Harbhajan Singh - most overrated Indian Spinner?

[ZoraxDoom]

You should really watch Bhajji bowl. It isn't like he is bowling into the batsmen's pad or just bowling straight darts. When he bowls, batsmen don't take risks cause if they do, they'll get out. He keeps chaing his flight, angle, and gets turn and bounce. He is also very aggressive, and bowls some very good deliveries at times. The problem is with Test cricket, is that you won't get wickets if they don't attack you.
Bhajji is a good limited overs bowler in that he is difficult to score off. For a while, he was bowling defensively in tests, but against Pakistan he has bowled well in all tests. It's just a bit of bad luck he's not getting wickets, but he is by no means overated.

EDIT: Regarding Powar and Karthik, they both are very good, yes. But neither of them will hack it at test level. Atleast not Powar. While I enjoy watching him, you aren't going to have a long on and deep midwicket in a test match to help him pick wickets. When on form, he is brilliant, but if he hits a bad patch, I don't think Powar will do much. Karthik is very good, at his peak, and definately should get more games.

 

[Leggie]

Personally I think Murali Kartik and Ramesh Powar are better than Bhajji, Powar is brilliant when he flights it and Kartik...well what can I say, he's benn brilliant since his comeback...

 

[manee]

A few statistics, I may go into more technical detail slightly later.

A good way to compare spinners is wickets per Test innings as it forgoes the flatness of a pitch slightly.

Muttiah Muralitharan: 3.36 wickets per innings
Anil Kumble: 2.69 wickets per innings
Shane Warne: 2.59 wickets per innings
Harbhajan Singh: 2.21 wickets per innings
Daniel Vettori: 1.92 wickets per innings

As I said before, much more from me slightly later...

 

[sohum]

I feel what's wrong with him is that he cannot pick up wickets even on subcontinent pitches any more. I'm questioning his selection for the Test team in the main.

Although I agree with your general statement, I think this series can not be used as a proper evidence for your argument. We saw a drought of wickets this series and surely this cannot all be blamed on Harbhajan Singh. The pitches were flatter than usual and didn't crumble either, not to mention both sides were batting-heavy.

I saw that the newspaper columnists were busy blaming Irfan Pathan and poor Ishant Sharma (who picked up 5 wickets in an innings on debut - no mean feat) for not taking enough wickets on the 2nd innings of the Bangalore match, but seem to have conveniently forgotten Harbhajan's role in making this match a draw.

This was not Ishant Sharma's debut match. He made his debut against Bangladesh where he picked up 1 wicket in 13 overs.

 

[SciD]

A few statistics, I may go into more technical detail slightly later.

A good way to compare spinners is wickets per Test innings as it forgoes the flatness of a pitch slightly.

Muttiah Muralitharan: 3.36 wickets per innings
Anil Kumble: 2.69 wickets per innings
Shane Warne: 2.59 wickets per innings
Harbhajan Singh: 2.21 wickets per innings
Daniel Vettori: 1.92 wickets per innings

As I said before, much more from me slightly later...

Murli is from MARS we cannot comapre him.

 

[harishankar]

This was not Ishant Sharma's debut match. He made his debut against Bangladesh where he picked up 1 wicket in 13 overs.

Oh, ok. Forgot about that. Didn't really follow India v Bangladesh all that closely myself.

 

[Cricketman]

Piyush > Harbajan.

 

[SciD]

Piyush > Harbajan.

Piyush will definately get his time. But now only kumble is our main spinner in test matches and Bhajji in ODIs.

 

[harishankar]

We need a genuine leg-spinner badly to play a part on harder, truer wickets. Once Kumble retires, there will be a gaping hope in the spin department and to be frank I don't see Harbhajan filling that slot successfully.

 

[manee]

We need a genuine leg-spinner badly to play a part on harder, truer wickets. Once Kumble retires, there will be a gaping hope in the spin department and to be frank I don't see Harbhajan filling that slot successfully.

I agree, Harbhajan works well as a back up spinner but does not quite have it in him to lead the attack. I have a feeling that Piyush Chawla will be the leading contender for the slot when Kumble retires, especially after his demolitions of Kenya and Zimbabwe Select for India A.

 

[angryangy]

A few statistics, I may go into more technical detail slightly later.

A good way to compare spinners is wickets per Test innings as it forgoes the flatness of a pitch slightly.

Muttiah Muralitharan: 3.36 wickets per innings
Anil Kumble: 2.69 wickets per innings
Shane Warne: 2.59 wickets per innings
Harbhajan Singh: 2.21 wickets per innings
Daniel Vettori: 1.92 wickets per innings

As I said before, much more from me slightly later...

Economy does interfere with averages, but I think it tends to be fair to the way a bowler bowls (I added a few more to see how it all looks)
Murali 2.41
Saqlain 2.64
Warne 2.65
Kumble 2.65
Vettori 2.67
Harbhajan 2.81
Panesar 2.94
Kaneria 2.98
MacGill 3.17

but also compare strike rate, after all, average is essentially a function of economy and strikerate.
MacGill 53
Murali 54
Warne 57
Kumble 65
Panesar 65
Harbhajan 65
Saqlain 68
Kaneria 68
Vettori 78

And consider the average overs per innings.
Murali 32
Kumble 29
Kaneria 27
Saqlain 27
Warne 25
Vettori 25
Harbhajan 24
Panesar 23
MacGill 22

It's quite interesting to look at them en masse, I find.

 

[icyman]

he seems alright to me , he did pretty well to me in the 20/20 world cup especially when he was brought on to bowl those last couple of overs.

T20 is completely different.
He just had to dart the ball into the batsman's pads.

His offspinners have lost the bite and do not look threatening at all.He needs tailormade wickets to run through a side.

Murali Karthik would`ve been a much better option for the Aussie series as the Aussies seem to have a weakness against left-arm spin.
We seem to have forgotten about Piyush Chawla. The guy deserves to be picked in the ODI side at least, especially after the way he bowled in the unhelpful English conditions.

Definatley Karthik would have been helpful.
A change of angle would have surely troubled the Aussies.Also,Aussies are not too comfortable playing against Karthik.

1) Murli Kartick is far worse than Bhajji. Kartick has had his chances and like Powar did not do anything with that. Can ypu give me 1 match winning performance from this guy?

2) You compare him to Powar and Kartick. But both of them play ODI and you cannt see them in test matches. Therefore as far as ODI concerned he is best spinner in India with economy rate of 4.1 consistently. If on Indian tracks where 300 is common my spinner gives me 41-45 runs every match I will take as captain.

3) He has not only won Australian series but has had very good performance after that also. How many wickets did Kumble took in Kolkatta and 1st innings of Banglore test?

4) Hes only 1 of 2 off spinners playing game right now who can bowl DOOSRA.

5) Pakistan probably play spin better after India. Therefore he was never going to light up the scenes in this series.

6) Fact remains hes still threat against England, RSA, Sri Lanka, West Indies, New Zealand. Even Aussies respect his bowling.

1. When did Karthik have his chances ? Match-winning 6 wickets in Mumbai 2004 v Aus.
Rest,there arent any coz he has'nt got the chance to play.

2. As far as ODI is concerned,I believe that Sachin Tendulkar is the best-spinner we have got.

3. Hasn't provided any good performances after 2002.Has'nt troubled any team except Zim and Ban.

4. Karthik is the one of the rare left-arm spinners that the world has.

5. Why select him then.Also this point contradicts your 3rd point.

6. Respecting the bowling- ? Well,any team would say that.

A few statistics, I may go into more technical detail slightly later.

Stats are not always helpful.

 

[SciD]

1. When did Karthik have his chances ? Match-winning 6 wickets in Mumbai 2004 v Aus.
Rest,there arent any coz he has'nt got the chance to play.

2. As far as ODI is concerned,I believe that Sachin Tendulkar is the best-spinner we have got.

3. Hasn't provided any good performances after 2002.Has'nt troubled any team except Zim and Ban.

4. Karthik is the one of the rare left-arm spinners that the world has.

5. Why select him then.Also this point contradicts your 3rd point.

6. Respecting the bowling- ? Well,any team would say that.

Stats are not always helpful.

I think people here like Murli Kartick but what did he do in the Sydney test last time around. He had pitch, the Aussies were under pressure to save match.

I dont remember last time we played test against Zimbawe.

Two spinners will never play in Australia. Therefore no matter if Murli went or did not went to Australia.

Sachin is not our best spin bowler and by far way. I think you wrote this one wrongly.

This is his test record after 01-May-2002. 152 wickets in 37 at 31 Test is not a bad record considering India play on wickets where 500 scores are easy cake.

Mat  W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St


37   152  7/48   31.76 13  26  0

 

[icyman]

As I said earlier,STATS don't always reflect the true picture.

Tendulkar's spinners bamboozle the batsman.It actually seems as if he can get a wicket compared to Bhajji.

I also accept the fact that Kartik took just one wicket in the Sydnet Test and went for about 200 odd runs.
But,if you are going to the give the poor guy just one chance in a few Tests,it is not fair to judge him on the basis of one performance alone.

Harbhajan is not bad,but he is not getting the wickets even after 3 Tests.
Had they given Kartik a chcne and had he failed,I would not have questioned the selectors leaving him out.

 

[King Cricket]

Harbhajan never was MATCH WINNER. But he really knows how to check the runs in ODI cricket. And in tests we don't have a good spinner who can replace him.
Murali Kartik is not that good in tests and Pawar sometimes give away so many runs that things really get out of control.