Harbhajan cleared of racism charges

[sohum]

When i heard the available audio on Cricinfo. I was quite shocked, i thought it would be obvious that Harbhajan called Symonds a monkey when i heard that. Yes it is not solid evidence but it definitely helps the case.

How was it obvious apart from the fact that you were interpreting it as an Aussie fan?

He's been fined and that's where it should end. Obviously Australian fans will be angry and Indian fans will still try to defend their team. The line "But he started it" was probably the big give-away and deserved to get his fine. Just hope this will be finished with soon.

If you think the "he started it" line is such a give away, what do you think about this theory:

(a) Symonds said something to Harbhajan
(b) Harbhajan said something to Symonds
(c) Hayden insinuated that (b) was racist
(d) Harbhajan said "he started it", meaning that (b) was made in retaliation of (a)

Hence, if (b) was racist, then (a) must also be racist, if Harbhajan made it in retaliation. Unless you want to admit that there is doubt that Harbhajan may have been referring to the argument rather than the word.

Yeah I agree, no need for court, when he was first banned it was 100%.

100% unproven?

Hahahahaha, so Symonds should get fined because he is the victim of racial abuse? Oh thats a smart idea...

He didn't start it, Singh did when he hit Lee in the arse with his bat, Symonds was just sticking up for his mate.

Ah, so Lee was the idiot for not taking offense for it? Lee just took his cap and went back. It's obvious Symonds was trying to be a prick and get under Harbhajan's skin. The "Lee incident" was just a pretext.

That's a fair point Hooper.

If I had just been accused of calling someone a monkey, I wouldn't reply in the way that Bhaji did.

Would you have been playing in a ground full of 30000 people, coming up against a team and a player who obviously have plans to intimidate you, and hence thinking about every word you said and every possible impact it had?

 

[Animator!]

I'm sorry but you cannot argue that someone should be equitted of a racist remark just because he wasnt the first to say something. It was in fact an act of Harbahjan that set the ball rolling on the whole situation when Harbahjan made contact with Lee with his bat.

 

[IloveGilly]

If you think the "he started it" line is such a give away, what do you think about this theory:

(a) Symonds said something to Harbhajan
(b) Harbhajan said something to Symonds
(c) Hayden insinuated that (b) was racist
(d) Harbhajan said "he started it", meaning that (b) was made in retaliation of (a)

Hence, if (b) was racist, then (a) must also be racist, if Harbhajan made it in retaliation. Unless you want to admit that there is doubt that Harbhajan may have been referring to the argument rather than the word.

a) Symonds never resulted to lines with any sense of racial/abusive language, he may have provoked him but we see that nowadays, the fact Harbhajan resulted to using 'monkey' is what was the source of the weakness. My argument is that Symonds, probably pushed him and he was weak enough to result to abusive language.
b) Yes, Harbhajan clearly said something that Hayden heard as well and resulted to Symonds saying "You're calling me a monkey again?" and Hayden tried to back him up. Oddly, he said "But he started it" soon after. Does it not contrast no relevance?
c) Hayden obviously heard something to go with Symonds other line for him to react like that, then to state that to state it's 'racial vilification'. Not unusual that Sachin tried to break it up as fast as he could to avoid any more drama?
d) I'll agree with that. Yes a) was probably a fire up, but b) was a retaliation which used abusive language. So what gives him a right to attack back with abusive language? And to think that the word 'monkey' could be used in context of a "God" in a heated moment like that. And I'm sure if Symonds said something, Harbhajan would've used that in defense as his case.

Understandably there is a sense of defence for your players and nation, but he got a suitable and pretty much 'lucky'.

 

[prarara]

a) Symonds never resulted to lines with any sense of racial/abusive language, he may have provoked him but we see that nowadays, the fact Harbhajan resulted to using 'monkey' is what was the source of the weakness. My argument is that Symonds, probably pushed him and he was weak enough to result to abusive language.
b) Yes, Harbhajan clearly said something that Hayden heard as well and resulted to Symonds saying "You're calling me a monkey again?" and Hayden tried to back him up. Oddly, he said "But he started it" soon after. Does it not contrast no relevance?
c) Hayden obviously heard something to go with Symonds other line for him to react like that, then to state that to state it's 'racial vilification'. Not unusual that Sachin tried to break it up as fast as he could to avoid any more drama?
d) I'll agree with that. Yes a) was probably a fire up, but b) was a retaliation which used abusive language. So what gives him a right to attack back with abusive language? And to think that the word 'monkey' could be used in context of a "God" in a heated moment like that. And I'm sure if Symonds said something, Harbhajan would've used that in defense as his case.

Understandably there is a sense of defence for your players and nation, but he got a suitable and pretty much 'lucky'.

Nothing gives anyone the right to abusive language-this is why Bhajji was fined for using abusive language. If you agree this was a retaliation, then why isn't Symmo being considered for being fined for abusive language?

...also you would then also accept the case that 'he started it' is so ambiguous that it could include the conclusion that Symonds started the racist conversation?

I don't feel he got lucky, as much as he got off for inadmissible evidence. Plain and simple.

 

[Animator!]

Symmo wasnt considered for abusive language because he never said anything abusive, to the best of my knowledge all he has actually said in this whole incident is "Are you calling me a monkey again?"

 

[pal]

I think Justice Hansen wrote, in his report, that Symonds had breached an earlier agreement between Bhajji and Symonds through "provocative abuse". I don't know anything more about that, but I think it should also be noted that Symonds has now admitted that he does not recall whether Harbhajan used the word 'monkey' and that there was a possibility that he could have used the 'teri maa ki' thing, so, it's pretty unfair to Bhajji at this point to assume that he said anything racist.

 

[sohum]

I'm sorry but you cannot argue that someone should be equitted of a racist remark just because he wasnt the first to say something. It was in fact an act of Harbahjan that set the ball rolling on the whole situation when Harbahjan made contact with Lee with his bat.

Could you read my whole post? Harbhajan wasn't let off because he wasn't the first to say it, he was let off because there wasn't enough evidence. And about the whole Lee incident, read my post.

a) Symonds never resulted to lines with any sense of racial/abusive language, he may have provoked him but we see that nowadays, the fact Harbhajan resulted to using 'monkey' is what was the source of the weakness. My argument is that Symonds, probably pushed him and he was weak enough to result to abusive language.
b) Yes, Harbhajan clearly said something that Hayden heard as well and resulted to Symonds saying "You're calling me a monkey again?" and Hayden tried to back him up. Oddly, he said "But he started it" soon after. Does it not contrast no relevance?
c) Hayden obviously heard something to go with Symonds other line for him to react like that, then to state that to state it's 'racial vilification'. Not unusual that Sachin tried to break it up as fast as he could to avoid any more drama?
d) I'll agree with that. Yes a) was probably a fire up, but b) was a retaliation which used abusive language. So what gives him a right to attack back with abusive language? And to think that the word 'monkey' could be used in context of a "God" in a heated moment like that. And I'm sure if Symonds said something, Harbhajan would've used that in defense as his case.

Understandably there is a sense of defence for your players and nation, but he got a suitable and pretty much 'lucky'.

You didn't understand my argument, despite me breaking it up into pieces. You claimed that Harbhajan saying "I didn't start it" was grounds to prove that he did what Symonds and Hayden accused him of doing. By using those same words "I didn't start it", I can imply that Harbhajan didn't start a racist discourse. I know that Symonds didn't say anything racist but the whole point of this exercise is to prove that Harbhajan saying "I didn't start it" isn't as ridiculously obvious as you make it out to be.

 

[prarara]

Symmo wasnt considered for abusive language because he never said anything abusive, to the best of my knowledge all he has actually said in this whole incident is "Are you calling me a monkey again?"

http://usa.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2007-08/IND_IN_AUS/icc_commissioner_decision_30012008.pdf
Here is a section from the transcript of the case:

Statement of Agreed Facts
During the 116th over on Day 3 of the Sydney Test, Harbhajan Singh made friendly
contact with Brett Lee. At the end of the over while the umpires were changing ends
and the fields was crossing over to their new positions, Andrew Symonds
approached Harbhajan Singh and told him that he had no friends amongst the
Australians (he admits he used the word ‘****’ or a derivation thereof). Singh used
similar language to Symonds and neither took offence at that stage.
However the exchange caused Singh to become angry and he motioned to Symonds
to come towards him. Singh then said something to Symonds. There is a dispute as
to what was said. However all of the players who gave evidence to the hearing
before Match Referee Procter of what was said between Harbhajan Singh and
Andrew Symonds namely, Harbhajan Singh, Andrew Symonds, Mathew Hayden and
Michael Clarke, are all clearly of the view that in the circumstances, Harbhajan
Singh used language that was (and intended by Singh to be), offensive to Andrew
Symonds. Symonds took immediate offence at the language and behaviour of Singh.
After the exchange between Singh and Symonds, Michael Clare spoke to umpire
Mark Benson and complained about Singh’s behaviour, Clarke then told his captain
Ricky Ponting what he had heard. Ponting went to Umpire Benson and told him that
he had been informed by Clarke of the use by Harbhajan Singh of offensive language
towards Andrew Symonds. On his way back to the slips position Ricky Ponting
spoke with Harbhajan Singh, Sachin Tendulkar then approached Ponting and Singh
and asked Ponting to allow him to manage the situation.
Ricky Ponting then went into the slips. During over 117 Mathew Hayden informed
Ponting that he had heard Harbhajan Singh use offensive language towards
Symonds at the conclusion of the preceding over. At the end of Over 117 Ponting
went of the field and told the Australian Team Manager (Steve Bernard) about the
incident.
Harbhajan Singh (Signature), Ricky Ponting (Signature), Andrew Symonds
(Signature), Adam Gilchrist (Signature), Sachin Tendulkar (Signature), Michael
Clarke (Signature) and Mathew Hayden (Signature).


“MR MANOHAR: I put it to you that apart from the other Indian abuses he said to
you the words “teri maki”?
MY SYMONDS: Possibly, I don’t recall, I don’t speak that language.
6
MR MANOHAR: Thank you.
HIS HONOUR: But you accept that as a possibility, My Symonds?
MR SYMONDS: As a possibility I accept that, yes.”

So a possibility is accepted, we have Symmo-the offended party-saying he wasn't sure what the insult exactly was, or to what level it was insulting.

next:

“MR MANOHAR: You had any objection to that patting on the back?
MR SYMONDS: Did I have an objection to it – my objection was that a test match is
no place to be friendly with an opposition player, is my objection.”

“MR JORDAN: Just one matter, your Honour. Mr Singh, so you felt provoked by Mr
Symonds using the work “****”?
MR SINGH: Yes.
8
MR JORDAN: And you felt provoked by Mr Symonds after shaking hands with you
in India using that word on the foot – on the ---?
MR SINGH: Yes.
MR JORDAN: ---cricket field? And you were angry?”
…MR SINGH: Yes, I was angry.

Symmonds overtly went to provoke Bhajji by using teh word f-word. Symmonds was not some sort of angel dragged through the mire by Bhajji-he started the incident with a very ugly word, possibly uglier in the connotation of contempt he had for friendlyness by opposing players while on the pitch.

Not only that:

When reviewing the evidence it is apparent that following incidents in India
there was a little of ill feeling between Mr Singh and Mr Symonds. Mr Symonds felt
he had been called a “monkey” which was a racial insult by Mr Singh. Mr Singh for
his part said that he never called him such thing. Whatever was actually said it is
apparent that they shook hands and there was an agreement. Mr Symonds
maintained this was an agreement by Mr Singh not to use this word again. Mr Singh
said it was a two way agreement whereby neither of them would speak to each other
on the field in such a way. Mr Symonds was not cross examined by counsel for Mr
Singh as to the extent of this agreement and whether it was two sided matter. But
equally Mr Singh was not challenged as to his version that it was a two way
agreement.

There was an agreement for both players to be civil towards each other-this was not challenged by Symmonds, and it clearly then states that Symmonds broke the contract.

So if Bhajji is even getting fined for offensive language, Symmo should as well, as should Hogg (but the Indians dropped the charge.)


If you ask me, the Australians are as equally 'lucky' as the Indians, perhaps more so, teri maki is far more tame an insult than calling someone a derivation of the fu.. or bast...,

 

[vaibhav mehta]

In any case both are guilty and both should be fined""""
(Racism and abuse words)Creating pressure by speech (when you can't do that by bowling or batting) was started by aussi(great mcgrath).and everybody won't be sachin(keep quiete at every second)

so its bounce back something to aus which started by them.