England In India - October 2011/12

1. If Trott is injured. They can keep Bresnan and move him up to # 7 and recall Tremlett. 4 quicks + Swann would just bury INDIA's batsmen.

2. If they want to stick with the successful 4 bowlers strategy. Bring in Hildreth for Trott , then if they feel conditions at Edgbaston will again be pace bowler friendly. Instead of having to drop Bresnan, they can for the 1st time drop Swann and go for an all-pace attack in a horses for courses selection.

No way on number 1. I've seen a few suggesting it but it really wouldn't have any logic behind it. England have demolished India when bowling with four (hell even three Swann's featured so little) so five seems like an unneeded luxury. We have collapsed once this series even though batting hasn't been a problem either so I'd go with Taylor, he's miles favourite for a call up as well on the back of his Lions performances and the fact they've given him captaincy. That is if Trott is injured.

Wouldn't drop Swann just incase there is a bit of spin in the pitch and again, its not like we need another seamer as things stand.

I'd go:

Strauss
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Morgan
Taylor
Prior
Bresnan (no need to rush Tremlett back in we don't want him going down Khan style)
Broad
Swann
Anderson

Still have massive reservations on Morgan though I shan't lie although he did good in the last match the bowling was absolutely dreadful during his innings.

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Might actually bring Taylor in ahead of Morgan. Just so he can come in to solodify things if we collapse while keeping Morgan down to score quickly with Prior and the tail. The term tail used extremely lightly.
 
Hussain certainly was right in saying this is one of the best English sides going around. The lower order depth they have is ridiculous when you have Anderson the guy never to have made a duck coming in at 11. Bresnan is such a handy player to have, his bowling will never let you down and he always seems to nag a wicket or two and his batting is a bonus.
 
India looked like a side who just gave up.

And it's hard to blame them. Ishant and PK have been bowled into the ground, this was their fifth test in 6 weeks. PK's bowling no faster than MSD did and Ishant's bowling action is giving up on him and he was spraying almost everything down leg at the second innings in Trent Bridge. They tried but they had nothing left in the tank to give.

And then Harbhajan just failed to show up. Sure the pitch had nothing in it for spinners, but he's played nearly 100 Test matches, if you can't get wickets then atleast you could keep the runs down? He bowled tripe at Lords when the team needed him, and then went off injured (though still fit enough to bash 46 runs) after bowling 9 useless overs leaving India another bowler short.

Sreesanth...had both his good and bad days in the same match. And despite how good his good days are, you feel it's just not worth it for when Sree loses his rhythm. He has no control, it seems like he either clicks or he doesn't. And when he doesn't, it leaves the side another bowler short, because he bleeds so many runs.

Bowling and fielding with such a toothless attack...India never stood a chance. Their have been moments and spells of brilliance but they have been sustained since the bowlers don't have the fitness or skill required, and when they weren't bowling fire they were leaking runs all over the place. Fielding's been dreadful, most of the side is either old or exhausted. VVS, Dravid, Sachin old and PK, Ishant, Raina, Bhajji, MSD exhausted. Yuvi's been alright, Sree's been awful in the field and Mukund not so good either.

But what's worse is that they just seem mentally fatigued. Raina, Harbhajan, PK, Ishant and MSD have played the World Cup, IPL and West Indies tour. You could sense they've just given up, they're too tired. MSD sets defensive fields rapidly, Ishant's bowling loses bite quickly, Bhajji's been garbage, Raina's still in IPL mode. PK has bowled his heart out, but the fact is when the ball isn't swinging he's far less of a threat.

Mukund, Yuvraj and Raina have been worked over and exposed. They don't have the skill. And going by how they played, they don't have the temperament either. For Mukund maybe it's a matter of time, but surely Yuvraj and Raina shouldn't be persisted with for much longer? Pujara, Kohli are better prospects, and the likes of Rayudu, Pandey, Manoj Tiwary all deserve a shot too.


It's just overall bad planning and preparation from the BCCI. Zak came in slightly undercooked, the whole side didn't have enough time to adjust to the conditions, Sehwag played the IPL in pain instead of getting surgery right after the World Cup to ensure he'd be available for this whole tour. Praveen and Ishant are going to break down if we keep bowling them at this rate, and picking Raina and Yuvraj for a tour in conditions where there will be bounce and swing over someone like Kohli was not smart. It was unfortunate Pujara got injured, otherwise we might have seen him here.


Having bitched about all that though, England were amazing. Such amazing bowling attack they've got here, and with a batting lineup almost completely in form, it's remarkable. Cook and Strauss have done next to nothing yet Bell, Trott, KP and Prior have made up for it. Heck even Morgan's been useless but Broad and now Bresnan have been in the runs too. India just seem deflated about 60 overs bowling into each innings, and without Harbhajan doing anything, seem to have no idea what to do with the old ball (as angryangy said), which is what England's lower-middle order has cashed in.

England are far from unbeatable, 3 batsmen in the top 7 not getting runs and a bit shabby in the slips, but despite that they have wayyy outclassed India. Dravid and VVS have batted extremely well but have gotten some deliveries just too good for even them, while Sachin really should be picking his shots better than he has so far.


And about MSD's batting...he's never had the technique for such conditions, but what he lacked in that he made up for in grit and temperament. Those seem to have deserted him. And he's not coming out for the press conferences. He just seems a tired, defeated man. He seems like he's given up. And I don't blame him. The poor man needs a break after all the cricket he's been playing.
 
Even though the Indians have had a tough schedule, they still aren't helped by the fact they are so unfit, probably the most unfit team in international cricket. Cricket has changed now and you cant just rely on your cricket skills you need to be pretty athletic as well. Compared with England in every department they're nowhere close.
 
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Good Post!

India looked like a side who just gave up.

And it's hard to blame them. Ishant and PK have been bowled into the ground, this was their fifth test in 6 weeks. PK's bowling no faster than MSD did and Ishant's bowling action is giving up on him and he was spraying almost everything down leg at the second innings in Trent Bridge. They tried but they had nothing left in the tank to give.

And then Harbhajan just failed to show up. Sure the pitch had nothing in it for spinners, but he's played nearly 100 Test matches, if you can't get wickets then atleast you could keep the runs down? He bowled tripe at Lords when the team needed him, and then went off injured (though still fit enough to bash 46 runs) after bowling 9 useless overs leaving India another bowler short.

Sreesanth...had both his good and bad days in the same match. And despite how good his good days are, you feel it's just not worth it for when Sree loses his rhythm. He has no control, it seems like he either clicks or he doesn't. And when he doesn't, it leaves the side another bowler short, because he bleeds so many runs.

Bowling and fielding with such a toothless attack...India never stood a chance. Their have been moments and spells of brilliance but they have been sustained since the bowlers don't have the fitness or skill required, and when they weren't bowling fire they were leaking runs all over the place. Fielding's been dreadful, most of the side is either old or exhausted. VVS, Dravid, Sachin old and PK, Ishant, Raina, Bhajji, MSD exhausted. Yuvi's been alright, Sree's been awful in the field and Mukund not so good either.

But what's worse is that they just seem mentally fatigued. Raina, Harbhajan, PK, Ishant and MSD have played the World Cup, IPL and West Indies tour. You could sense they've just given up, they're too tired. MSD sets defensive fields rapidly, Ishant's bowling loses bite quickly, Bhajji's been garbage, Raina's still in IPL mode. PK has bowled his heart out, but the fact is when the ball isn't swinging he's far less of a threat.

Mukund, Yuvraj and Raina have been worked over and exposed. They don't have the skill. And going by how they played, they don't have the temperament either. For Mukund maybe it's a matter of time, but surely Yuvraj and Raina shouldn't be persisted with for much longer? Pujara, Kohli are better prospects, and the likes of Rayudu, Pandey, Manoj Tiwary all deserve a shot too.


It's just overall bad planning and preparation from the BCCI. Zak came in slightly undercooked, the whole side didn't have enough time to adjust to the conditions, Sehwag played the IPL in pain instead of getting surgery right after the World Cup to ensure he'd be available for this whole tour. Praveen and Ishant are going to break down if we keep bowling them at this rate, and picking Raina and Yuvraj for a tour in conditions where there will be bounce and swing over someone like Kohli was not smart. It was unfortunate Pujara got injured, otherwise we might have seen him here.


Having bitched about all that though, England were amazing. Such amazing bowling attack they've got here, and with a batting lineup almost completely in form, it's remarkable. Cook and Strauss have done next to nothing yet Bell, Trott, KP and Prior have made up for it. Heck even Morgan's been useless but Broad and now Bresnan have been in the runs too. India just seem deflated about 60 overs bowling into each innings, and without Harbhajan doing anything, seem to have no idea what to do with the old ball (as angryangy said), which is what England's lower-middle order has cashed in.

England are far from unbeatable, 3 batsmen in the top 7 not getting runs and a bit shabby in the slips, but despite that they have wayyy outclassed India. Dravid and VVS have batted extremely well but have gotten some deliveries just too good for even them, while Sachin really should be picking his shots better than he has so far.


And about MSD's batting...he's never had the technique for such conditions, but what he lacked in that he made up for in grit and temperament. Those seem to have deserted him. And he's not coming out for the press conferences. He just seems a tired, defeated man. He seems like he's given up. And I don't blame him. The poor man needs a break after all the cricket he's been playing.

Good Post! England is amazing. India is very tired. Munaf and Nehra bowled well in the world cup. Would have bowled even better here. These two bowlers won the World Cup for India, they should have played here.

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Maybe we could persuade South Africa to come over and play the final two tests. Give us a proper match ;)

In all seriousness India gave up way too easily in this game. Hopefully with Sehwag and Zaheer in the side they can put up a proper fight at Edgebaston.

If Trott is out the 3rd test I'd recall Tremlett and play 4 quicks. It's not like we don't bat deep enough.

Why are the English fans being so mean to us? England played well and won two tests. Be gracious in victory.

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Speaking as an England fan, I hope we recover from the injuries that have blighted us in this match. Trott and Swann are two of our best players, who were affected by injury, so couldn't perform as well as we all know they can. Just as well the rest were good enough to see off this poor side we're playing.

England just won two tests OK. Can't believe the arrogance some fans are showing.
 
Times view: India don't deserve to be No.1 Test side in the world - The Times of India

Exactly as i always said and this coming from an Indian website. India are being classed # 1 because of the ranking system which is faulty. If we never had a ranking system no one would be calling India #1, as much as England IMO shouldn't be called # 1 just yet, since they still need to be beat S Africa home and away IMO.

Since Australia's decline after the 2007 Ashes, South Africa and India have been the two equal best test teams when it comes to series victories since then. And thats solidified by the fact that both those sides drew three (3) series with each in the last couple years.

England demolition of India means that England are now better than India, but as aforementioned, they still need to tackle the S Africans & beat them, along with winning in IND and SRI before they can 100% call themselves the # 1 test side IMO.

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No way on number 1. I've seen a few suggesting it but it really wouldn't have any logic behind it. England have demolished India when bowling with four (hell even three Swann's featured so little) so five seems like an unneeded luxury. We have collapsed once this series even though batting hasn't been a problem either so I'd go with Taylor, he's miles favourite for a call up as well on the back of his Lions performances and the fact they've given him captaincy. That is if Trott is injured.

Wouldn't drop Swann just incase there is a bit of spin in the pitch and again, its not like we need another seamer as things stand.

I'd go:

Strauss
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Morgan
Taylor
Prior
Bresnan (no need to rush Tremlett back in we don't want him going down Khan style)
Broad
Swann
Anderson

Still have massive reservations on Morgan though I shan't lie although he did good in the last match the bowling was absolutely dreadful during his innings.

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Might actually bring Taylor in ahead of Morgan. Just so he can come in to solodify things if we collapse while keeping Morgan down to score quickly with Prior and the tail. The term tail used extremely lightly.

Dont disagree, wouldn't mind if this line-up played as well, should still result in a victory.
 
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No way on number 1. I've seen a few suggesting it but it really wouldn't have any logic behind it. England have demolished India when bowling with four (hell even three Swann's featured so little) so five seems like an unneeded luxury. We have collapsed once this series even though batting hasn't been a problem either so I'd go with Taylor, he's miles favourite for a call up as well on the back of his Lions performances and the fact they've given him captaincy. That is if Trott is injured.

Wouldn't drop Swann just incase there is a bit of spin in the pitch and again, its not like we need another seamer as things stand.

re Swann, I think he is just suffering because the pitches aren't going to give him huge help and the Indians are so used to playing spin that any past effectiveness will be considerably lessened.

re Swann, I think he is just suffering because the pitches aren't going to give him huge help and the Indians are so used to playing spin that any past effectiveness will be considerably lessened.


I think the danger is getting carried away, assuming because Bresnan, Broad and Prior in particular have scored runs that they can somehow be relied on to score runs every time - they can't. They have 531 runs between them this series already, but even form batsmen have off days so form middle-lower order players are more than capable of failing - and as easily all at the same time as top order batsmen.

Big NO to five bowlers, the theory is cr ap anyway and do we need five? Dropping Swann might be an option, 2 wkts @ 105.50 suggests he is a passenger this series and four seamers might fare better, but it isn't like we haven't bowled the Indians out for under 300 EVERY INNINGS without a major contribution from one of the quartet. Swann's career average against the Indians is 52.70, I'd consider either bringing in Panesar as a match winning threat, or a seamer. But Panesar, like Swann, averages over 50 against India, might just be spinners aren't a worthwhile threat to India even if we (English) like "balance" and a spinner "to take the workload off the seamers"

And don't forget he plays all the time, and had a blow to his hand, so a rest might do the world of good. Just load the dice in favour of seamers, the groundsmen making it do plenty, OR just flatten the pitches for draws and secure a 2-0 series win.

Still have massive reservations on Morgan though I shan't lie although he did although he did good in the last match the bowling was absolutely dreadful during his innings ----------

Might actually bring Taylor in ahead of Morgan. Just so he can come in to solodify things if we collapse while keeping Morgan down to score quickly with Prior and the tail. The term tail used extremely lightly.

I had reservations about Morgan when picked, an ODI player and that is all in my book. He averages just 34.20 in Tests, one hundred in 16 innings and that against a weak Pakistan. That 130 makes up 1/4 of his career runs, I fear he will batter bowling attacks that offer little. He did ok against Bangladesh, made his 130 then did nothing for the rest of the Pakistan series, helped himself to some 50s against a Sri Lankan attack with no Murali or Malinga and has only scored runs against Indian when they gave up. Morgan was 21no at tea, definitely not run out (!), and added the bulk of his runs (70%) after tea when India conceded near 200 runs in the session and some reckon had lost all motivation. England went from 254/3 to 544 and then bowled India all out for 158, from parity at tea to one sided to say the least

I maintain my advocation of England playing two teams, or at least 7+ ODI 'specialists' so the Test players get a breather. Might India not be suffering from fatigue? Tendulkar, Dhoni, Raina, Yuvraj, Harbhajan, Zahir, Gambir and Sreesanth all played in the WC final and all eight have played this series, two injured already. Isn't Sehway (9) injured and joining the party (definitely no pun there) and Patel (10) in the party as well?

I liked the old days of the one dayers before the Tests, you could try players out for the Test team and not just throw them in at the deep end. I guess back then ODIs were more leisurely, but that's more the reason to keep the two as separate as possible.
 
The major difference for me is that depth of the two sides. England can lose, what many call Englands lead strike bowler and his replacement comes in and takes 5 and scores 90 in just two innings. India lose their best bowler and suddenly their attack looks alot more deflated, another of bowlers could still get injured and his replacement will come in and take wickets too (an possibly score runs depending on who).

I think it was Nasser who said that the England batting line up is just relentless. If the top order don't get you, then the lower order will and of the top order do fire then the lower order will just beat you to submission. In that line up, there is basically 7 batsman, 2 all rounders, Swann and a guy who just doesn't get ducks. (He actually does have 1, Syl).

With Gambhir, ZK and Sehwag back for the next test, India should do a lot better and might give them that mental lift but Sehwag could be very hit or miss. FTB.
 
One can have reservations about Morgan for sure. But calling the hundred he scored vs Pakistan last year vs Asif/Aamir/Gul as one vs a weak attack is certainly a highly misinformed statement.
 
Big NO to five bowlers, the theory is cr ap anyway and do we need five? Dropping Swann might be an option, 2 wkts @ 105.50 suggests he is a passenger this series and four seamers might fare better, but it isn't like we haven't bowled the Indians out for under 300 EVERY INNINGS without a major contribution from one of the quartet. Swann's career average against the Indians is 52.70, I'd consider either bringing in Panesar as a match winning threat, or a seamer. But Panesar, like Swann, averages over 50 against India, might just be spinners aren't a worthwhile threat to India even if we (English) like "balance" and a spinner "to take the workload off the seamers"

Although i agree given the form of some of the top 6 batsmen in Strauss, Cook, Morgan means that picking 5 bowlers against a like Zaheer Khan rejuvenated IND bowling attack may be too risky.

However as the England team continues to develop, especially with regards to the batting abilities of Bresnan and Broad. The option of 5 bowlers will become a serious option.

Deep down the search for a the next Flintoff is still quietly going on although the 4-bowler strategy is working and i can certainly see this winter when ENG go to India and SRI on some of those flat pitches, that such a option could be tried. Even Andrew McGlashan has highlighted this likely fact:

England v India: Robust England are beginning to develop an aura | Cricket Features | England v India 2011 | ESPN Cricinfo

quote said:
It would be cruel to leave him out, but if Tremlett is fit then the only way Bresnan plays is if England finally bite the bullet over a five-man attack. Now, though, is as good a time as ever to try. Jonathan Trott's injury could give them the perfect window. Bresnan and Broad are scoring runs, while Matt Prior is in the form of his life.

Clearly, England's current balance is serving them well and in English conditions there is no pressing need for a fifth bowler but in the coming months and years they will come across some flat pitches. It feels as though the next level for this team is to at least know they can play with a different balance even if it is only used on occasions rather than as the norm. Still, if Trott is fit they are unlikely to make that call in this series.

And don't forget he plays all the time, and had a blow to his hand, so a rest might do the world of good. Just load the dice in favour of seamers, the groundsmen making it do plenty, OR just flatten the pitches for draws and secure a 2-0 series win.

Also even if one were to consider it, no way would i bring in Panesar for Swann. India batsmen play spin well etc, but Swann hasn't exactly got a turner to bowl on to really test the IND batsmen in this series.

Panesar is a joker and shouldn't be anywhere near the ENG test set-up anymore, the IND batsmen would cart him - im sure you haven't forgotten 2007. These days the next best possible spinner behind Swann is young Danny Briggs

Going back to the 5 bowler/all pace attack talk. Well the conditions have been seam bowler friendly and although the main 3 quicks is doing the job - having a 4th is not overkill - its just a simple "horses for courses" selection. South Africa did it all the time in the 90s when they had a alot of quick bowling options, one bouncy/seaming home pitches.
 
I don't know what's worse: the batting, the bowling or fielding? I think India need to sure up the batting. That lower order is pathetic. Irfan Pathan anyone :p But congrats to England. They are starting to look like Australia of old... ofcourse consistency is needed. I think Morgan's place is safe for the next test. I would go ahead with Bresnan. Let Tremlett cool his heals.
India need Zak man. I think Sehwag's influence is starting to show. I won't say India will win with Sehwag and Zak but there is a loss of quality in all departments.
 
What a horrible showing by the soon to be dethroned, World No. 1 test team. India were toothless and were not even trying to make a match of it. It will be a miracle if India can pull back one from here. Pakistan did it last year with a very weak batting line up. If it was not for those three bastards, Pakistan would have done even better. India need someone to inspire them come the third test. Zaheer and Sehwag would be the men best suited for that job.
England are unstoppable at the moment. Their batting and bowling is unparalleled. They bat right to number 9 and their bowling has got fire and skill. 4-0 seems to be very probable atm.
 
I think England are going a bit over the top with their reactions. India does not become an overnight pathetic side just because we lost 2 games. England have`nt beaten us in a series since Ganguly and Dravid debuted at Lords in 1996. Yes, they have been quite unrelenting in this series and India more than had a couple of chances in this series to finish off England. Once at Lords and definitely at Trent Bridge. Had we had a better fourth bowler other than Bhajji, we could have finished off the English challenge at Notthingham. If you look at the matches apart from just the scorelines, you will find that England could have easily gone down if India knew how to finish them off which is unfortunately where Zak makes a huge difference.

England were 50ish for 5 at Lords and 100ish for 8 at Trent Bridge in consecutive innings. The English batting has been under as much pressure as the Indian one. Just that India have been batting last and have the scoreboard pressure as well in both the matches.

Having said that, if we have seaming conditions at Birmingham and if we have Zak fit and field a 4-seam attack, I still back us to win at Birmingham. England have been the better side but this is still not done yet.
 
‎"We came straight from the Caribbean and didn't have time to play more than one (practice) game," says Dhoni. Do you agree with Indian captain?

My take:
I do n't agree with that one.No this is a silly reason to say a loss because of another loss. Please Captain really don't give such reasons like a school boy. Overall a team effort was really missing in Indian team when compared with England.Even bowlers like broad and bre...snan are batting stupendously. So what has happen. India played well before as the games were almost played at home. Now region changes and tempo will also change. Turn around of things happen like these. So a magical thing like harry's wand must happen to save India to No 1 spot
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