Pakistan to refuse to play WC games in India

[sohum]

Please show me where I am asking people to come to Pakistan. For perhaps the thousanth time, I am not asking people to come to Pakistan, nor am I supporting cricket in Pakistan till 2012-2013. Ideally, I would like international cricket to be played in Pakistan, but it should not happen till atleast 2012-2013.

Please show me where I am arguing that people shouldn't come to Pakistan? All I did was make a statement that the countries perceive India to be safer than Pakistan, which is why they obviously have fewer qualms about touring India than Pakistan, which you obviously misread so that you could argue about something I don't care about. The irony of your "ability to read" claims are probably lost on you.

The reprecussions of Mumbai had England been staying in that hotel (if the itinerary was made as such) would have been far worse for India than they currently are for Pakistan.

If we are in the mode of making up scenarios that haven't happened, I could very easily say if the Sri Lankan team bus had been blown up then the repercussions would have been far more severe. However, I don't like to base my argument on conditionals, so I won't stoop to that level.

Also, I think it is very possible that the English team could have been in the hotel at that time, but the point you seem to be missing is that if the players were in the hotel at the time, there would be more security around than when there were just civilians in the hotel. To put it to you more easily, if, for example, the Indian President was staying in the Taj that day, there would have been way more security personnel around. Since Western teams have qualms touring the subcontinent these days, the security provided to them would be more than everyday situations.

This is not "conditional", this is a fact. With the cricket-crazy population of India, touring and Indian cricketers are given a high-level of security to protect against the idiotic fan.

Sohum, can you please put on your glasses? Perhaps you need English lessons.

Now, getting that issue out of the way since some people have reading disabilities...

I'd appreciate it if you, in the future, don't attempt to rile me up by making snide personal remarks.

sohum added 2 Minutes and 7 Seconds later...

Yes but politics and sport shouldn't mix, not when the two have nothing to do with each other. The Pakistani cricket team pose no security risk to India, and disallowing them entry because of politics between the two countries is unjust.

It may be unjust and unfair, but that's the way it is. Let's not pretend we live in some Utopian society that says otherwise. India-Pakistan government policy have always had an effect on tours. If it hadn't been for the thawing of India-Pakistan relations near the beginning of this decade, we still wouldn't even be have playing series'.

 

[SciD]

Wasim Akram was in Delhi yesterday. And he was not run over by road roller.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

I wouldn't trust eye-witness testimonies KC. They can be very unreliable. I studied all about them in psychology...

 

[Insomniac]

Please show me where I am arguing that people shouldn't come to Pakistan? All I did was make a statement that the countries perceive India to be safer than Pakistan, which is why they obviously have fewer qualms about touring India than Pakistan, which you obviously misread so that you could argue about something I don't care about. The irony of your "ability to read" claims are probably lost on you.

Really now?

I think the fact that most of the member nations have chosen not to tour Pakistan and don't have problems touring India speaks for itself

Countries touring Pakistan is a non-issue at this point. It's almost a pointless comparison to make, so I don't know why you felt the need to do that. Maybe you're one attempting to rile me up following the earlier issue in this thread.

Check the deleted posts, and tell me whether your post was no different from the ones that were deleted/infracted for. Based on what has previously happened in this thread, and your knowledge of it as a global moderator, I would say you're the one trying to rile me up.

If we are in the mode of making up scenarios that haven't happened, I could very easily say if the Sri Lankan team bus had been blown up then the repercussions would have been far more severe. However, I don't like to base my argument on conditionals, so I won't stoop to that level.

Also, I think it is very possible that the English team could have been in the hotel at that time, but the point you seem to be missing is that if the players were in the hotel at the time, there would be more security around than when there were just civilians in the hotel. To put it to you more easily, if, for example, the Indian President was staying in the Taj that day, there would have been way more security personnel around. Since Western teams have qualms touring the subcontinent these days, the security provided to them would be more than everyday situations.

This is not "conditional", this is a fact. With the cricket-crazy population of India, touring and Indian cricketers are given a high-level of security to protect against the idiotic fan.

There is a difference in having security against idiots and security against suicide bombers.

Different training; different people.

I understand your point about that, but I'm not sure exactly what more security would have done. Reduced the number of people dead by 40-50 and ended the situation earlier?

It still would have affected the English team, no matter how you look at it.

This is all still conditional - the only fact that exists is there would be more security men, but that is it.

Sid, Wasim Akram works for ESPNStar - he's pretty much an Indian (Jokes)

KC, regarding the eyewitness account, there was damage from a grenade under the bus. There is plenty more which should be disclosed about the incident, but hasn't / isn't being released.

Secondly, he was on the top floor / roof floor of his office building. From such a distance, his account cannot be very reliable.

I base my conclusion about the grenade hitting the bus based on the damage that the bus received on its underside.

 

[sohum]

Really now?

Countries touring Pakistan is a non-issue at this point. It's almost a pointless comparison to make, so I don't know why you felt the need to do that. Maybe you're one attempting to rile me up following the earlier issue in this thread.

Check the deleted posts, and tell me whether your post was no different from the ones that were deleted/infracted for. Based on what has previously happened in this thread, and your knowledge of it as a global moderator, I would say you're the one trying to rile me up.

zMario, as usual you have completely ignored the point I was making, pretended like I made another point and argued against it, and then ignored my telling you that I hadn't made the point in the first place. You still haven't shown me where I said teams shouldn't tour Pakistan; instead, you quoted a post of mine where I said that countries are choosing to tour India while not choosing Pakistan, as being a reflection of how they assess the security risk in either country.

There is a difference in having security against idiots and security against suicide bombers.

Different training; different people.

There is obviously a difference between the provided security. However, given that teams such as England and Australia are not keen to tour the subcontinent in the first place, due to security fears, the security provided would be higher than, say, if Bangladesh had been touring. It wouldn't be the highest level of security affordable, but it would be higher than a couple of cops here and there.

I understand your point about that, but I'm not sure exactly what more security would have done. Reduced the number of people dead by 40-50 and ended the situation earlier?

It still would have affected the English team, no matter how you look at it.

To start with, there would be more restricted entry into the hotel premises. Apart from that, there would be more security personnel present on-hand to deal with situation. Obviously the players would still be affected, though.

 

[Insomniac]

zMario, as usual you have completely ignored the point I was making, pretended like I made another point and argued against it, and then ignored my telling you that I hadn't made the point in the first place. You still haven't shown me where I said teams shouldn't tour Pakistan; instead, you quoted a post of mine where I said that countries are choosing to tour India while not choosing Pakistan, as being a reflection of how they assess the security risk in either country.

Which is the point I am making - somebody in this thread has already been infracted for making that comparison, abit more bluntly, but infracted nevertheless. This thread has nothing to do with the security risk in Pakistan, so it was a non-issue, yet you used Pakistan in your comparison. Either way, forget it.

There is obviously a difference between the provided security. However, given that teams such as England and Australia are not keen to tour the subcontinent in the first place, due to security fears, the security provided would be higher than, say, if Bangladesh had been touring. It wouldn't be the highest level of security affordable, but it would be higher than a couple of cops here and there.

Here's the incorrect thinking now, which is where Pakistan got in trouble with Sri Lanka. Nobody expected an attack on the Sri Lankan Cricket team. They aren't a western team, so they would not be as high-profile as a target for the terrorists, except for the LTTE (now gone). If a western team was touring, you could safely say that security would not have been at that level. If you ask the Barmy Army who toured Pakistan in 2005, they will tell you they had to walk nearly a mile to each stadium during that tour. Pakistan's best security protocol (for touring sides) was in place during that series in 2005.

To start with, there would be more restricted entry into the hotel premises. Apart from that, there would be more security personnel present on-hand to deal with situation. Obviously the players would still be affected, though.

I don't think it would matter whether there are 20 security personnel or 200 if they all refuse to shoot (for whatever reason).

The terrorists were suppousedly guests as well (its 4 AM right now, I don't remember)

Either way (in an effort to get this back on topic), I still fail to see Ijaz Butt's reasoning in still fighting with the ICC if he feels he cannot get games hosted in the UAE.

Obviously, legally and technically speaking, the way the ICC removed Pakistan as a host would easily be challenged and won by the PCB, but that accomplishes nothing.

 

[Insomniac]

So the PCB drop the legal case, if they are given the hosting rights back.

:laugh

Well played Mr. Butt sir, we are now the laughing stock of the world.

Actually, the PCB wants another security assessment by the ICC in January-February of 2010 to decide the hosting rights of Pakistan (as reported by Geo Super / Geo News). This is a complete mockery now, you may as well have fought to host the games in Dubai.

Unbelievable.

Morgan and Butt to meet on August 27 | Cricket News | ICC World Cup 2011 | Cricinfo.com

 

[Howsie]

ICC and PCB resolve 2011 World Cup dispute | Cricket News | ICC World Cup 2011 | Cricinfo.com

The ICC and the PCB have resolved their dispute over the staging of the 2011 World Cup. The PCB, which was stripped of its rights to host the tournament in the aftermath of the attack on Sri Lankan cricketers in Lahore, will retain its host fees and also receive payment as additional compensation for the loss of hosting rights. The two parties reached an agreement during a meeting between the ICC president David Morgan and the PCB chairman Ijaz Butt in Dubai. It is expected that the settlement will be signed later today, at which point the PCB will withdraw its legal proceedings against the ICC.

 

[smssia0112]

Good to finally see a resolution, the last thing this World Cup needed was to be sabotaged by the ICC and politics like the last one.