England Team Discussion

[wasteyouryouth]

Those players all learned their stuff playing Pro40 cricket in front of weekend and summer holiday crowds

Yeah I remember Jarrod Kimber talking about how Pro40 cricket shaped the more aggressive approach of all those players.

 

[Aislabie]

It's immediate aftermath XI time:

1. Ben Duckett
2. Jos Buttler
3. Joe Root
4. Sam Hain
5. Jacob Bethell
6. Paul Walter
7. Liam Livingstone
8. Brydon Carse
9. Adil Rashid, or Rehan if he retires
10. Jofra Archer or Mark Wood
11. Reece Topley

 

[pillowprocter]

Adil Rashid, or Rehan if he retires

any rumours circling about?

 

[Supreme General]

1. Duckett
2. Bethell
3. Brook
4. Hain
5. J Smith
6. Mousley
7. Watler
8. Carse
9. Rehan/Hartley
10. Jofra
11. Mahmood

 

[pillowprocter]

It's immediate aftermath XI time:

1. Ben Duckett
2. Jos Buttler
3. Joe Root
4. Sam Hain
5. Jacob Bethell
6. Paul Walter
7. Liam Livingstone
8. Brydon Carse
9. Adil Rashid, or Rehan if he retires
10. Jofra Archer or Mark Wood
11. Reece Topley

I actually didn't immediately track that you omitted Brook, could you go more in-depth into that one? Probably the most controversial decision you've made there

1. Duckett
2. Bethell
3. Brook
4. Hain
5. J Smith
6. Mousley
7. Watler
8. Carse
9. Rehan/Hartley
10. Jofra
11. Mahmood

Root has been pretty good, no?

 

[ddrap14]

1. Duckett
2. Bethell
3. Brook
4. Hain
5. J Smith
6. Mousley
7. Watler
8. Carse
9. Rehan/Hartley
10. Jofra
11. Mahmood

Unless you're forecasting a retirement, dropping the only guy who kept you in contention in that game is very bold

 

[Aislabie]

any rumours circling about?

It's mostly just that his arm is borderline falling off. He'll only keep going if he's confident that that blue sports duct tape will keep it attached until then.

I actually didn't immediately track that you omitted Brook, could you go more in-depth into that one? Probably the most controversial decision you've made there

He's got an exceptionally low running strike rate (that is, his strike rate off non-boundary balls) of 48 - and most of those are coming from failed boundary attempts rather than from strike rotation. Compare that to Joe Root, who has a running strike rate of over 60 and with much greater control and you start to see the problem. This is fundamentally why Brook is so awful against spin in ODI cricket.

Livingstone is similar (RSR only 53.37), but he is at least in a role where his sole job is to biff boundaries in a high-impact, late-innings capacity.

So I guess I'd say the reason I've dropped Brook is because he's a bad one-day cricketer at present.

 

[Supreme General]

Unless you're forecasting a retirement, dropping the only guy who kept you in contention in that game is very bold

I’m more trying to keep him protected for the test team really. Every time Root goes big in a game of late he cramps up real bad and his back causes him problems. If he’s doing it in two formats it could be quite a problem. It’s probably not a complete coincidence that when he was not part of the ODI for large stretches, he became reached new heights in tests.

 

[zakcrawley76]

It's mostly just that his arm is borderline falling off. He'll only keep going if he's confident that that blue sports duct tape will keep it attached until then.


He's got an exceptionally low running strike rate (that is, his strike rate off non-boundary balls) of 48 - and most of those are coming from failed boundary attempts rather than from strike rotation. Compare that to Joe Root, who has a running strike rate of over 60 and with much greater control and you start to see the problem. This is fundamentally why Brook is so awful against spin in ODI cricket.

Livingstone is similar (RSR only 53.37), but he is at least in a role where his sole job is to biff boundaries in a high-impact, late-innings capacity.

So I guess I'd say the reason I've dropped Brook is because he's a bad one-day cricketer at present.

Dropping Brook & keeping Livingstone is absolutely nuts.

 

[wasteyouryouth]

I've said this before but we don't have the players we had from 2015-19. Skillwise, we aren't far off, but they are not playing at that standard. Consistency of selection is a problem, lack of experience playing regular, good standard one day cricket for the new, younger players is an issue. Not having an all rounder of the quality of Ben Stokes is a problem (no sh!t). England took ODI cricket seriously for four years and were excellent. It's just back to normal and not caring about it, domestically and internationally. Except, when we were crap at it we still had 2, 3 (4 in the 90s) one day tournaments that most players would at least come through as youngsters.

I'd bin most of the top 7.

Duckett - I'd make him captain
Salt - Good for about 3 overs. In the bin.
Smith - looks crap at 3. In the bin.
Root - can do what he wants.
Brook - clearly doesn't work in the ODI cricket at the moment. I'd let him open with Duckett or bin him.
Buttler - in the bin. A great player between 2015-2019 just does not have the captaincy chops in the same way Morgan did IMO. The killer instinct he had as a batter in 15-19 seems to have gone, the lack of a good platform from the top 3 and a reliable middle order hasn't helped him in that regard.
Livingstone - in the side because he bowls well in my opinion.
JOverton - I wouldn't write him off entirely, we could potentially get a good 3rd/4th bowler who can add runs at the end out of him. But that makes it sound easy when Plunkett was an excellent bowler who had 15/16 years of List A behind him when we won in 2019. JOverton averages less than 4 matches a year in a 12 year career.
Archer - looks so inconsistent. Can't deny his talent but I'd rather he focussed on the possibility of playing test cricket in Australia.
Rashid - can do what he wants, preferably clone himself into a younger version
Wood - stick to test cricket for now

I do still think we binned of Jason Roy as an ODI cricketer too soon. Only to then dump his replacement who had probably been our most consistent player. Probably Bairstow was unlucky too. They're both younger than Rohit or Kohli and India has stuck by them. As openers they consistently laid the foundations, along with Root at 3, for the middle order.

 

[pillowprocter]

Duckett - I'd make him captain

the press conferences will be legendary

 

[wasteyouryouth]

the press conferences will be legendary

Exactly. Baz and Ben would get under everyone's skin.

 

[ddrap14]

Smith - looks crap at 3. In the bin.

Bit harsh. If you're binning Buttler, he's got to stick (albeit DEFINITELY at a lower spot). Otherwise Duckett will be opening, keeping, and captaining, and that's an easy way to not get the best out of him

 

[Supreme General]

Bit harsh. If you're binning Buttler, he's got to stick (albeit DEFINITELY at a lower spot). Otherwise Duckett will be opening, keeping, and captaining, and that's an easy way to not get the best out of him

Tom Banton could always come in and keep but I do agree Jamie Smith should probably stay just not at no.3.

I do still think we binned of Jason Roy as an ODI cricketer too soon. Only to then dump his replacement who had probably been our most consistent player. Probably Bairstow was unlucky too. They're both younger than Rohit or Kohli and India has stuck by them. As openers they consistently laid the foundations, along with Root at 3, for the middle order.

At their peak RoyStow was one of the best if not the best ODI opening combinations of all time. Thing was their peak had well gone. Roy across both T20 and ODI was so wildly inconsistent, it was boom or bust for like the last 2-3 years of his England career. Bairstow was less boom but also less bust apart from his leg which after he broke it, he’s been a shadow of the greatness he had managed to recapture shown during 2022. Dawid Malan yes was an amazing white cricketer but he also internationally retired half a year afterwards so he didn’t really have too much left in the tank to give but he was far too wildly criticised and not given the credit he truly deserved when he was playing, he was an awesome player to watch just not the icon box-office player people tried to force/wanted him to be.

 

[Aislabie]

Dropping Brook & keeping Livingstone is absolutely nuts.

Hilarious take.

Brook and Livingstone fit into completely different parts of the team so keeping or binning one is completely unrelated to the other. Brook's role is to make big scores and play the situation the way Eoin Morgan used to: he isn't capable of doing so right now, so get him gone and replace him with someone (Hain) who can.

Livingstone is a role player who's supposed to hit boundaries in the last 10 overs and be a stock bowler in a six-man bowling attack. He's not doing especially well recently, but it's also not one where I can think of such obvious replacements. I could see the argument for a Jacks, Mousley, SCurran or even Saif Zaib in that same role and I'd not be against them being tried.

Duckett - I'd make him captain

I personally would not do this, based mostly off alleged exploits that have gone down in Northants folklore.

Salt - Good for about 3 overs. In the bin.

I really want to like Salt but agree that he's not managing his role at all. I also binned him.

Smith - looks crap at 3. In the bin.

Talk about a hospital pass. Poor bloke got thrown straight under the bus as soon as they picked him at 3.

Root - can do what he wants.

Ideally what he wants to do will be play every game batting 3. He's only allowed to bat 4 if Hain bats 3.

Brook - clearly doesn't work in the ODI cricket at the moment. I'd let him open with Duckett or bin him.

Just bin him, but I do see your point. He's never learned how to play one-day cricket properly.

Buttler - in the bin. A great player between 2015-2019 just does not have the captaincy chops in the same way Morgan did IMO. The killer instinct he had as a batter in 15-19 seems to have gone, the lack of a good platform from the top 3 and a reliable middle order hasn't helped him in that regard.

This is the most controversial take for me - but at the same time I also wouldn't keep him in the same role. It does also feel like he's living off five-year-old hype.

Livingstone - in the side because he bowls well in my opinion.

Yeah, he's a role player. You only bin him off if you can fill his role.

At their peak RoyStow was one of the best if not the best ODI opening combinations of all time. Thing was their peak had well gone. Roy across both T20 and ODI was so wildly inconsistent, it was boom or bust for like the last 2-3 years of his England career.

Yeah, the nostalgia for Roystow was understandable even though they were pretty done by the time they were moved on from. The concerning thing here though is that of the replacements only Duckett has been any kind of upgrade and you do still need two openers.

Apart from...

Dawid Malan yes was an amazing white cricketer but he also internationally retired half a year afterwards so he didn’t really have too much left in the tank to give but he was far too wildly criticised and not given the credit he truly deserved when he was playing, he was an awesome player to watch just not the icon box-office player people tried to force/wanted him to be.

Dawid Malan was harshly judged and Malan-Duckett would have absolutely paid the bills.