Andy Flower or Kevin Pietersen - who stays?

[Samuels]

ECB may call it a move "to look to the future and start to rebuild not only the team but also team ethic and philosophy" but we all know the decision to drop KP is mindless at the time when they needed him the most. Cook has been out of touch for some time now and Trott is not mentally strong. There has to be a person that holds the England team well and who better than KP? The decision came as a shock to me like everyone else particularly when Flower had faced the axe early on. I do not see ECB coming up with any satisfying reason for not considering who in cricinfo's terms is "one of their greatest-ever batsmen". There have been instances of pivotal players getting the boot and drop them after a rough patch but I do not see any good reason for KP to be dropped from the team, at least on form and more so because the team do not have too many experienced players in their ranks. This what I feel is the 'I am the boss' attitude from the ECB and it would only take the cricket in England on the darker side and the fans away from the game.

 

[SpitfiresKent]

I don't see anyone in the roster at the minute... Cook has potential to be a Strauss as he grows though, I'm sure of that.

I can see Broad as a possible test captain in the near future. Cook is far too boring and his tactics are woeful and too defensive, how many times during the ashes did an edge fly through the vacant 3rd or 4th slip area and yet Cook still wouldn't drop someone in there

I'd let Cook focus on his batting and give Broad the captaincy.

 

[Lebanna]

I can see Broad as a possible test captain in the near future. Cook is far too boring and his tactics are woeful and too defensive, how many times during the ashes did an edge fly through the vacant 3rd or 4th slip area and yet Cook still wouldn't drop someone in there

I'd let Cook focus on his batting and give Broad the captaincy.

I think it was mentioned on here sometime ago but bringing Morgan back (especially with KP now dropped) might be an option. Plus he could potentially be the captain.

 

[SpitfiresKent]

Agreed, completely forgot about Morgan. With KP now gone I think no.4 would suit Morgan. I would like to see him get given a run in the team this summer.

 

[barmyarmy]

Just to add that the ECB has been briefing and leaking against KP for some time and I would expect their to be comments and stories emerging in the next few days (in spite of anything that has been signed or KP's lawyers) that paint a negative picture.
Dominic Cork mentioned today the "altercation" between Cook and KP in Sydney. Might just be me but it seems that players who care about their country should be angry about losing 5-0 and pointing out to Cook where he's going wrong, which I'm sure KP did in his usual tactful way, may be the wrong approach but it was right in cricketing terms. Cook had isolated him from the team and the decision making way before that. Looks to me like he was trying to force a reaction and he, almost, got one.

According to Vaughan this never happened. Further example of ECB mendaciousness.

 

[TeKuitiBrian]

Can't understand decision to Ax KP. Aren't a POM, but a
Cricket lover , and KP is really good to watch . He averaged 30 for the recent ashes series - not great - but not a sacking offense .

Unless his personality is psychotic or massively toxic , why sack your best batsman?? Hardly like the POMS have lots of depth to
Draw on?! Force KP to get some counseling if his personality is a bit rough , work with the bloke. I don't get it. You didn't see the Aussies sacking
Warne because he was a real individual and
Created issues with his off field antics .

England management must be dinosaurs . Oh well, if they want a bunch of second rate yes men who can analyse why they are not scoring runs instead of a no nonsense master blaster like KP , England sealed their fate as mediocre for years to come.

As a kiwi, firmly believe NZ would cane England now in any form of the game on current form. Maybe KP should move to NZ and play out his days.

Hmm this saga seems to have dragged further than I'd initially expected.

Ashes 2013-14: Andy Flower refuses to give backing to Kevin Pietersen but admits defeat is end of an era - Telegraph

Ashes 2013-14: If Andy Flower cannot work with Kevin Pietersen then the England coach has to go - Telegraph

Ashes 2013-14: Kevin Pietersen must be given more power - if he is axed it will be a sad loss for English cricket - Telegraph

Ashes 2013-14: Kevin Pietersen must be made England vice-captain to confront 'yes-men' - Telegraph

Ashes 2013-14: Alastair Cook needs to call on Michael Vaughan for guidance to help rebuild England - Telegraph

Love that final article in special from Shane Warne (barring the section involving Michael Carberry). Some excellent points in there.

Personally it's a no brainer for me, and I'll just quote Piers Morgan who summed it up to perfection on twitter: "Kevin Pietersen sells you [ECB] tickets for test match cricket, not [dictator] Andy Flower."

 

[barmyarmy]

Maybe KP should move to NZ and play out his days.

Wonder if he still qualifies for SA. He can replace Kallis...

 

[karolkarol]

KP vs Cook aside, this leaves a massive gap in England's middle order and the team devoid of a batsman the opposition are afraid of. Apart potentially from Morgan and his unorthodoxies I can't see anybody in England currently who is going to boss test bowling attacks.

Stokes looks a prospect in that kind of Flintoff role and if Prior can rediscover his form I reckon England can be ok, filling the gaps with Ballance, Taylor or Ali but they will never dominate while they don't have dominant personalities in the team. It's all too public school, yes sir no sir, pass the soggy biscuit.

 

[blockerdave]

basically leaves our top 6 for SL likely to be:

Cook
Root
Bell
Ballance
Morgan
Stokes

and if they stick with Bairstow and him to the mix, it becomes the worst top 7 in memory.

Root isn't a test-class opener (jury still out on if he's a test class batsman), Bell will never be a number 3 so long as he's got a hole in is arse, Ballance looks like a Hick - flat track bully but can't handle anything fast and short, might be ok against SL/India in England but Aus, SA and even NZ/WI will probably eat him for breakfast, Morgan is also unproven at test level, and Stokes has had one series, making it a bit early to appoint him our saviour.

Add no viable spinner (if they've ditched KP they'll surely ditch Monty), an over-the hill attack leader in Anderson, and a post-Saker Finn being "unselectable" and the problems seriously mount up

 

[karolkarol]

For the first test my top 6 would be
Cook
Robson
Compton
Bell
Morgan
Stokes

Root needs to get some form back in county cricket early season to be in contention for the India series. Bowling wise now Flower is gone Hopefully Onions will get a long overdue run in the team with Anderson and Broad.

The lack of spinner is a worry though. Borthwick is not the answer.

 

[Lebanna]

basically leaves our top 6 for SL likely to be:

Cook
Root
Bell
Ballance
Morgan
Stokes

and if they stick with Bairstow and him to the mix, it becomes the worst top 7 in memory.

Root isn't a test-class opener (jury still out on if he's a test class batsman), Bell will never be a number 3 so long as he's got a hole in is arse, Ballance looks like a Hick - flat track bully but can't handle anything fast and short, might be ok against SL/India in England but Aus, SA and even NZ/WI will probably eat him for breakfast, Morgan is also unproven at test level, and Stokes has had one series, making it a bit early to appoint him our saviour.

Add no viable spinner (if they've ditched KP they'll surely ditch Monty), an over-the hill attack leader in Anderson, and a post-Saker Finn being "unselectable" and the problems seriously mount up

Generally agree with you blocker but a couple of things: if you can't judge Stokes then you can't judge Ballance either. Both have only a couple of games under their belts.

I would hope that the ECB go back on their decision and pick Compton to go at 3, this would give a chance for some stability to the top order. Also I hope they don't persist with Bairstow. If they want a replacement for Prior then they should probably be looking at Buttler at the moment. I don't know who would partner Cook but definitely not Root. I've not seen much of Robson so I don't know for sure but I hear he is a candidate for opening. So my top 7 would be something like:

Cook
Robson
Compton
Morgan
Bell
Ballance/Stokes/Root
Prior

 

[blockerdave]

it's not that i am saying you can't judge stokes, it's that i don't think you can annoint him saviour. especially as an all rounder, where you look at flintoff/botham who both had career batting averages in the 30s, albeit with lots of peaks and troughs, where their batting or bowling was up or down and the other discipline kept them in the side.

it was clear Ballance had difficulty with the short ball, he wasn't alone in that of course but it indicates to me that a 50FC average isn't the whole truth.

I can't see them going back to Compton, though it wouldn't be the worst thing. Robson will have to decide Aus or Eng, so I wouldn't be picking him yet. Say Chris Rogers retires after the SA series... does he go throw in his lot in a team on the up or a team sinking, likely with a huge turnover and uncertainty (given he would be cook's 4th post-strauss partner and none of whom were given long). i wouldn't be surprised if he went with Aus.

 

[cricket_icon]

it's not that i am saying you can't judge stokes, it's that i don't think you can annoint him saviour. especially as an all rounder, where you look at flintoff/botham who both had career batting averages in the 30s, albeit with lots of peaks and troughs, where their batting or bowling was up or down and the other discipline kept them in the side.

it was clear Ballance had difficulty with the short ball, he wasn't alone in that of course but it indicates to me that a 50FC average isn't the whole truth.

I can't see them going back to Compton, though it wouldn't be the worst thing. Robson will have to decide Aus or Eng, so I wouldn't be picking him yet. Say Chris Rogers retires after the SA series... does he go throw in his lot in a team on the up or a team sinking, likely with a huge turnover and uncertainty (given he would be cook's 4th post-strauss partner and none of whom were given long). i wouldn't be surprised if he went with Aus.

Can't declare Stokes a saviour yet but he has shown backbone against Australia and looks a good bet for the future.

With KP now gone, it may pave the way for a Morgan come back and I for one would agree with it.

 

[karolkarol]

Robson will have to decide Aus or Eng, so I wouldn't be picking him yet. Say Chris Rogers retires after the SA series... does he go throw in his lot in a team on the up or a team sinking, likely with a huge turnover and uncertainty (given he would be cook's 4th post-strauss partner and none of whom were given long). i wouldn't be surprised if he went with Aus.

All the talking Robson is doing indicates he is committed to playing for England. See the attached article.

Alan Gardner talks to Sam Robson about potentially playing for England | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

3 tons in his last 3 Lions/EPP matches won't do his reputation any harm.

Also, interestingly, I didn't realise that as an Aus U19 player he was a middle order leg spinning allrounder.

 

[nightprowler10]

Cook
Robson
Compton
Morgan
Bell
Ballance/Stokes/Root
Prior

The craziest part of this axing is highlighted here. You (ECB) are axing your best player with no clear replacement in sight.