General Cricket Discussion

[Cricketman]

I just don't think you can drop a guy like Dravid. He has averaged 50+ since Nov 2009 iirc.

I say Raina is the easiest to replace. He'll get eaten alive in SA, i'd play Chet.

 

[AngryPixel]

Replacing Raina makes sense for SAF series. But we need to exchange batting positions of Dravid and Laxman. Laxman is in terrific form in last few years and he can carry the momentum after Sehwag departs. Dravid at number 5 can hold the innings if there is a collapse. He could play his natural game(defensive) and no one would point a finger at him for playing slow when a team has lost 4 wickets.

 

[pcfan123]

Just wondering if anyone else shares the point of view that South Africa now produces the best fast bowling talent (as opposed to Pakistan)

Always had a facination with Pakistani fast bowlers as they produce gems like Aamer but SA has so many new guns from Parnell, to Tsotsobe to Theron. I'm struggling to come up with the name of another Pakistani youngster who is in the same league as Aamer.

So I guess my question is, which country out of the two do you think will produce better fast bowlers in the next decade. Pakistan historically pull out gems but SA is slowly becoming the only place in the world conducive for breeding genuine fast bowlers. Even conditions in England and Aus are getting lower and slower but SA pitches are staying relatively quick and bouncy.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

I just don't think you can drop a guy like Dravid. He has averaged 50+ since Nov 2009 iirc.

I say Raina is the easiest to replace. He'll get eaten alive in SA, i'd play Chet.

From 1st Jan 2009 to 4th Nov 2010 (including the current match), Dravid's stats read:

14 Matches, 24 innings, 1198 runs, 4 100s, 6 50s, Average of 57.04 and a HS of 177. His SR is higher than is career SR too, 47.9 to 42.4

Pretty good.

However, I think the telling stats are that in 4 innings against Australia, he scored 112 runs at an average of 37.33 and a HS of 77 (his only 50).

In 14 innings away from the batsmen-friendly pitches of India, he averages 45.66 with a HS of 111* (This includes Bangladesh, NZ and Sri Lanka. He actually did quite well in NZ, averaging 62.8, but averaged 19 in SL. So make of that what you want )

Also, in 8 matches since the start of 2010, he averages 37.58 in 14 innings.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

It's safe to say that he is in a bit of a form decline. Now would have been the ideal time to drop him.

Although yes, it's a tough call. I have a feeling the selectors wanted Dravid to have the tour to RSA and tour to England as his final hurrah, probably cause they feel Pujara/Kohli/Vijay wouldn't be up to the task just yet and both tournaments are extremely difficult and a test of whether India should retain their number 1 spot or not. We might see Dravid leave after the tour to England...

ZoraxDoom added 14 Minutes and 16 Seconds later...

Just wondering if anyone else shares the point of view that South Africa now produces the best fast bowling talent (as opposed to Pakistan)

Always had a facination with Pakistani fast bowlers as they produce gems like Aamer but SA has so many new guns from Parnell, to Tsotsobe to Theron. I'm struggling to come up with the name of another Pakistani youngster who is in the same league as Aamer.

So I guess my question is, which country out of the two do you think will produce better fast bowlers in the next decade. Pakistan historically pull out gems but SA is slowly becoming the only place in the world conducive for breeding genuine fast bowlers. Even conditions in England and Aus are getting lower and slower but SA pitches are staying relatively quick and bouncy.

Tsotsobe is 26 years old. So setting that as an age cut-off...


Pakistan's current pace stocks: Aamer, Wahab Riaz, Mohammed Irfan, Umar Gul

South Africa: Tsotsobe, Parnell, Theron, Morne Morkel


Problem is, Pakistan produces talent, but South Africa seems to nurture their talent a lot better. They've always produced very good fast bowlers, it's just that Pakistan hit the lottery with geniuses like Imran, Wasim, Waqar.

Even now though, Pakistan do have a very impressive lineup of quicks. Apart from the above, they have Asif and Akthar is still kicking about, with guys like Naved Ul Hasan, Sami, Razzaq, Shabbir Ahmed on the benches.

Having said that, South Africa have Dale Steyn, with Langaveldt, Albie Morkel, Kallis, Ryan McLaren, Yusuf Abdullah, Rory Kleinveldt and even 2-test wonder Friedel de Wet.


What India would do for half that pace bowling talent..

 

[pcfan123]

Even now though, Pakistan do have a very impressive lineup of quicks. Apart from the above, they have Asif and Akthar is still kicking about, with guys like Naved Ul Hasan, Sami, Razzaq, Shabbir Ahmed on the benches.

Asif will never play again
Akhtar is washed out
Naved is old
Sami is garbage
Razzaq is old

and don't know the last guy.

Pakistan are going to need to find new talent quick, esp when AA get banned for life.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

In terms of new talent they are behind. Wahab Riaz and Mohammed Irfan look the best bet, Umar Gul is still there. My guess is that Sami will get recalled. Naved, Razzaq and Akthar cannot last for much longer.

Shabbir Ahmed might return, got suspended for chucking once upon a time and ended up in the ICL too.

 

[pcfan123]

Yea I meant new talent and from what I saw of M Irfan, he looked like a pie chucker, a giant pie chucker

 

[sami ullah khan]

Pakistan will continue to churn out good genuine quickies. Its in the nature of youngsters here to bowl quick. But we have to manage the talent. What are selectors doing picking a failure such as Sami who averages over 50 and has not got to 100 test wickets in about forty or so matches.

 

[War]

Just wondering if anyone else shares the point of view that South Africa now produces the best fast bowling talent (as opposed to Pakistan)

Always had a facination with Pakistani fast bowlers as they produce gems like Aamer but SA has so many new guns from Parnell, to Tsotsobe to Theron. I'm struggling to come up with the name of another Pakistani youngster who is in the same league as Aamer.

So I guess my question is, which country out of the two do you think will produce better fast bowlers in the next decade. Pakistan historically pull out gems but SA is slowly becoming the only place in the world conducive for breeding genuine fast bowlers. Even conditions in England and Aus are getting lower and slower but SA pitches are staying relatively quick and bouncy.

Currently Australia easily have the best fast-bowling stocks in the world.

South Africa best options for tests behind Steyn & Morkel ATM is Fridel De Wet, but he is already 30 & is fairly injury proned. Parnell is talented but still way off from being test quality, i dont see any special with Tsotsobe & Theron is just a limited overs specialist.

You can probably add Craig Alexander, Ryan McLaren & Ethan O'Reilly to bowling stocks of SA. But they are works in progress.

War added 2 Minutes and 33 Seconds later...

Pakistan will continue to churn out good genuine quickies. Its in the nature of youngsters here to bowl quick. But we have to manage the talent. What are selectors doing picking a failure such as Sami who averages over 50 and has not got to 100 test wickets in about forty or so matches.

Would love to see Asif/Aamir/Gul/Raiz on pace-bowler friendly deck in the next year or two (presuming the suspened duo comes back).

War added 1 Minutes and 33 Seconds later...

Hastings is known as a big hitter too and hes more reliable with the bat. His bowling always seems to pick up wickets so in terms of all round packages I would take him. The only thing Johnson has over him is the x-factor through his pace but you don't need that when you have a bowler that continues to be the leading wicket taker.

Ye. Going to be hard for Hopes to get back into the side for the WC if Hastings continues to improve & perform in the ODIs this summer.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

Pakistan news: Zulqarnain Haider reportedly goes missing | Cricket News | Global | Cricinfo.com


Wow.

If I were in Dubai, I'd hide Zulqarnain at my house, no questions asked

 

[Themer]

Currently Australia easily have the best fast-bowling stocks in the world.

I'd strongly disagree with this. Steyn, Morkel, De Wet, Parnell, Tsotsobe and Theron is very impressive. Looks alot better than Siddle, Johnson, Hilfy, Harris and George.

Steyn himself is twice as good as either player on each side and Siddle/Johnson are terrible at the moment. If someone goes down on the morning of a test match I'd much rather have Parnell come in than George.

 

[War]

I'd strongly disagree with this. Steyn, Morkel, De Wet, Parnell, Tsotsobe and Theron is very impressive. Looks alot better than Siddle, Johnson, Hilfy, Harris and George.

Steyn himself is twice as good as either player on each side and Siddle/Johnson are terrible at the moment. If someone goes down on the morning of a test match I'd much rather have Parnell come in than George.

Ha. No way is Parnell, Tsotosbe & Theron by any means comparable to any of the AUS back up fast-bowlers once they are playing to potential.


I dont know what makes Johnson terrible ATM. He just took a 5 wicke haul in India, in conditions that dont suite his bowling. The most you can say about him is that coming back from the IND test series, he has been a bit inconsistent in the home ODIs. Same things goes for Siddle, he is simply just coming back from a long injury lay, dont take what he did in the recent ODIs as guide to his test credentials, since he is not really an ODI bowler.


Of course Steyn is the best fast-bowler in the bowler. But AUS back-up quicks are far more impressive than SA ATM quite clearly.

Lets say a hypotetical test between SA & AUS on pace-bowler friendly wicket similar to this test:

4th Test: South Africa v England at Johannesburg, Jan 14-17, 2010 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

A full strenght SA XI in tests with its best avaible quicks would be: Steyn/Morkel/De Wet/Kallis/McLaren in a XI of:

Smith
Petersen
Amla
Kallis
De Villiers
Prince
Boucher
McLaren (Imran Tahir in the near future would play on normal wicket instead)
Steyn
Morkel
De Wet

South Africa's backups in Parnell, Tsotsobe, Craig Alexander, Ethan O'Reilly, Cornelius De Villiers, Francious Plaatjies, Theron.

These back-ups range from either being not test quality (Tsotobe, Theron), raw talent not fullfilling his potential (Parnell), unproven but looks to have the raw skills to be a decent test bowler (Alexander) & unknowns (O'Reilly, De Villiers, Plaatijies).

While for AUS. You would have Bollinger/Hilfenhaus/Harris/Johnson/Watson. In a full strenght XI of:

Watson
Hughes
Ponting
Clarke
Katich
Ferguson
Haddin
Johnson
Harris
Hilfenhaus
Bollinger

So with both teams @ full strenght those attacks look pretty much even.

However AUS back-ups to this 4 is way ahead of SA. It ranges from Siddle, Starc, James Pattinson, George, Trent Copeland, McKay.

All of those back-ups i would consider having the raw skills to be useful in tests if picked soon compared to SAs back-up. Which overall makes AUS overall stronger quite clearly.

 

[pcfan123]

I'd strongly disagree with this. Steyn, Morkel, De Wet, Parnell, Tsotsobe and Theron is very impressive. Looks alot better than Siddle, Johnson, Hilfy, Harris and George.

Steyn himself is twice as good as either player on each side and Siddle/Johnson are terrible at the moment. If someone goes down on the morning of a test match I'd much rather have Parnell come in than George.

Yea I'm with you

I'd much rather have a Steyn, M Morkel and someone else attack than any of the Aussie bowlers right now. The Australian attack is very overrated.

 

[Cricketman]

Ehh Idk. The Saffers have been blessed to have been playing largely in pace friendly conditions off late. The Australian's are coming off a hammering in fast bowler hell - India.

An attack of Bollinger - Johnson - Hilfy (I think Ben's an absolutely fantastic bowler) backed up by an in form Siddle would be too hot to handle in quick conditions.

I want to watch an Aus vs Saf series now. Steyn-Morkel vs these guys is a salivating proposition.

Cricketman added 1 Minutes and 45 Seconds later...

My fast bowling attack would be:

Steyn
Zaheer
Morne
Hilfy/Bollinger depending on the conditions

 

[Themer]

depending on the conditions

I'd whack Anderson with those two. If the conditions are right he is probably the best bowler in the world.