The Situation In America

[Dutch]

Okay I realize this kind of thread is going to be contentious and I request that any discussion here is thought through and civilized! I follow the situation in America very closely and am wondering how others view the situation there.

There is serious polarization: just looking at FoxNews and CNN will show you how polarized opinions are.

How do others perceive things? I know a number of our members live in the States and I am keen to hear from you.

 

[El Loco]

Don't profess to know much about what goes on at the other side of the pond.
However one of the many problems that I think can be observed right now is the identity politics game. Speak out in favour of a single policy implemented by the current administration and immediately you're a Trump supporter. Of course there's a multiplicity of ways people can be categorised into groups but once you make group identity paramount and primary over individual identity then things begin to deteriorate quite rapidly, especially when it comes to the attribution of group guilt.
We also tend to see the same thing extended to other realms also, for example the rhetorics surrounding gender and racial inequality repectively.
I've heard it said that Hillary was at the top every single poll in the lead up to the election until she started playing the identity politics game which caused the swing of the electorate to the other side.

Of course it's not an issue that is unique to the American socio-political climate but it seems to be exacerbated somewhat in that country. It takes an extensive discussion to deconstruct this kind of thing but perhaps one of the factors is virtue-signalling on behalf of the so-called regressive left where for a while there has been somewhat of a breakaway from classical liberalism in favour of more extreme measures to tackle these problems without much effort made to realise what causes these problems in the first place.

Feel free to skip over this if it doesn't quite hit the mark of what you wanted to discuss by the way. Just my two cents.

 

[Dutch]

Don't profess to know much about what goes on at the other side of the pond.
However one of the many problems that I think can be observed right now is the identity politics game. Speak out in favour of a single policy implemented by the current administration and immediately you're a Trump supporter. Of course there's a multiplicity of ways people can be categorised into groups but once you make group identity paramount and primary over individual identity then things begin to deteriorate quite rapidly, especially when it comes to the attribution of group guilt.
We also tend to see the same thing extended to other realms also, for example the rhetorics surrounding gender and racial inequality repectively.
I've heard it said that Hillary was at the top every single poll in the lead up to the election until she started playing the identity politics game which caused the swing of the electorate to the other side.

Of course it's not an issue that is unique to the American socio-political climate but it seems to be exacerbated somewhat in that country. It takes an extensive discussion to deconstruct this kind of thing but perhaps one of the factors is virtue-signalling on behalf of the so-called regressive left where for a while there has been somewhat of a breakaway from classical liberalism in favour of more extreme measures to tackle these problems without much effort made to realise what causes these problems in the first place.

Feel free to skip over this if it doesn't quite hit the mark of what you wanted to discuss by the way. Just my two cents.

Great post! The whole republican/democrat thing is so extreme over there: there seems to be no middle ground whatsoever: you are either a raging Marxist anarchist in the eyes of a republican or a neo Nazi fanatic in the eyes of a democrat. On both sides of the extremes of the political spectrum these people are there but where is the middle ground, the perception of we are all somehow in this together and need to help each other to get out of it.
Trump is someone who has 'achieved' through rewarding 'loyalty' and punishing any whiff of dissent and thus creating this political environment where in their is no debate whatsoever, just poisonous trolling akin to the worst of the internet.

 

[Ed Smith]

Seems to be very similar to what we have going on over here. A huge divide between the left and right wings, and zero willingness to compromise on either side. You either have to be a MAGA gun toting 'Merican, or you're a commie lefty snowflake. There has to be a middle ground found. Or it'll only get worse.

Its exacerbated by the President being a giant man baby kicking off on twitter all the time, and the seemingly amazing ability to pretend the COVID pandemic doesn't exist. Whole thing is fecked.

 

[Dutch]

Seems to be very similar to what we have going on over here. A huge divide between the left and right wings, and zero willingness to compromise on either side. You either have to be a MAGA gun toting 'Merican, or you're a commie lefty snowflake. There has to be a middle ground found. Or it'll only get worse.

Its exacerbated by the President being a giant man baby kicking off on twitter all the time, and the seemingly amazing ability to pretend the COVID pandemic doesn't exist. Whole thing is fecked.

Exasperated by a public that is in some cases utterly thick. Sorry to say it but if you listen to what people are saying over there and how they get their information it's unbelievable. My sense is that trump is trying to create agitation and violence and confrontation just to try and galvanize his political spectrum. A country is utterly fecked if it's leaders serve nothing but themselves.

 

[El Loco]

Great post! The whole republican/democrat thing is so extreme over there: there seems to be no middle ground whatsoever: you are either a raging Marxist anarchist in the eyes of a republican or a neo Nazi fanatic in the eyes of a democrat. On both sides of the extremes of the political spectrum these people are there but where is the middle ground, the perception of we are all somehow in this together and need to help each other to get out of it.
Trump is someone who has 'achieved' through rewarding 'loyalty' and punishing any whiff of dissent and thus creating this political environment where in their is no debate whatsoever, just poisonous trolling akin to the worst of the internet.

I agree, until they can find a way to escape this dichotomous way of thinking and engage in civilised discourse then the polarisation will continue for the forseeable future. People have to be open to the possibility of being offended in order to understand where the other side is coming from but they are not willing to do that. It gets to the point where if you bring up a sensitive topic the very fact that you have done so becomes taboo by definition.

Since as you said you are following the American situation quite closely I have a question.
What principles characterise the current conservatism movement in the USA and why is it looked on askance by the vast majority of the American public?

 

[Ed Smith]

Exasperated by a public that is in some cases utterly thick. Sorry to say it but if you listen to what people are saying over there and how they get their information it's unbelievable. My sense is that trump is trying to create agitation and violence and confrontation just to try and galvanize his political spectrum. A country is utterly fecked if it's leaders serve nothing but themselves.

Yeah. Trump is a total selfservative, and in that climate. He's dangerous.

 

[El Loco]

Yeah. Trump is a total selfservative, and in that climate. He's dangerous.

I presume you mean this in the sense that everything he does in the public domain serves only to ensure he retains his current position. What tactics is he employing in order to achieve this and to what extent do you think it is working? And it what way is the fact that he is doing this detrimental to America as a whole?

 

[wasteyouryouth]

I presume you mean this in the sense that everything he does in the public domain serves only to ensure he retains his current position. What tactics is he employing in order to achieve this and to what extent do you think it is working? And it what way is the fact that he is doing this detrimental to America as a whole?

He is, effectively, declaring war on Democratic cities. Have you seen what's happening in Portland?He plans to do the same in Chicago and other cities that are run by Democrats.

Trump is the embodiment of American conservatism as it currently stands and everything that is wrong with America (and other countries including the UK).

Greed
Ignorance
Anti intellectualism
Anti science
Anti woman
White supremacist/racist
Intolerant
Authoritarian

 

[Dutch]

Since as you said you are following the American situation quite closely I have a question.
What principles characterise the current conservatism movement in the USA and why is it looked on askance by the vast majority of the American public?

The conservative movement has always been closely tied to the question of wealth and of religion. It's very telling that the words "In God We Trust" are the motto of the American dollar and therefore of the American dream: anyone can make it here: (As long as you have been approved by the powers that be, i.e white, male, dominant, boys club.)

As long as a sector of the population believe and is lead to believe that their way of life, their existence, their place on Earth is a God-given right and they are in fact THE spokes people of this divine entity, whatever that may be or call itself, then there is just no reasoning, no debate, no collective identity but a perpetuation of US versus THEM.

This has always been the underlying current in American society and Trump is its pinnacle of showing what that means and he knows how to galvanize that in a way to create division, fear and confrontation, using whichever situation he can to show himself to be the Chosen One.

For months he slated New York for its handling of the Corona crisis: now he is saying that the fact that they have it under control is due to his administration: (Whereas New York was one of the states that said we will follow science and not you: many of the Southern States followed Trump and are now paying the price). It's the way he rolls and its as if he is so used to lying and bending truth that he believes what he says and believes that no-one sees how he is so untruthful.

And take a couple of minutes to read Fox News and then say The New York Times. Fox News is his propaganda machine and it is unbelievable how many people just lap it up.

 

[El Loco]

Just read up on the Portland situation and from what I understand it is part of wider tactic to create the narrative that troops have been deployed to quell violent liberal protests. Now we see group identity at play once again with protesters, mobs, fascists, the left and the democrats all lumped in together under one roof. I can definitely see people who are generally uninformed buying it, but equally it could also be seen as an authoritative measure employed to retain power and therefore turn more people against him.

So it seems to be the case that Trump is utilising the religiosity of the American population in order rally support. However I believe the American constitution mentions the divine in its preambles only to declare how it should have no say in how the country is run. Even Thomas Jefferson himself was quoted as having said there will forever be a wall of separation between the state and the church. In light of that fact all of this sounds very unconstitutional to me, surely there needs to be a point at which the government is held accountable for violating this principle.

 

[Dutch]

Just read up on the Portland situation and from what I understand it is part of wider tactic to create the narrative that troops have been deployed to quell violent liberal protests. Now we see group identity at play once again with protesters, mobs, fascists, the left and the democrats all lumped in together under one roof. I can definitely see people who are generally uninformed buying it, but equally it could also be seen as an authoritative measure employed to retain power and therefore turn more people against him.

So it seems to be the case that Trump is utilising the religiosity of the American population in order rally support. However I believe the American constitution mentions the divine in its preambles only to declare how it should have no say in how the country is run. Even Thomas Jefferson himself was quoted as having said there will forever be a wall of separation between the state and the church. In light of that fact all of this sounds very unconstitutional to me, surely there needs to be a point at which the government is held accountable for violating this principle.

He says it is is to fight crime but he uses it to perpetuate acts of violence on what are essentially political enemies in his eye ( THE sign of a despotic regime). They are all democratic lead cities. The Republican Party has been all too quiet turning a blind eye to abject abuse of power.

 

[El Loco]

He says it is is to fight crime but he uses it to perpetuate acts of violence on what are essentially political enemies in his eye ( THE sign of a despotic regime). They are all democratic lead cities. The Republican Party has been all too quiet turning a blind eye to abject abuse of power.

The sad thing is that these galvanising methods that you mentioned are likely going to be effective in the long run especially when you put Trump up against Biden who is massively diluting his campaign by trying to pander to all sides of the political spectrum.

 

[ahmedleo414]

I'm just glad I don't live in the US. After university, I got a couple of offers to take a job there, but I wanted to be closer to home. Sure there's more money to be made down there, but here in Canada, I have never felt unsafe or threatned.

I have gone down to the US to travel and vist and almost never had any visit where I felt I was welcome there. I've been to New York, New Jersey, Washington DC and Maryland.

My last visit to Jersey, I was staying with my cousin, who was renting a room from a little old lady who was a republican through and through. This is when Trump was either running for election or had just been elected I can't remember. On my last day there, she says to me, I don't know why Trump says you people are all rapists and murders, you boys have been so wonderful to have around the house... I didn't know what else to say, so I just said thanks...

I can't even begin to understand why people vote the way they do. I have never liked politics, I feel like the more political talks I have with my friends, the less friends I end up having.

I have a few people I work with, here in Canada, who absoultly love Trump and everything that he has done. I seriously can't understand, why or how..

 

[WubbaLubbaDubDub]

Hello, not an American but living here in States for 9 years now. Here is my observation

People here are very gullible. I have friends and co-workers who are die hard Trump Supporters and others who are exactly opposite who hate him like anything. One good thing is that these friends and co-workers get along but thats not the case all around the States.

Now this is what I have noticed and heard from Pro Trump Supporters

BLM matters but riots should not happen, will not wear mask before Trump asked them and now they will wear Mask since last two days Trump is wearing Mask. I sometimes feel the privileged whites who show that they support BLM is because of Social Media. They do not want be the next Karen and hence they show fake support. I can feel when they talk that they do not care about BLM at all. They are just going with flow hoping it ends soon. Trump has so much influence on them that if he asks his supporters to shit in their pants, his supporters will.

Now as an outsider I feel that Trump is 20% right. Immigration is such a pain point for all of us in recent 10-15 years. Just as an example, if I apply for Permanent Residence on my Masters degree, for Indian nationals the wait is 151 years. I feel he is good for the economy since he only knows one thing and that is business or the making the greens.

Joe Biden or Democratic party are not doing enough to show they care about American public. They do not have the pulse of the public and hence are losing. Trump is adding salt to injury. Him not supporting any Democratic rules state is causing more trouble. I feel even a president like Obama supported Biden last minute. Democratic party definitely needs better leadership. I do not know how Biden will be for US but businesses who are democratic supporters want another Trump term.

There is a lot of small things going on which will become big soon. Pandemic has shown all one thing for sure, Trump cannot run a country, he can only run economy. Good economy does not necessary mean good country, If people do not survive this pandemic, the economy will never recover.

Trump supporters always have this excuse that only 1% would be affected or die, 33 million of 1% is 330000 dying. Those 330000 infect another 330000. Half of them will suffer permanent damage in terms of kidney failure or lung failure. Now imagine the impact 1% dying people have.