England in Australia

[kodos]

Of course Warne and McGrath are one in a generation. No one in the modern game can replace Warne and once he does retire the gap between the rest of the world and Aus will get closer. Shows how much of a difference 1 player can make (as England know from yesterday).

 

[puddleduck]

I notice all the chaps I was arguing with a few pages back have remained nice and quiet on a day that Fletcher has come and said that selection is a group effort but the final decision is his AND FREDDIES!

I would like to say I hate to say I told you so, but bottom line is I don't so there

Wonder if any of you will now give Freddie the critisism he actually deserves, or yet again you will all try and pin all the blame on Fletcher :

 

[valvolux]

The question is, if Australia win the third test, will they go for a whitewash or lay back and see how the fringe players perform against quality international opposition?

They'd shoot for 5-0 without a doubt...these are no times for experimenting. They'll want to add the scars that will give them the leg up in 2009. Surely it won't finish 5-0, but if it did I'm not sure you'd ever see this English team recover.

I'm a bit worried the Aussies might be carrying on a little after this one though.....if England some how pinch Perth the Aussies will all of a sudden be back under serious pressure. It's the advantage of holding the urn. Would be sweet as to see them get it in Perth so I hope not.

Flintoff looked an exhausted man towards the end of the match. He looked well and truly defeated. He was in a state of panic and looked spooked.

I can see it now - to keep with the theme of playing undercooked players Fletcher will bring Vaughan in to replace Cook to open....a player whos preparation consists of getting toppled twice for under 10 by club cricketers.

 

[Punk_Sk8r]

its Urn not earn

anyway I though Fred'Ed said he wanted Giles int he squad ahead of Monty?

So I blame Giles for being there to be wanted more than Monty

 

[Cricket_60]

With the batting its all Pietersen atm

Collingwood has been just as good and possibly even better than KP. Bell has also produced a few good knocks.

 

[evertonfan]

I notice all the chaps I was arguing with a few pages back have remained nice and quiet on a day that Fletcher has come and said that selection is a group effort but the final decision is his AND FREDDIES!

I would like to say I hate to say I told you so, but bottom line is I don't so there

Wonder if any of you will now give Freddie the critisism he actually deserves, or yet again you will all try and pin all the blame on Fletcher :

Yeah well I told you so about the England defeat.

And Flintoff is just as much an idiot as Fletcher for picking Giles ahead of Panesar, but Fred's bowling makes up for his stupidity a bit. I guess I just lay all the blame on Fletcher out of spite, I just hate the fact that England's best spinner since Underwood is being kept out of the side by a bloody park bowler.

 

[puddleduck]

Yeah well I told you so about the England defeat.

And Flintoff is just as much an idiot as Fletcher for picking Giles ahead of Panesar, but Fred's bowling makes up for his stupidity a bit. I guess I just lay all the blame on Fletcher out of spite, I just hate the fact that England's best spinner since Underwood is being kept out of the side by a bloody park bowler.

So we're both right, and both miserable about it, something is definately wrong here

 

[Sureshot]

To be honest, I can't think of anyone...
Gilchrist used to be our man for such a job,
but M.Hussey has made that role his own now.

I doubt there's anyone who's as versatile as M.Hussey.
Wether he's opening the innings, at middle-order or a tail-ender,
he can do it, and does it well more often then not.

I can't think of a player (or batsmen) in the entire English side who's better,
and yet M.Hussey has had a shorter Test career then most of them.
Just when the Poms thought they had the wood on us after the previous
Ashes series, up pops Mr.Cricket (M.Hussey), and also the Glenn McGrath
clone - Stuart Clark (and they said we had no new worthy talent, lmao).

As good as Clark is and he has impressed me alot he's not exactly new talent is he?

thats what you get for stealing our urn! :

Australia won't make any changes for Perth me thinks, people will be calling for Martyn's head, but i dont think Watson is even fit yet and Marto is still a class act.
England first and foremost must dump Anderson hes the weak link (although so are Giles and Harmison). Thats the problem with this England team, too much left to too few. With the batting its all Pietersen atm, bowling it's Hoggard and Flintoff.

Colly and Bell have chipped in with the batting surely.

I agree with the bowling, picking two players with little or no cricket since their return from injuries would always bit us in the arse. It's why it was so vital to play Monty, because he was our best bowler this summer.

I notice all the chaps I was arguing with a few pages back have remained nice and quiet on a day that Fletcher has come and said that selection is a group effort but the final decision is his AND FREDDIES!

I would like to say I hate to say I told you so, but bottom line is I don't so there

Wonder if any of you will now give Freddie the critisism he actually deserves, or yet again you will all try and pin all the blame on Fletcher :

But what's to say Freddie is actually getting a choice? (I don't believe it but who knows).

I've criticised Fred, if not here then in another Ashes thread.

Particularly on Day 5, especially the field placements.

 

[puddleduck]

It's not like Freddie is a 12 year old schoolboy Sureshot, I don't think that Fletcher is running some kind of dictatorship wherein every player must do as they told at risk of being burned at the stake. He is a big lad, he is the captain, and as I said a lot, if he had wanted Panesar in the team, then Panasar would have been in the team. Fletcher isn't a moron, and if the captain feels he wants a certain player in the team, chances are he will give him that player. It's pretty much always been the case for England for the last decade or so that on away tours the coach and captain between them pick the side.

Yes I know you've been prepared to criticise Fred, I was more referring to the rest Matt and Andrew mostly, who seem determined to pin every bit of blame on Fletcher because they have some kind of personal hatred for a man that has a lot to do with England being the second best test side in the world and actually in possession of the Ashes for the first time in 20 odd years, even if it will be short-lived.

Fair enough his time may now be past, and we need someone with new ideas to take us through with some new players, but the way they show a complete lack of respect for a man that for the first time in my entire life of watching cricket has provided a competitive England team for a sustained period of time is fairly dissapointing to say the least.

 

[evertonfan]

Yes I know you've been prepared to criticise Fred, I was more referring to the rest Matt and Andrew mostly, who seem determined to pin every bit of blame on Fletcher because they have some kind of personal hatred for a man that has a lot to do with England being the second best test side in the world and actually in possession of the Ashes for the first time in 20 odd years, even if it will be short-lived.

I think that's a bit harsh on me. I have criticised Fletch for the Monty situation but that was more down to anger and rage at his omission. I dislike Fletch for more than just his loyalty to players, i've wanted him out of the set-up since the India tour. I don't like his obsession with 'multi-dimensional' players as I am a firm believer that if your top 7 isn't good enough to score runs, then you shouldn't be relying on the tail to cough up a few. His ODI credentials are unflatterng to say the least and I want England to be the best in the game in both formats, and that won't be obtained with Fletcher's negligence to ODI's, his obsession with all-rounders and his loyalty to certain players.

I'd also like to clear up that I do not hate Fletcher as a man, i'm sure he is a loveley person; It's his coaching which I hate.

 

[barmyarmy]

I think that Fletcher has taken us as far as he can and I also think that Flintoff defers to his instincts too much.
The biggest problem with England's second innings wasn't the fact they lost wickets to poor shots or that Warne and Lee bowled well, it was that England were so defensive in their mindset they were only scoring at 1/2 runs an over. Had the batsmen been told, play your normal game and put away the loose ones then we would have scored too many runs in the time for Aus to chase. The tactics we adopted gave Australia their best chance of winning the match.

I'm not one of the sack the coach the minute results begin to turn people and I congratulate Fletcher for all he has done for English cricket but we have to remember that we won the 2005 Ashes by being aggressive; by scaring the Aussies and putting them under pressure - not by making plan A go into our shell and defend. That was what made the display so abject for me; the sheer pointless unnecessaryness of it all.

I didn't want Flintoff as captain and my reasons are the same now as then. First of all I think that bowlers tend not to make good captains. In the field they have to think about their own games and can't take the broad overview that is needed in captaincy. Secondly I wondered whether the Kevin Keegan "if we wear our hearts on our sleeves and remember that we're English everything will be alright" approach was really appropriate. Thirdly I thought that, as a player with very little experience of captaincy, he would defer to Fletcher and let his instincts be over-ruled. It was Flintoff who captained a team who couldn't bowl Sri Lanka out; it was Strauss who led the team to a remarkable series victory over a good Pakistan team. How? By making sure we took 20 wickets.

Captaincy affects Flintoff's batting and bowling and, as such, he is currently a shadow of himself. If we add that to the lack of control and edge the England attack have provided and we can see why pressure is constantly being put onto the batsmen; pressure I don't totally blame them for succombing to.

The decision to bat negatively on day 5 rested with Fletcher and with Flintoff but had Fletcher's finger marks all over it. This is the man who is so concerned with the length of his batting lineup he would, still, rather play a man who scores 20's even though his bowling is no longer international standard. The simple truth is that the aim of a test match isn't to avoid losing; it's to win and Fletcher seems to have forgotten that. Sadly he and Flintoff have gone so far down this path that there seems little hope, even now, that England will learn the lessons they need to from Brisbane and Adelaide and rectify things for Perth. The glib excuses and refusal to see the root of the problem was what I was most depressed about listening to Flintoff after the match. Under Fletcher's guidance he has become so sophorific in his post-match interviews that he might as well let Fletcher do them.
We've already kissed the Ashes goodbye and if we continue to persist with the twins ideas of balance and defensive-mindedness we might well be looking at 5 zip.

I'm depressed, I'm angry, I feel this was totally avoidable and I blame Fletcher and Flintoff for ruining one of the most eagerly anticipated series in history.

 

[Stephen Bailey]

I was also a Strauss supporter. Not only did he do a fantastic job, but he also batted responsibly and never looked like he had the weight of the world on his shoulders.

 

[evertonfan]

I agree Stevie; Although Fred acheived a brilliant draw in the India series, his disapointing tie with Sri Lanka was brushed under the carpet. Strauss captained us to a 2(3) - 0 victory over Pakistan in the Test series and also, more remarkably, captained us to a 2-2 draw against one of the best ODI teams in the world. Fair enough, he got hammered 5-0 against Sri Lanka, but it wasn't him bowling all the wides was it?

 

[nightprowler10]

Well I haven't seen Freddie captain to be honest, but Strauss certainly did a bang up job after the first test against us. England had a chance and a half to win the first test had he not been so defensive, but I've seen captains do worse.

 

[Sureshot]

It's not like Freddie is a 12 year old schoolboy Sureshot, I don't think that Fletcher is running some kind of dictatorship wherein every player must do as they told at risk of being burned at the stake. He is a big lad, he is the captain, and as I said a lot, if he had wanted Panesar in the team, then Panasar would have been in the team. Fletcher isn't a moron, and if the captain feels he wants a certain player in the team, chances are he will give him that player. It's pretty much always been the case for England for the last decade or so that on away tours the coach and captain between them pick the side.

Yes I know you've been prepared to criticise Fred, I was more referring to the rest Matt and Andrew mostly, who seem determined to pin every bit of blame on Fletcher because they have some kind of personal hatred for a man that has a lot to do with England being the second best test side in the world and actually in possession of the Ashes for the first time in 20 odd years, even if it will be short-lived.

Fair enough his time may now be past, and we need someone with new ideas to take us through with some new players, but the way they show a complete lack of respect for a man that for the first time in my entire life of watching cricket has provided a competitive England team for a sustained period of time is fairly dissapointing to say the least.

At the end of the day Fletcher is the man responsible for things that go wrong, just like how the manager of a football team is. Maybe not as much input.

Who has more say the coach of 7 years or the stand in captain?