The "undroppables"

[Owzat]

Have England gone too far the opposite way from their policy of making too many changes , mostly associated with the 1990s?

I ask this because much focus has come on Cook, Pietersen, Strauss and Collingwood to different degrees for each, but noone seems likely to be axed :

2010 vs Pakistan

119 runs @ 19.83 : Collingwood - top score of 82, scored 37 runs otherwise in five innings @ 7.40

140 runs @ 23.33 : Pietersen - top score of 80 (scratchy), 60 runs otherwise in five innings @ 12.00

155 runs @ 25.83 : Strauss - top score of 53no, 102 runs otherwise in six innings @ 17.00

167 runs @ 23.86 : Cook - top score of 110, 57 runs otherwise in six innings @ 9.50


I'll throw Morgan in as well, another whose best score pretty much carries his series average

175 runs @ 29.17 : Morgan - top score of 130, 45 runs otherwise in five innings @ 9.00


While you need to be consistent in selection to some degree, do we go too far in retaining players? I think we now play many more weak sides than before and so it is all too easy for batsmen to eventually find some runs that save them from the axe. Didn't Strauss, Cook, Pietersen and Collingwood all go down under in 06/07 and were part of the side that got bowled out for less than 200 FIVE TIMES? Cook made nearly half his series runs in one innings (116 out of 276), Strauss made one fifty, Collingwood also scored near half his series runs in one innings (206 out of 433).

I'm all for a little bit of consistent selection, but the batsmen do need to face at least a prospect of being dropped.



Pietersen - 18 inns, 538 runs @ 33.63
That includes four fifties and two not outs

Collingwood - 24 inns, 770 runs @ 33.48.
Has had enough moments/scores in each series to keep the average about respectable

Strauss - 21 inns, 676 runs @ 33.80
Considering that includes six fifties it isn't that impressive

Cook - 13 inns, 395 runs @ 32.92
Cook scores hundreds just frequently enough, his form is concealed by two hundreds vs Bangladesh so it had to be somewhat fewer innings than ideal. Considering he scored 110 last Test it shows how poor his most recent form has been.

Morgan - 8 inns, 256 runs @ 32.00.
Over half his runs came in one innings of 130, the other 126 @ 18.00

These runs of form do include series vs Bangladesh. Morgan for me is an ODI player and shouldn't be near the Test side. As for Trott :

Trott

Inns 01-04 : 257 runs @ 64.25 (HS 119)
Inns 05-13 : 229 runs @ 25.44 (HS 64)
Inns 14-14 : 226 runs @ 226.00 (HS 226)
Inns 15-22 : 259 runs @ 43.17 (HS 55, includes two not outs)
Inns 23-23 : 184 runs @ 184.00 (HS 184)

A blip after a good start, he did go nine innings with a top score of 64 and another eight innings with a top score of 55, so isn't entirely without fault or relatively scratchy spells.


So where do you draw the line? How bad does form have to be before batsmen get dropped? Pietersen will be going to Australia with very little in the way of convincing Test runs under his belt. While England may have soundly beaten Pakistan, that is more down to convincing bowling and unconvincing Pakistani batting than England batsmen being in form.

 

[calebelfc]

Very interesting points you make. Interesting Stuff. Looking at the players you've highlighted, I feel that Morgan will be replaced for Bell come Brisbane. The selectors and Andy Flower seem to admire his temperament and so on but after this abysmal series with the bat, will look to sure it up with a bit of experience and class.

The conditions this summer have not been helpful and in Australia the bouncy, flat wickets will suit players like Pietersen and Strauss. Although as your analysis says, it's not just in this series of poor batting conditions where they've been failing. It's been consistently poor for a while now so us and commentators alike need not believe that this series is just a mere blip.

Strauss has looked in good nick for a while but hasn't scored big for a good while. For him, it's important he has a good winter to reassure his place in the side, as captain.

Cook as you say has a convenient knack of scoring a hundred at the right time but his technique WILL be exposed yet again in Australia.

Trott has really come on leaps and bounds since the South Africa series. He can play gritty knocks, as we saw in the most recent test vs Pakistan. It was an innings to me that you'd have expected a certain Paul Collingwood to play which makes me question his involvement in the side.

KP is class personified. BUT, and it's a big but, he's not scoring runs. As I say, the Australian pitches will suit him and he's a man for the occasion. What I feel is vital for him more than most is if he scores runs in the warm up games.

As I said, Collingwood's inclusion raises doubts in my mind of how important he is. As we can see Trott is more that capable of being the man to score when the goings tough and to me it seems Collingwood is England's "get out of jail card". Only in the side for a tricky situation. He will play come Brisbane, no doubt. And I hope his previous success down under can produce some big innings' from him.

I'm interested to see how it all shapes up in the coming months!

 

[Iridium]

This series has been a small blip for Strauss in what has been a pretty good run of form. He'll be retained for sure. I doubt he'd be dropped as captain so close to the Ashes and the World Cup.

Pietersen will probably never be dropped and if faced with that predicament, expect him to come right and make a big score. Cook was in that situation and he bailed himself out with a century. He'll be playing in Australia.

Morgan for me is an ODI player and shouldn't be near the Test side.

Agreed. I would let him focus on his limited overs cricket for now and wait till he shows some good form in county cricket before bringing him back in. I still think he's a potential long term player in the Test side.

 

[Collingwood50]

Collingwood brings more to the team than runs though. He is popular, keeps moral up blah blah and can definitley give the convicts good banter in the winter. He also makes up runs with his fielding.

HOWEVER, if his bad run of form continues, he should be dropped. The difference with KP is that he hasn't been in good form in tests for over a year. If that was any other player he would be back to his county.............oh wait KP doesn't think he needs one. I love his arrogance, but it's being propped up by his undroppableness at the moment, not by reverse switch hitting paddlesweeping every bowler in the land for six.

I have not seen KP's 'class personified' for a long time.... not in test cricket that is

 

[calebelfc]

I have not seen KP's 'class personified' for a long time.... not in test cricket that is

It's a shame as well because it's his "class" that sets him apart from other players. He can, (in form), take the game away from a side in a session but hasn't even had an occasion in the past 18 months when he's done that.

 

[Collingwood50]

It's a shame as well because it's his "class" that sets him apart from other players. He can, (in form), take the game away from a side in a session but hasn't even had an occasion in the past 18 months when he's done that.

So can Trott,Strauss,Colly,Swann,Prior?

 

[wildcore]

the guys you mentioned have tons of experience and passion,dont look their forms.You won't get better then them.

 

[calebelfc]

So can Trott,Strauss,Colly,Swann,Prior?

They're all talented players who as you say can change a game in a sesion, but Pietersen takes the game away from teams in such an imposing and dominating manor and, when on form, on a more frequent basis.

 

[Iridium]

the guys you mentioned have tons of experience and passion,dont look their forms.You won't get better then them.

What do you mean don't look at their form? If they're not performing, they shouldn't really be in the team. Yes, it's all very well to have experience and passion but that all means jack-all if you're constantly failing with the bat.

 

[WubbaLubbaDubDub]

Really thats good stats to be shown. I think Kevin and Strauss will be back to best soon and I see Aussie winning the Ashes but not that humliating As they too are known for batting collapse be it be any condition. Its really sad Cook's form. He deserves a break from england side

 

[Owzat]

the guys you mentioned have tons of experience and passion,dont look their forms.You won't get better then them.

But you see THAT is the debate, should overall averaging 40+ over-ride poor form? Can we safely assume noone else can possibly do better just because in the past players have come in, played 2-3 Tests and been dropped?

These players are bound to average 40+, we play West Indies, New Zealand and Bangladesh so often that they will always get a runs boost from those series. But if you don't give other batsmen a try, even if to give the "experienced and passionate" batsmen a rest/break, how will we ever know what other batsmen are capable of?!? How did we find out Trott is about our best batsman at the moment? By giving him a chance and finding out.

As I say, that is the whole crux of the debate, how long do players have to fail before someone else is given a chance? Carberry came in and got little chance, Bopara came in and as soon as he had a rough spell was out of the side, and the story seems to be the same except for these "undroppables".

re Collingwood - well I'm guessing his defence is being presented by his biggest fan :sarcasm Other players bring plenty to the side in slips, fielding etc. Collingwood is in the side to BAT, and has missed a few chances in his time so isn't 'perfect' by any means in the field. He needs to bulk up his runs, although he has rescued England a few times in the past 2-3 years

re Pietersen being "class personified" - where is this "class" and why when needed does he not always produce it?

England losses and the "class" of Pietersen

vs Pakistan - 6 & 23
vs South Africa - 7 & 12
vs Australia - n/a
vs West Indies - 97 & 1
vs India - 4 & 1
vs South Africa - 45 & 13
vs South Africa - 4 & 94
vs New Zealand - 42 & 6
vs Sri Lanka - 31 & 18
vs India - 13 & 19

Not much point continuing back beyond that as it was a 0-5 drubbing and a series worth of scores is hardly likely to be a fair reflection on how he performs when England lose when it is five losses on the bounce.

What of those scores makes Pietersen stand out as "class". Perhaps the TWO fifties? Or maybe the 436 runs @ 24.22? Point being he fails with the bat as miserably as other batsmen when England lose - 13 of his 18 scores falling below that 24.22 average and SEVEN of them single figures. And does a batsman of such "class" give his wicket away as often as Pietersen? Surely the measure of a batsman's class is in his weight of runs, difficulty to get out, not throwing his wicket away, ability to get big scores and when needed, his ability to play for the team not himself etc? I think some people confuse "class" with a natural ability Pietersen has that he is sadly wasting, you can forgive lesser abled batsmen but Pietersen needs to wake up and start applying himself. Some thought his scratchy 80 was a return to form, but did he score 80 runs because he was grafting or because he was dropped so many times it was effectively four or five innings of between 5 and 20 runs a time? ie four failures rolled into one innings not a constructed innings.

 

[calebelfc]

I totally agree with what you say and you have the stats to back yourself up. But not the stats in all the matches. How can you disregard the 5-0 series loss to Australia in your analysis. Because it's "5 losses on the bounce"?? To me that provides a fair and more precise analysis. If you did include those 5 tests down under, Pietersen, in the last 19 games England have lost, averages 33.91.

Now compare that to someone such as Ricky Ponting. In his last 18 losses for Australia, (which dates back to 2000!!!) he averages a "mere" 35.63.

The great Sachin Tendulkar. In his last 19 losses for India he averages 30.00.

I think you are underestimating Pietersen's record in games England have lost, especially when it matches up to the game's greats. And I doubt you wouldn't say Ponting and Tendulkar are "class personified".

Pietersen needs to start scoring runs again. Absoloutely! His form has been well below par these past 18 months although I think for some of that time he's been feeling the after effects of that horrendous achilles injury.

 

[Themer]

Owzat it would seem you have your wish. Kevin Pietersen accidentally tweeted that he's been dropped from the ODI and Twenty20 squad in what was meant to be a private message to someone.

He's also signed for Surrey according to the tweet but he's deleted it already.

 

[Collingwood50]

They're all talented players who as you say can change a game in a sesion, but Pietersen takes the game away from teams in such an imposing and dominating manor and, when on form, on a more frequent basis.

Swann dominates the others,

And just because Trott doesn't smash every ball to the boundary so some people in the crowd say 'cool' it does not mean it wasn't imposing and dominating.

I really don't like Pietersen. And don't understand why everyone thinks he is god and 'should be given time to work out his batting etc'. If ANY other batsman had gone over a year without a 100, they would have been dropped - Strauss, Colly, Bell, Cook nearly was etc. WHY DOESN'T HE?!

I genuinley don't understant it, Please can someone explain it to me?

 

[Themer]

WHY DOESN'T HE?!

HE IS NOW! CALM DOWN.