sports body there is.
Is ICC promoting/turning a blind eye to Human Rights Violation - No. (No known report of any such thing).
Is FIFA promoting/turning a blind eye to Human Rights Violations - Yes.
Yeah I grant you that individual boards have had corruption issues, and even players, what with match fixing and allegations of bookies being fed info.
Be if Warne or Mark Waugh in '95 of the Cronje/Gibbs/Azhar fixing issue of 2000 or more recently the spot fixing thing.
However the point we are discussing is that ICC itself has always done its best to weed out this corruption that exist at the lower levels of the game. Even FIFA has issues of refrees being bribed, match fixing etc. at lower levels of the game.
However the point is that ICC itself is not involved in corruption, and even its officials, may have been questionable when holding other offices, but in their capacity as ICC officials have not been involved in corruption.. FIFA on the other hand has officials, who in their capacity as FIFA officals have been guilty of corruption, and still continue to hold the post.
_Sam_
Panel of Selectors
Think you missed the point, Untouchables was saying he hoped you were the only one on the forum that believed what you said, whilst completely removing the comparison context part of your statement.
he was saying the same thing i guess to tell 006 to read it, its best for you to unignore 006 or not bother half stuff that you get without seeing his.
Sry, I had the other fella on ignore, and lost all context when I replied to the post earlier.
War
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This where cricket journalism is lacking compared to football although cricinfo did a great job of going in great detail when the saga broke loose of Big Three takeover was able to seriously dig deep and find out why in god's name nations succumbed to big three takeover. We don't really know what happened in those meetings after a few countries huffed their disapproval, then said they voted for Big three. Bribes could very well and have passed for support in some capacity & without comprising their identity i know a few big cricket journalist who personally suspect that based on credible info they got - but don't have the meas to dig further.
Generally no litany of laws were revealed to be broken, but one potent one regarding Srinivasam & his current court case is whether his obvious conflict of interest of being BCCI head/ICC representative & CSK Owner did break any laws.
Cricket doesn't have anybody like Andrew Jennings whose investigations on their activity saw the mighty FIFA actually ban him from all their press conferences worldwide.
Sports governing bodies aren't fortune 500 companies or banks - their only aim for getting more money is to run the game more effectively and grow the sport globally. If money is seeked via the spurious means the big three did, its compromises the integrity of the game & that is corruption. It may not be corruption on the same level as FIFA world cup 2018 & 2022 buying votes accusations and scandals which also put the game/world cup integrity into disrepute - but it follows a similar trend.
Nonsense. Firstly its not FIFA job to take on the full responsibility of growing a sport in country, that is what your national federation. The goal-project is their to facilitate the work of the federation. Its illogical in highest extreme to use few examples of India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan, Nepal have not grown exponentially in football, when majority of smaller nations of the 209 fifa membbers have become competitive enough where world cup qualifiers in all confederations - that big nations have very few games anywhere to consider easy qualifiers.
I'm willing to bet also that all those countries were possibly among the deluded Asian block that even voted Blatter back in yesterday and many times over the last 5 elections too, despite all of that.
India has always been a cricket mad country, so it will take more than a goal project from FIFA to grow the sport their. The public has gravitate to the sport in a similar way to cricket for your federation to be able to adequately tap in. Or the nation needs some moment like USA had in the 1990s, which helped football grow to the point there where it is now.
This is very similar situation for example to English & South Africa cricket authorities trying to get more black poeple into cricket when for various current, historically and mentality reasons they just prefer football
Would admit that i don't know much about Nepal & Afghanistan past with football - so don't want to address that too much.
Right and again which one of those 7 officials that got locked up had anything do with organizing administrative lawyers of FIFA for world football over the last 40 years such as:
- international calendar in co-ordination with clubs
- FIFA stance on government intervention in sport
- Establishment of various lawers youth world cups for men and women
- FIFA rules about player switching nationalities
- FIFA rules regarding changing of off-side rule
- goal-line technology
- world cup qualifying draw
- FIFA rules of release of players from clubs for internationals
- international club transfers regulations and restrictions
?????
Of course FIFA is a easier sport to sell, but you cannot under-rate the good administrative work FIFA has done to grow the game. When England had central control of the game up until the 70s - it was very insular just as how cricket is today.
Ha its very humorous how casual you say "there is always room to do better" - good lord. To refer the England point again, both cricket and football were basically in the same position at the end of the 1970s as English controlled sports. When Stanley Reous (spell check) lost election to Joae Havelange football has despite the executive level corruption that you are struggling to differentiate from the administrative side of FIFA - the game has grow more in the last 40 years than under the previous almost 100 years when under English rule.
Cricket saga with Packer happened the same time when FIFA had that election. Packer exposed the English central rule with Australia a able side-kick and it never learned from that and the nations never came together to form a proper global body like FIFA a grow the game. As India after 1983 world cup win slowly grew into the financial powerhouse, that power once again exposed ICC weakness like Packer - which has lead to all the madness in cricket now.
The ICC has had ALMOST 40 YEARS!!! to get better make room for improvement sir and the global custodians of the sport have failed miserably.
England thanks to premier league power is probably the richest financial FA in football and is India's equivalent - while UEFA is most powerful confederation. They can't manipulate FIFA which is good thing from governance standpoint.
I've never questioned whether FIFA is corrupt is the most corrupt sport in the world in any sentence of any post.
No ICC has done a half good job in last 5 years of helping associates - read this again Tim Wigmore: Why this year's Associate crop is the best ever | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo before you continue to regurgitate the the incorrect statement that they have done well with associates in the past two decades.
Kenya and Namibia has fell off, their lack of clear rules unlike FIFA regarding players switching nationality has allowed England to get a few Irish players, Banglesh getting test status was a mistake and Zimbawe should not have regained test status.
Outside of the building of stadiums in QATAR currently where workers is shockingly dying, are you suggesting that FIFA has a history of turning a blind to human rights violations in whatever context?
_Sam_
Panel of Selectors
Just want to check, I thought that the updated football eligibility rules were very similar to the ICC ones bar the allowance to change country if qualified instantly under the age of 21 (I think it was that)?
Its a long post and I will try and reply to as much as I can. With regard to this part, what you are saying is there could have been money exchanging hands, we just don't know. However, surely you will agree that this is just wild speculation. We can't label the ICC corrupt merely because there could have been corruption.
That almost borders on conspiracy theory. By this logic, everything and everyone is corrupt, because they could have taken bribes and we just don't know.
Well don't you see the difference that highlighted part makes, about the roles of ICC and FIFA. FIFA you rightly said is not reponsible for development of sport in the weaker nations and plays a passive role. ICC on the other hand is actively involved in the development of game in the Associate nations and not everything is left to the Boards. ICC provides the money, the infrastructure, and other facilities.
ICC plays a much more active role than FIFA does.
No thats just the thing, forget India, where football will never realistically overtake Cricket. Although India last year launched the ISL, that involved with a bunch of have been footballers, and that may improve things, but its still a long way to go.
However in countries like B'desh, Nepal, Afghanistan, Football was the sport, and now cricket has overtaken the in regard to popularity. So ICC is doing something right.
I didn't fully understand this, do elaborate.
Of course FIFA is a easier sport to sell, but you cannot under-rate the good administrative work FIFA has done to grow the game. When England had central control of the game up until the 70s - it was very insular just as how cricket is today.
Okay again, you are talking of incompetence here and I have never said that ICC was the greatest body going around. Feel free to call them incompetent if you want. Its the word corruption that I have been disputing, all along. I do still maintatin, that for all the stick you are giving the ICC, the ICC has done some good work on the grass roots level too.
Lastly UEFA do dominate FIFA with regard to some aspects, like how many team they send to the WC, and so on, though yes nowhere near the same level as BCCI dominates ICC. However the point is that FIFA has billions of its own money stored away in banks, but the ICC still depends on the boards to generate the money the sport needs.
As in any field, those who generate the money will want a greater involvement than those who don't generate the money.
What is happening in Qatar is bad enough. If you are looking for FIFA's support or deliberately overlooking these violations, then look no further than FIFA Secretary General Jérôme Valcke’s comment that “less democracy is sometimes better for organizing a World Cup”. Of particular concern to workers rights for the 2018 World Cup, he added that he anticipates organization to go more smoothly in Russia, where there is a “strong head of state.”
However if you want more reports then here are a few -
Human rights abuses related to the 2014 FIFA World Cup and 2016 Olympic Games in Brazil | Business & Human Rights Resource Centre
The government had promised that any urban construction projects involving, for instance, resettlement of communities and improvements in urban mobility (e.g. Bus Rapid Transit projects), would be conducted with citizen participation in the decision making process and transparency. It was claimed that the projects would benefit the most marginalised groups; however, the reality has been somewhat different. In recent months and years, several reports have been published and submitted to local and international authorities containing allegations of human rights abuses such as forced displacements and evictions, forced labour, discrimination, lack of consultation of affected communities, child labour, and violent repression of protesters.
Russia plans to use prison labor for 2018 World Cup - Soccer - SI.com
Russian authorities want to use prison labor to drive down the costs of holding the 2018 World Cup. Russian prison labor schemes have faced allegations that prisoners are routinely underpaid or forced to work long hours. In 2013, the then-imprisoned Pussy Riot band member Nadezhda Tolokonnikova went on hunger strike in protest at working conditions in her prison camp.
FIFA : Make the World Cup a Fair Game for Workers
This is report on the general violations taking place in both Russia and Qatar.
Workers employed on construction projects to prepare for the 2018 World Cup in Russia and the 2022 World Cup in Qatar, most of whom are migrant workers, face numerous human rights violations, according to FIDH. In a letter sent today to the President of FIFA, Mr. Joseph Sepp Blatter, FIDH recalled the sports organisation’s responsibility to investigate and remedy reports that workers are being subject to unfair payment practices, excessive work hours, racist violence, and work conditions that can amount to forced labour.
FIFA should also care about workers’ rights in Russia: workers constructing the infrastructure for the 2018 World Cup, most of whom are migrants from Central Asia and the Caucasus, are subject to multiple labour abuses. In particular, workers often face excessive working hours and unfair payment practices, such as partial or non-payment of wages or excessive delays in payment. Some employers also retain workers’ identity documents or don’t provide employment contracts. Migrant workers in Russia are particularly vulnerable, as they often face systemic discrimination, xenophobic violence, and even “debt bondage,” where they are forced to work to repay the costs of their travel. Migrant workers are also often denied their right to freedom of association.
S
Satan666
Guest
Who is the user 006? Assuming you mean 666.....
He can keep me on the ignore list and just click on 'show ignored content' when our posts interact, provided of course I am the only user on his ignore list.
IceAgeComing
Retired Administrator
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The advantage of being a mod is that no one can ignore you, so everyone has to read whatever rubbish you say 
They are - compared to many other sports, Cricket has strict eligibility rules with the exception of being able to switch countries after receiving an international cap - the latter is the big issue, and that's caused by the fact that most nations can't play Test Match Cricket so there is a big incentive to switch allegiances...
e: also @Untouchables666 please respond to my earlier remarks
They are - compared to many other sports, Cricket has strict eligibility rules with the exception of being able to switch countries after receiving an international cap - the latter is the big issue, and that's caused by the fact that most nations can't play Test Match Cricket so there is a big incentive to switch allegiances...
e: also @Untouchables666 please respond to my earlier remarks
