England tour to South Africa December 2015/February 2016

[stefan]

Mike Atherton spoke in commentary about the fact that the SA public have very high expectations as they are world number 1, but he feels as though they probably aren't the world's best side now. So therefore who is the best test team in the world? Or are there 4/5 teams at about the same level?

That was actually HD Ackerman that said that. Atheron & Wessels were on with him at the time.

Personally don't think anyone can claim to be the best atm. India gets rolled away from home, england get it handed to them away from home in spinning, SA can't buy a run atm the moment & Aus can't play in swinging or spinning conditions away from home.

 

[MUFC1987]

Root and Taylor have taken absolutely no risks in this partnership and the scoring rate is healthy. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Compton being in the team, but he has to find a way, especially in the second innings, to rotate the strike more frequently.

Well first things first, it's a tricky pitch, so runs are vital. No point trying to be flash and score quickly and getting out, when we need the runs.

But let's say the pitch was a good one, is it not a bit harsh to expect someone in his comeback match to be more expansive? Compton is back in the team because of what he has done at County level. It stands to reason that when he comes back into the team he's going to feel under pressure to get runs. So how is he going to do that? He's going to do it in his natural way. Once he feels more comfortable, he may well get more expansive. But to be critical of him in his first match back (not to mention in a relatively low scoring game) is insanely harsh.

It's a bit like Hales. It's his Test debut. Not everyone comes in and scores tons straight away. He deserves a chance and for me, a chance is a lot more than one match. The talk of Compton opening and replacing Hales almost straight away is also insane, in my opinion.

Onto Moeen. Good to see him getting some wickets. It was always going to take him some time to get back to rhythm, so it's no surprise to me that he got attacked early on. But good to see that he's come back and taken a few. All in all, we've had a great day. Hopefully we can convert this into a Test win.

 

[bigred]

Pakistan have a very decent record in the last 3 years, but they don't play enough to say that they are the best. They also do very well in the strange conditions of the UAE.

 

[stefan]

So Steyns out. If he cant play the next game who would you want to play? I'd say Paterson but that isnt going to happen so my next option would be McLaren for batting depth but that isnt happening so looks like Rabada will...

McClaren can't even make his franchise team this season. If you want more batting depth you would have to go Chris Morris.

I will go with rabada. Personally I am not worried about the bowlers. Feel all of morris,radaba,viljoen and patterson can do a decent job. Obviously not to steyn's level but a decent job.

Batting is much bigger worry. They surely have to draft cook and QDK into the squad.

 

[Deleted member 149013]

They're not failing to recognise it. Who is the full time spinner they would be replacing him with?

It’s a very good question @bigred and has been talked about a few times in different threads...

Short term which would of meant the Pakistan series and the South Africa series.

I would have had to go for James Tredwell or Gareth Batty…

Long term and future series

Zafar Ansari, Adam Riley, Mason Crane??
Failing that you have Stephen Parry and Liam Dawson...

 

[bigred]

Well first things first, it's a tricky pitch, so runs are vital. No point trying to be flash and score quickly and getting out, when we need the runs.

But let's say the pitch was a good one, is it not a bit harsh to expect someone in his comeback match to be more expansive? Compton is back in the team because of what he has done at County level. It stands to reason that when he comes back into the team he's going to feel under pressure to get runs. So how is he going to do that? He's going to do it in his natural way. Once he feels more comfortable, he may well get more expansive. But to be critical of him in his first match back (not to mention in a relatively low scoring game) is insanely harsh.

It's a bit like Hales. It's his Test debut. Not everyone comes in and scores tons straight away. He deserves a chance and for me, a chance is a lot more than one match. The talk of Compton opening and replacing Hales almost straight away is also insane, in my opinion.

Onto Moeen. Good to see him getting some wickets. It was always going to take him some time to get back to rhythm, so it's no surprise to me that he got attacked early on. But good to see that he's come back and taken a few. All in all, we've had a great day. Hopefully we can convert this into a Test win.

I'm all for giving people a proper chance. I would have given Lyth a bit longer I think. However his technique looked as though he might prosper at test level one day. My instinct tells me that there's too much wrong with Hales' game. I would give him this series and the one at home to Sri Lanka though unless it looks totally obvious by the end of this tour that he's out of his depth.

I'm not saying Compton should be more expansive. That's not his job and we have guys at 6,7 and 8 that'll do that. I just want him to tick over with more singles. Especially against average off spin. He was striking at less than 20 for much of that innings.

 

[bigred]

It’s a very good question @bigred and has been talked about a few times in different threads...

Short term which would of meant the Pakistan series and the South Africa series.

I would have had to go for James Tredwell or Gareth Batty…

Long term and future series

Zafar Ansari, Adam Riley, Mason Crane??
Failing that you have Stephen Parry and Liam Dawson...

Are you telling me that Ansari, Riley and Dawson are better first class spinners than Ali? I very much doubt it. Dawson and Ansari would do a decent job in one day cricket be sue they could bat at 7 and bowl some tidy darts. At best, Ansari could become a bit of an Ashley Giles, giving the captain some control whilst he rotates the seamers. Dawson is a batsman.

Adam Riley had a great first season at Kent, but like so many spinners before him, he failed in his second season when teams began to target him. Wasn't his bowling average almost 50?

The second season is always the key test for any going spinner, so I'll reserve judgement on Crane until the end of 2016. I've been impressed by what I've seen so far though and he's a leggie.

Parry very seldom gets picked by Lancashire in first class cricket. I'm a massive fan of his and would take him to the t20 WC, but let's not kid ourselves, he bowls good darts.

Tredwell and Batty are both good county pros and are both marginally better than Ali at the moment in my opinion. But as you've said, they would be short term solutions. Ali offers youth, a lot of runs, good potential, he soon it quite a bit and he's a good fielder. I think the selectors are doing exactly the right thing.

 

[PokerAce]

To sum up the day's play ... catches win matches ... how many did SA drop today ... 3 dollies? Okay one of them didn't cost too much, as Compton fell two runs later, but SA had the chance to send in England 4 down for tea ... for 58.

 

[abhi_jacko]

Its weird seeing SAF drop so many catches .. is everything okay in the dressing room ?

 

[stefan]

Think the lack runs is affecting their confidence and that is affecting the catching as well.

 

[Deleted member 149013]

Are you telling me that Ansari, Riley and Dawson are better first class spinners than Ali? I very much doubt it. Dawson and Ansari would do a decent job in one day cricket be sue they could bat at 7 and bowl some tidy darts. At best, Ansari could become a bit of an Ashley Giles, giving the captain some control whilst he rotates the seamers. Dawson is a batsman.

Adam Riley had a great first season at Kent, but like so many spinners before him, he failed in his second season when teams began to target him. Wasn't his bowling average almost 50?

The second season is always the key test for any going spinner, so I'll reserve judgement on Crane until the end of 2016. I've been impressed by what I've seen so far though and he's a leggie.

Parry very seldom gets picked by Lancashire in first class cricket. I'm a massive fan of his and would take him to the t20 WC, but let's not kid ourselves, he bowls good darts.

Tredwell and Batty are both good county pros and are both marginally better than Ali at the moment in my opinion. But as you've said, they would be short term solutions. Ali offers youth, a lot of runs, good potential, he soon it quite a bit and he's a good fielder. I think the selectors are doing exactly the right thing.

I am not trying to tell you anything or that one bowler is better than another.

If England have a part time bowler like Ali then surly we either need a full time spinner or another part timer to back him up.

If we have an attack of Anderson, Broad and Wood established we need a spin bowler of the same quality to give us control and take the big wickets when needed.

I don’t go by county stats as the way of summing up a player they are a good indicator but you need to see the potential in a cricketer and what he could achieve…given the right coaching and advice.

Piedt was very impressive he has already took the wickets of Root and Cook, before the game would you thought that possible?

So if we pick the right young spinner who knows…

Parry darts? He bowled very well on finals day, he mixed up his pace and bowled a variation of different deliveries and considering Dawson is a batsman he doesn’t do that bad when bowling.

 

[bigred]

I am not trying to tell you anything or that one bowler is better than another.

If England have a part time bowler like Ali then surly we either need a full time spinner or another part timer to back him up.

If we have an attack of Anderson, Broad and Wood established we need a spin bowler of the same quality to give us control and take the big wickets when needed.

I don’t go by county stats as the way of summing up a player they are a good indicator but you need to see the potential in a cricketer and what he could achieve…given the right coaching and advice.

Piedt was very impressive he has already took the wickets of Root and Cook, before the game would you thought that possible?

So if we pick the right young spinner who knows…

Parry darts? He bowled very well on finals day, he mixed up his pace and bowled a variation of different deliveries and considering Dawson is a batsman he doesn’t do that bad when bowling.

Yes Parry was brilliant on finals day. But he doesn't play red ball cricket.

Dane Piedt has good first class stats. To a degree you can just go on potential, but players really have to prove themselves first in 4 day cricket before coming in.

 

[blockerdave]

I don't think Gary Ballance is pretty to watch but I think he'll come back and do some great work for England. He'll probably get better for being dropped. If he's used as a number 5 batsman, like he has been all his career, I reckon he'll have a test average of 45. I suppose the question at the moment for a lot of people is, who out of the following(in their preferred position) would score the most runs:
Hales at 2
Bell at 3
Vince at 4
Ballance at 5

I reckon the answer is Bell or Ballance out of those. I need to be convinced by James Vince with a huge first class season.

As for England's depth, I don't think we do have great depth. One area that isn't looking too bad is the seam bowling. After Anderson and Broad, there are quite a few guys that are all about the same standard give or take. Woakes, Plunkett, Finn, Wood, Jordan, Footitt and Brooks could all take wickets at test level.

However, we don't have a full time spinner worth picking at present. If there's an injury in the batting department, I worry about who there is to come in, and although Buttler may come back better than ever, with him out of the side there really isn't a decent keeper to pick.

I notice Jimmy Anderson wasn't in your team. Surely he is still England's best bowler?

Ben Stokes is already England's number 6. He's been batting there for the last 11 tests.

you're right about Ballance, and so, so so wrong about Bell.

Name me a batsman who has come back in their mid-30s and suddenly scored heavily after 10 years of international cricket and TWO YEARS of drought? Then name me another who did it after a career of everyone knowing they had the resilience of a rich tea biscuit in a hurricane? What makes you think Bell can do that?

 

[blockerdave]

Okay some things I've noticed:

If Tahir played we would of bowled them out for under 250. No ways the tail would pick his deliveries.

How can they not judge Van Zyl on India but judge Vilas on it? Double standards.

Can Cook sue CSA?

Paterson got about 6+ edges off Cook in the warm up and I love him to pieces.

Faf must be made captain or dropped as he isn't worth half a sausage.

Bavuma Faf and Van Zyl can't be in the team.

Piedt can't bowl consistently enough to be the holding spinner.

Compton is good enough to play no3. If he can score at 45+ then he's fine.

If anyone rates Abbott lower then Rabada a small piece of me dies.

Paterson > De Lange.

Amla can't be captain.

I can't watch AB De Villiers bat. The commentators can't stop talking about him even when Elgar hits a good shot for 4...

Steyn isn't past it and I apologize for saying that.

Why didn't we bowl Duminy? He's the best bowling all rounder we have...

don't know enough of SA Cricket to comment on a lot of that but re Tahir you're absolutely right. I think England should be very grateful he wasn't picked.

 

[Aalay]

Mike Atherton spoke in commentary about the fact that the SA public have very high expectations as they are world number 1, but he feels as though they probably aren't the world's best side now.

Well any cricket fan would tell you the exact same thing. Their 2 core players in Smith and Kalis who were also mentally their toughest players have retired. They do not have any good all-rounders in their domestic cricket right now which they always used to have in the past. So they need to have 2 players to replace Kalis. They do not have a strong leader like Smith in their current squad. Neither Amla nor Ab are leaders. Faf has leadership qualities but he is going through a lean patch so it is hard to make him the captain right now. Dale Steyn still has cricket left in him but these injuries as it does to all the fast bowlers will definitely cut his career short. Elgar can be a good opener but he doesn't have a strong partner with him.