South Africa's tour of India - October/December 2015

[War]

Why do you and many others think that India needed to make a really bad turning pitch just to stay competitive with SA? Honestly, I think our batsman have shown that they can perform on pacy and bouncy pitches in the past two years. Also, what do we get when we go to England, Australia, and South Africa? They all make pitches based on their strengths, so stop saying that India needed a pitch to their liking just to stay competitive. That is basically the whole point of an away test series, if South Africa want to remain #1 then they have to beat us in our conditions which are turning pitches not freaking pacy pitches. Every other nation does it so what's the issue with India doing it? If you're playing cricket then be ready to face challenges.

Uhh I don't think anythin I said in that post disputed any of this.

 

[PokerAce]

Where does Denesh Karthik rate these days?

A few observations. The assertion you made that it was a great turning pitch, is overstating things. There was not one wicket lost to the ball suddenly jumping off a good length and hitting the gloves, not one wicket lost to a ball keeping low. People if anything kept playing for the turn which wasn't there, and either edged straight deliveries or left balls alone expecting turn which then crashed into the their stumps (Amla, Du Plesis), or just playing rash shots, like Mishra or Steyn.

Of course pitches in India help spinners but the help this gave was par for for the course. If this spin was too much then I think that SA will really go down hard on a pitch that offers real spin.

As for the keeper Karthik most likely has had his chances and he is most likely not going to get anymore. Saha is said to be technically the best pure keeper in the country, but is clearly not a batsman. Ojha is the next alternative, and he is not a poor keeper, and 'looks' a better batsman when batting. He just has that Batsman feel about his whole demeanor when he is at the crease. I personally would go prefer Ojha. He gives me a lot more confidence with the bat.

The long term future for India as keeper is Sanju Samson, but I think he will have to wait a while for his opportunity.

 

[themusketeer]

Nothing much to say, prepared a turning pitch to support their strengths like they have done many times before and won.

What, you are not in England or SA ? England prepare pitch which supports their pace bowling and conditions and Win. Aussies does same. NZ does same.
I would expect everyone to compete with us on turning picth as everyone expects us on a green Pitch.

Let's criticize everything that involves india. See they won, let's criticize their home condition.

 

[AliB]

What you are not in England or SA ? England prepare pitch which supports their pace bowling and conditions and Win. Aussies does same. NZ does same.
I would expect everyone to compete with us on turning picth as everyone expects us on a green Pitch.

Let's criticize everything that involves india. See they won, let's criticize their home condition.

Perfect. Why can't you win on these when we can win on pace-friendly ones?

 

[PokerAce]

The day Eng, Aus, NZ, WI or SA provide India a rank spinner when India tour there, that day will any of them earn a right to complain about India's pitches. Having said that it was not even a proper spin friendly pitch so I don't know what everyone is on about.

 

[Ohm]

I think it wasn't a bad test match at all because I love to see bowlers dominating rather batsmen just hammering and ending up in a very boring way to make it a draw. But thing is India should focus on creating 5-day tracks, or I guess Sachin-Dravid's era was the last in Indian cricket's history to have an order of spin specialists. It's funny how Indian batsmen fell against SA's flabby spin attack on their very own pitch. I believe the pitch was totally bad though. But considering that the same Indian lineup fell against amateur Moin Khan in couple of matches last year in England, and how only Vijay and Pujara can stand longer and others don't when pitch is turning, I had to think that. Only Tahir is the best bowler SA now has for this series and he is not really surrounded by a quality assisting unit. If India continues to produce extremely turning conditions, not only it will continue to be the 3 days match but also that will help SA to get extra training sessions and that could really help them to come back stronger after the second test match or hopefully in the second test match. As the winning margin wasn't as wide as expected, India should try building pitches that could assist both their bowlers and batsmen so they can score better and wide, and that would also decrease some pressure on bowlers which could also help them think better to bowl better even if the conditions are not totally with them as in Mohali. As Hashim Amla thinks if the target was around 160 they could have found it easier, I think they can hope to achieve a win or two in upcoming test matches if India still insist to prepare pitches like Mohali. It is a big concern for India's team management. The tournament is long, SA have already few experienced batsmen for Indian conditions and if JP Duminy is picked then SA will be helped with an exra batting and bowling option as well.

Also Ishant Sharma's ban is lifted and he's ready to play in next games so I think Varun Aaron should be dropped and not Umesh Yadav as we hope to see Ishant making comeback. Aaron was never a good choice for India except they are playing outside the sub-continent. Something that helps him stick in the test side is that he's got the pace. But only the pace would not allow him to pick wickets in these conditions because the opposition are actually masters of playing against pace. And when he hasn't got the swing, the line, the length and the momentum, he will be just hammered again and again. If India can't rely on Umesh Yadav, they must go for Bhuvneshwar Kumar who could trouble the batsmen in earlier overs and who could also reverse swing a little bit.

 

[Aravind.]

But considering that the same Indian lineup fell against amateur Moin Khan in couple of matches last year in England

Moin Khan ? Do you mean Moeen Ali ? If you mean Moeen Ali, then he is decent not amateur...

 

[PokerAce]

I think it wasn't a bad test match at all because I love to see bowlers dominating rather batsmen just hammering and ending up in a very boring way to make it a draw. But thing is India should focus on creating 5-day tracks, or I guess Sachin-Dravid's era was the last in Indian cricket's history to have an order of spin specialists. It's funny how Indian batsmen fell against SA's flabby spin attack on their very own pitch. I believe the pitch was totally bad though. But considering that the same Indian lineup fell against amateur Moin Khan in couple of matches last year in England, and how only Vijay and Pujara can stand longer and others don't when pitch is turning, I had to think that. Only Tahir is the best bowler SA now has for this series and he is not really surrounded by a quality assisting unit. If India continues to produce extremely turning conditions, not only it will continue to be the 3 days match but also that will help SA to get extra training sessions and that could really help them to come back stronger after the second test match or hopefully in the second test match. As the winning margin wasn't as wide as expected, India should try building pitches that could assist both their bowlers and batsmen so they can score better and wide, and that would also decrease some pressure on bowlers which could also help them think better to bowl better even if the conditions are not totally with them as in Mohali. As Hashim Amla thinks if the target was around 160 they could have found it easier, I think they can hope to achieve a win or two in upcoming test matches if India still insist to prepare pitches like Mohali. It is a big concern for India's team management. The tournament is long, SA have already few experienced batsmen for Indian conditions and if JP Duminy is picked then SA will be helped with an exra batting and bowling option as well.

Also Ishant Sharma's ban is lifted and he's ready to play in next games so I think Varun Aaron should be dropped and not Umesh Yadav as we hope to see Ishant making comeback. Aaron was never a good choice for India except they are playing outside the sub-continent. Something that helps him stick in the test side is that he's got the pace. But only the pace would not allow him to pick wickets in these conditions because the opposition are actually masters of playing against pace. And when he hasn't got the swing, the line, the length and the momentum, he will be just hammered again and again. If India can't rely on Umesh Yadav, they must go for Bhuvneshwar Kumar who could trouble the batsmen in earlier overs and who could also reverse swing a little bit.

Well for starters Tendulkar Dravid is another League. Even Ganguly was a great player of spin. He had issues with pace, but Ganguly was a genius at playing spin, and Laxman again was in a class of his own. Then there was Sehwag who was see ball hit ball, and spin or pace held no meaning to him.

You cant compare this generation to previous one, which was in a league of its own.

That point apart, you have to remember that the same batting just won India a series in SL after 22 yrs or something, where the previous generation didn't win a single series. SL too is spinner's haven. So if you want to say the present lot can't play spin, then that I feel is over-reaching.

Also SA in the #1 test side in the world, who have come to India and won against the Tendulkar Dravid generation twice. So to beat an SA side on a 10 yr something unbeaten away series run is by no means a small feat. Too much is being made of the pitch. Spinning wickets are not a new invention in India, which happened just a week ago. SA have been coming to play on these wickets and been winning. So to say SA lost to the pitch, is greatly underestimating the SA players who have won on the same pitches in the past.

Lastly point out to me one wicket that fell to a great deal of spin. Most batsmen just missed or edged straight balls. Some did fall to spin but that was a few degrees of spin you would get anywhere in India.

 

[stefan]

1st test review thoughts

South Africa

Well like most the previous IND tours I've seen with SA during their # 1 rein in 2008 & 2010, they obviously knew they were going to get a real turning IND pitch at some point - arguably more so in this test series since that's the only way IND were going to stay competitive with them.

For like 80% of this match - up to about early parts of SA 2nd innings, this game was like de ja vu to that Mumbai 2000 test between these two teams - 1st Test: India v South Africa at Mumbai, Feb 24-26, 2000 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - just that nobody for SA played Kallis/Boucher type inning's this time around like in 2000.

I found SA test selection after they Duminy & M Morkel were ruled out injured very surprising. I'm also certain that since re-admission SA have never played a test match with so much spin options & from a historical context you would probably have to go back to the early 1900s when SA had Aubrey Faulkner, Bert Vogler & R Schwarz in the same team - so highlight how weird of an occurrence this was for SA.

Surely they should have played that guy Bavuma for extra batting security, especially are Duminy was ruled out. I've heard some SA fans outside these parts suggest he is around the squad mainly as a quota player & a better option from SA domestic cricket may have been picking a pure opener like Andrew Puttick or Reeza Hendricks & letting S Van Zyl bat down the order.

Still think SA have what it takes to win the serious overall & come back just like England did in 2012 once Duminy/M Morkel are fit & Steyn recovers from groin strain. Just go back to 6 bats + Vilas + 3 quicks + 1 spinner.

Will be interesting to see who SA leave out between Morkel/Philander/Rabada though. Certainly think Tahir should play over Harmer - especially with Duminy/Elgar being more than capable supporting spinners.

The issue with leaving bavuma out comes in that he is a "true" african and not a coloured player. The politicos are very keen on this true african bs atm. Even having requirements of the domestic sides playing a certain set of true africans.

I agree with that. I expect we will go with this for the next match:

1.Elgar
2.Van Zyl
3.Faf
4.Amla
5.AB
6.Jp
7.Villas (would rather have qdk here)
8.Philander
9.Steyn/Radaba (if steyn is fit he plays else radaba)
10.Morkel
11.Tahir

Edit:Forgot that jp should be fit for this one

 

[Markkkkk]

I really dont understand your dislike of Vilas. He averages over 40 in FC cricket and has a 200... Also as far as quotas go domestic and provincial level sides must have atleast 6 players in a XI (Dont quote me though)...

 

[PokerAce]

SA feared the worst, they got the worst | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

Three days out, Faf du Plessis was disturbingly negative about the surface and what his team expected from it. "The worst," he said, implying a raging turner, dry, spider-webbed with cracks, unplayable. That one of their senior batsmen was talking this way should have raised alarm bells about South Africa's state of mind. In the end, du Plessis was done by straight deliveries in both innings. Expecting "the worst", it seems, can cloud the vision too.

 

[Satan666]

Typical of South Africa!

 

[stefan]

I really dont understand your dislike of Vilas. He averages over 40 in FC cricket and has a 200... Also as far as quotas go domestic and provincial level sides must have atleast 6 players in a XI (Dont quote me though)...

I simply believe you pick your best players. Vilas is not a better keeper nor a better batsman qdk. When comparing averages must remember Vilas played a lot of cricket at the amateur level below franchise level and that gets recognized as first class runs.

 

[War]

I simply believe you pick your best players. Vilas is not a better keeper nor a better batsman qdk. When comparing averages must remember Vilas played a lot of cricket at the amateur level below franchise level and that gets recognized as first class runs.

Never saw Vilas before the 1st test, all I would say is that his technique looked a bit shaky in general & based on that evidence I can see why one would say QDK is better.

Will be interesting to see how he goes for remainder of series, because its obvious QDK is back in good batting form & it seems like only reason CSA selector stuck with Vilas instead going back to QDK immediatly, was because Vilas didn't get much of a chance to show his batting worth in rain affected series in Bangladesh.

 

[RUDI]

It really doesn't matter what pitch types they play on.. they're all professionals! In this particular match just about all the spinners got wickets.. most of the wickets! As a professional player with the backup of coaching and technical staff you need to adapt.. whether it be on slower, flatter pitches or on bouncy hard pitches.. All seam bowlers will have an advantage on green or hard pitch, spin bowlers on flat dusty pitches ..they still need to do the basics right in order to get wickets. As for batting.. discipline, concentration, endurance and plain hard work with pure determination ; always pays off.. That's why they call it TEST cricket!