3rd Test: Australia v England at The WACA, Perth, 13-17 Dec

england went no.1 in the rankings in about 2009, you could argue the last 3-4 years, barring the odd minor hiccup, have been the best cricket england has played since the 50s.

you're right, they have always wanted an all-rounder. just that a brief glance at their record makes you think "why?"

hell, even flintoff was liability most of the time.

ENG went # 1 according to faulty ranking when they beat India in 2011. But they were never actually # 1.

However yes the last couple years has certainly been the most consistent ENG test side since the ENG side who were the real # 1, who went unbeaten in test series from 1951-1958.

Only Ray Illingworth's England from 1968-73 that won famous series in Australia & Windies (although Cowdrey captain in the windies tour win) could compare.

I'm not saying ENG always wanted an all-rounder in their history. They always wanted an all-rounder since Flintoff left in 2009 - because the balance he brought to the side from 2002-2009 was invaluable.

And before Flintoff, similarly too with Craig White as an all-rounder. During the Duncan Fletcher coaching era, having 5-bowlers was very common for ENG in tests.

But after they realized no good all-rounders was around - they just went for the simple 4-bowler attack. They sensibly didn't make the same mistake England made during the 1990s when ENG tried desperately to find the new Botham - using below par players/batting bowlers a position too high in order i.e David Capel, Chris Lewis, Mark Ealham, Dominic Cork, Mike Watkinson for eg

Not sure how you could say "Flintoff was a liability most of the time" - you talking about one the most complete all-rounders in ENG test history alongside Botham, Trevor Bailey, Tony Greig & Wilfred Rhodes.
 
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The way the two sides bat though Australia speed the game up whereas England take time out of the game.

While putting pressure on themselves. They needed to do today what Australia have been doing to Swann. They needed to attack Lyon, putting pressure on Clarke to bring back Harris or Mitch before they were ready. Instead they let the bowlers pressure them into getting out on bad shots. England were batting well for as long as they were playing positive.
 
Dear Mr Ben Stokes, It's time for you to announce yourself on the international stage. You know what to do. :cheers
 
Ashes is certainly going to AUS now in this test at some point. Broad injured and not bowling, Prior miss stumping chance of Warner & Cook drops Rogers at slip...
 
Good thing England have 5 bowlers, otherwise they would only have 3 now, and that would be disasterous
 
Australia are really ahead in this match now. David Warner is playing his natural attacking game with 81 not out and Chris Rogers is starting to find some form with 42 not out. Not losing a wicket that session and with a lead of 257 runs puts Australia in a really strong position.

Matt Prior missing the stumping of David Warner and not going for a simple catch off Chris Rogers really sums up England's luck this series. Stuart Broad going for an X-ray because of a Mitchell Johnson yorker also hurts England.

Unless England produce something really special with the ball they are going to struggle to win this match and will lose the Ashes.
 
England skittled from 136/2 to 251 all out, last six wickets tumbling for 61 runs

0-3 down, looking at the last eight Ashes Tests England have dominated two, won a close contest and been on the end of domination FIVE times. I say the 3rd Test was a turning point, will very soon be 3-1 to the aussies for the past six Tests.

Good thing England have 5 bowlers, otherwise they would only have 3 now, and that would be disasterous

I trust you are joking, the game is gone and having three bowlers would not make any difference. Very simplistic view that, a "spare" in case of injury. They're not tyres you know.

As I said before, injuries are fairly rare and if you lose a bowler you make do. So far five bowler theory has led to one defeat, a probable defeat and in the Oval Test England got away with it because the aussies were trying to conjure a result. In the 1st innings of those Tests :

2013 5th Test 492/9d
13/14 2nd Test 590/7d
13/14 3rd Test 385 and heading for defeat

Made all the difference, not! Stokes made 1 & 18 in the 1st innings, in the 2nd Test at Adelaide 6-11 made 10 runs between them, this 3rd Test they made a much better but not in terms of what was needed 73 runs.

At the Oval they did make 120 runs between them thanks in the main to Prior (47) and Swann (34), but that didn't stop the bowlers conceding all but 500. Four bowlers could have managed the above, the injury to Broad is a long term concern but frankly England have all but surrendered their chances of retaining the Ashes so he should be rested ahead of the next series
 
We may as well as bring out England Under 19s, they would give a better go rather than this lot.
 
Stokes is probably good enough to play as a bowler only, certainly not quite there in the batting.

I think he needs time, probably a number seven at best. I'm not convinced he offers a lot to the bowling.

I mean 2/70, 0/20, 1/63 and 1/65 are very good figures for a part-timer, not so handy when you want someone who could win you matches with their bowling.

If it were to fill in overs where England want to play two spinners even then I'd question the need for a fifth bowler, if the pitch is going to turn enough to warrant two spinners then surely they'd be bowling 50-60 or more overs in a day anyway and a Root or Pietersen would fill in any spare overs to rest say Anderson and Broad.........................

I reckon he'd be a fine option for ODIs, I've long maintained England use way too many of the Test squad for ODIs. He is only 22, but that doesn't automatically mean he'll become a Flintoff or better. County cricket isn't a great measure of someone's ability to bat at Test level, especially when it comes to "all-rounders".

As War I think it was listed out England's woes with all-rounders, seeking the solution instead of accepting players picked weren't good enough. He gives Flintoff more credit than I ever would, Flintoff had a few great series but was overall a disappointment in terms of what he could have delivered.

And I don't believe he did give England balance, it just meant we kept playing the wheelie bin (Giles) who averaged a terrible 40.60 with the ball for England in Tests, and it was a lot worse against most top sides - 56.95 vs Australia, 50.18 vs India, 55.63 vs South Africa.

It was only decent against Pakistan because of one series in 00/01 (17 wkts @ 24.12) and against Sri Lanka for one in 03/04 (18 wkts @ 29.94)

Many maintain Flintoff couldn't operate as part of a four man attack, but there were ways and means. England wanted to include a spinner, this has been the case since Gooch was captain who was very pragmatic and realised six batsmen and four bowlers is the best way forward. Shame for him was Caddick only hit the Test scene in 1993, Gough in 1994 and Cork in 1995, and for some reason they only played something like 37 times together


Back to the ODI dilemma, Stokes played in the ODIs in the summer averaging a modest 19.00 with bat and decent 28.17 with ball. I think England rested a few key players then, but if you look at the make-up of the series vs New Zealand then Trott, Bell, Anderson, Root, Cook, Bresnan, Swann and Broad of the regulars in Tests all played so that's EIGHT out of an XI, albeit Bresnan is/was the least regular and I think Pietersen was injured which would have made it nine.

The only real ODI "specialists" were Woakes, Dernbach, Tredwell, Buttler and arguably Morgan who is often a 'turn to' Test player. I've long maintained some of the Test players aren't so fantastic in ODIs that we shouldn't look at non-Test playing alternatives, although I draw a line at the likes of Yardy, Shight and that kind of bits n pieces player.

At least if we get players like Stokes established in ODIs they could be better prepared if England needed them as Test fill-ins. While the format does produce some variances, the quality of bowling etc is much the same and it is intense so better preparation than (just) county cricket, "performance squad" tours etc and of course being thrown in at the deep end as Stokes has been.
 
The Urn is coming home, that delivery by Stokes was just awesome.
 
I've been saying for a few years that flat decks are England's Achilles heel. It was astounding during the last tour that Australia kept preparing pitches that suited our bowlers. England play best on bowlers' tracks as they know they'll be able to get the opposition cheaply and that takes pressure off the batsmen.
 

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