Happy Birthday to 'The Great' Matthew Hayden!

[aussie_ben91]

Herbert Sutcliffe played in the era of uncovered pitches, and still averaged 60 in Test match cricket and over 50 in FC cricket, after 754 matches. He's one of the greatest players to ever play the game, Hayden's not played anywhere near the amount of FC matches that Sutcliffe did, and Sutcliffe was also playing on Uncovered pitches, meaning his average of 50 is actually meaningful. You can't argue with 151 FC hundreds.

The fact that Hobbs and Sutcliffe were able to play til they were at old age and play so many first-class games with such a high average just goes to show you the lack quality of competition back in the day.

Hayden may of not of played as many first-class matches but his played allot more first-class matches then allot of other players from the current era. You got to remember that the majority of practice matches are scrapped from first-class statistics aswell and that players in the modern day don't play as much first-class cricket due ODI and Twenty20 matches.

Hobbs and Sutcliffe didn't have to adjust from ODI cricket to Test Cricket. Half of the dismissals you see in the modern day, you wouldn't of seen 20+ years ago because the game has changed. Batsman nowadays have to adjust their mentality in the modern game, which can be extremely hard to do, something that former players didn't have to do. Even players from the 80's and early 90's didn't have to adjust that much because the batting aggression wasn't there.

If it's any constilation, Hayden averages 55 in first-class cricket in Australia and 52 in List-A in Australia. If you combind his matches from all forms of first-class cricket then he has played over 600 first-class games. Hayden has a very high average in both forms of the game if you deduct his International statistics. If you combind them both then I'd imagine that he'd still average over 50 and you'd imagine that Hayden wouldn've been highed had half of those games been first-class games and not List-A games.

Jack Hobbs played in the same era, played 61 tests and averaged 56. He also finished an 834 game FC career with an average over 50, with 61000 FC runs and 199 FC hundreds. Hayden may be a quality modern batsman, but he's got nothing on Hobbs and Sutcliffe. If you take away Hayden's runs against Bangladesh, Zimbabwe and ICC World XI he averages under 50 in Test Cricket, he would therefore not have got near the likes of Hobbs if playing on Uncovered wickets.

Sunil Gavaskar is again one of the greatest of all time. He played in an era with the greatest bowlers of all time. The likes of Thomson, Lillee, Holding, Roberts, Garner, etc etc. They're leaps above any modern bowlers, and you'd not face an attack anywhere near the quality of Holding, Roberts, Garner and Marshall nowadays. Hayden may have had to face Donald, Wasim, Waqar, etc, but he's not had to face an onslaught from 4 quality fast bowlers, bowling bouncers at you when you're not wearing a helmet. Hayden wouldn't have been skipping down the track to Michael Holding that's for sure..

Why would you take away the ICC World XI statistics? You're the one talking about Hayden not facing a 4 man quality attack? And this match came when Hayden was in the middle of a massive form slump and his career was on the line. What else could you ask for? His facing the best attack in the world and he was under immense pressure but instead he makes 180 odd runs and gets the man of the match but yet you don't think it should count?

I suppose you're going to discredit Gary Sobers innings of over 200 against Australia whilst playing for the World XI aswell. An innings that Sir Donald Bradman quoted one of the best he had ever seen. :

The trap you seem to fall into again and again is just thinking that the conditions of today were no different to those in past generations. The generations of uncovered pitches, the times of the massively fast pitches with 4 big fast West Indians running in, it was far harder to bat in generations gone by. Pitches have begun to favour the batsmen, boundaries have become smaller, bats are better, the game has very much advanced to favour the batsman. Hayden would not have averaged anywhere near 50 in the times of uncovered pitches. His technique was found out in England against Swing in 2005 and he saved himself from being dropped with a hundred in the last game.

Obviously we're all entitled to our opinions, but you'll be very much part of a minority in believing that Hayden is the greatest opener of all time. I'm sure if you asked all the great cricketing journalist who's the greatest opener of all time, the massive majority would go for one of the 4 names I mentioned in my earlier post.

I don't think any of your 1920's heros would've averaged anywhere near 50 had they have to experience the rigours of Modern Day cricket either. What's to say they would've scored dominated on flat pitches (Something you make out that they never played on)? And that they would've been prolific at ODI level? It would be a total different kettle of fish. They'd probably succumb to the pace of the bowlers and quickness of the modern day pitches and the pressure of having to score at a fast rate.

Hayden's a very talented batsman. Had he played in a different era, I'd imagine his mentality would be allot different and he would've been brought up with a different style of play and he would've played the conditions. Much like any other batsman from this era.

aussie_ben91 added 2 Minutes and 44 Seconds later...

Jayasuriya is a far better opening batsman than Haydos in ODI

Hayden is miles ahead of Jayasuriya in any form of cricket.

Jayasuriya = One of the most overrated cricketers of the Modern era.

Average of 43 > Average of 32

 

[King Pietersen]

I'll make a couple more points, but I really cba to even bother arguing this subject out, we all know that neither of us are going to change our opinion, so it's pointless. I took away the World XI match because I don't consider it to be a proper Test Match, and the World XI bowlers wouldn't exactly have been giving their all like they would if they were playing for their country, so it's a pointless match to include in statistics.

At the end of the day, we can't really compare, they've not played in the same era, so it's impossible to compare. But I'll say one thing in favour of Gavaskar again, I'm sure facing an attack of Roberts, Holding, Garner and Marshall, would have been far more difficult than even the best attack in the 90's and 2000's. But we can't really compare players from different generations, as you'll just keep coming back with the ODi aggressiveness thing, which really isn't relevant in a discussion about Test matches. I'm just going to take the high ground and leave the discussion now, these discussions only end up getting unsavoury and end in insults, so it's pointless. We've made our points clear, and if anyone wants to take up my point and run with it, then feel free.

 

[aussie_ben91]

You don't think that playing a set of ODI's games right before a Test Match doesn't change a players mentality coming into a Test Match?

 

[KBC]

Congratulations and Happy Birthday Matthew Hayden!

A true entertainer of the sport in this era! Good luck for him to make more records and be more legendary than ever! He can break up and smash world records if he thinks to.

A legendary and one of the most Destructive players of "All-Time!"

:hpraise:happy:happy........

 

[MUFC1987]

You don't think that playing a set of ODI's games right before a Test Match doesn't change a players mentality coming into a Test Match?

I think the term is 'match practice'. Invaluable I think you'll find.

 

[SciD]

Happy Birthday Bully Hayden.

Keep your current form alive though for 4 more innings.

BTW had he played 150 test matches Ponting and Tendulkar would have looked midgets.

 

[shubhrayu]

Happy Birthday Haydos

 

[ZoraxDoom]

No where near one of the all time greats. He'd be lucky to get close. Maybe an all time Aussie great, that's for you to decide, but for me he is just a big strong guy who whacks a ball around on flat pitches with short boundaries and a massive bat. The end.

Anyways, happy Bday.

 

[jordox]

Another point worth raising (I think Manee did previously) is that Hayden really struggles against movement. Cut or swing, Hayden never really seems to play it as well as others can. He has a tendancy to get trapped on the pads with late swing, and a tendancy to lunge foward to an away swinger and get caught behind.

That in my mind is why I would never call him the best opener in the world. I do think he is a marvellous player though I think Ben, you're stretching it a bit too far. That's just what I think though.

 

[karnog]

Yeah happy birthday Haydos. Um ben man drop the 'greatest openning batsman ever'. He's a fine player who is up there but he struggled against Alan Donald and never played against most of the best bowlers of the era: Wasim, Glenn, Shane, Waqar younis. He performed well against Murali though. Also his average is early 50s can't compare it to the older generation openners but you can compare him to my friend virender sehwag.

 

[Cricketman]

How old is Hayden now? 39? CBA to cricinfo it and check.

Happy Birthday.

 

[aussie_ben91]

Yeah happy birthday Haydos. Um ben man drop the 'greatest openning batsman ever'. He's a fine player who is up there but he struggled against Alan Donald and never played against most of the best bowlers of the era: Wasim, Glenn, Shane, Waqar younis. He performed well against Murali though. Also his average is early 50s can't compare it to the older generation openners but you can compare him to my friend virender sehwag.

Obviously didn't watch Australia's 2002 tour of South Africa when he destroyed Shaun Pollock and ended Allan Donald's career.

The only batsman I rate higher then Hayden are Ponting, Lara and Tendulkar from the current era.

Hayden's a much better all round package then other players like Hobbs, Hutten and Sutcliffe who didn't have to face quality spin bowling like in the modern era.

 

[TruSachFan]

Obviously didn't watch Australia's 2002 tour of South Africa when he destroyed Shaun Pollock and ended Allan Donald's career.

The only batsman I rate higher then Hayden are Ponting, Lara and Tendulkar from the current era.

Hayden's a much better all round package then other players like Hobbs, Hutten and Sutcliffe who didn't have to face quality spin bowling like in the modern era.

What about the matchwinner Inzamam? :

 

[aussie_ben91]

Inzamam doesn't even come close to Hayden. Inzamam scored 1 hundred against Australia and South Africa in a combination of 27 Test matches.

 

[shubhrayu]

Come on Guys don't get Inzamam the Boiled Potato closed to the Great Haydos