How highly should Dale Steyn be rated?.

[StinkyBoHoon]

I'm never sure why people aren't interested in how many wickets a player will take per match.

we do usually shout about this stat, you look back at a series and go "over three matches mr x took 27 wickets that series!!!!" but people don't really ever look at it in a wider context of a career.

anyway, the reason I bring it up is because out of the first 100 or so top wicket takers ever the only person that took more wickets per match is stat-freak murali. Steyn takes 5.13 wickets a match, only murali, hadlee, and lilee have got comparable numbers.

and yes, I made a spreadsheet.

		Matches	Innings	Wickets	Average	WPM
M Muralitharan	133	230	800	22.72	6.015
					
SK Warne	145	273	708	25.41	4.883
					
A Kumble	132	236	619	29.65	4.689
					
GD McGrath	124	243	563	21.64	4.540
					
CA Walsh	132	242	519	24.44	3.932
					
N Kapil Dev	131	227	434	29.64	3.313
					
Sir RJ Hadlee	86	150	431	22.29	5.012
					
SM Pollock	108	202	421	23.11	3.898
					
Wasim Akram	104	181	414	23.62	3.981
					
Harbhajan Singh	99	182	408	32.27	4.121
					
CEL Ambrose	98	179	405	20.99	4.133
					
M Ntini		101	190	390	28.82	3.861
					
IT Botham	102	168	383	28.4	3.755
					
MD Marshall	81	151	376	20.94	4.642
					
Waqar Younis	87	154	373	23.56	4.287
					
Imran Khan	88	142	362	22.81	4.114
					
DL Vettori	112	185	360	34.42	3.214
					
DK Lillee	70	132	355	23.92	5.071
					
WPUJC Vaas	111	194	355	29.58	3.198
					
AA Donald	72	129	330	22.25	4.583
					
RGD Willis	90	165	325	25.2	3.611
					
DW Steyn	63	118	323	22.67	5.127
					
B Lee		76	150	310	30.81	4.079
					
LR Gibbs	79	148	309	29.09	3.911
					
FS Trueman	67	127	307	21.57	4.582
					
DL Underwood	86	151	297	25.83	3.453
					
Z Khan		88	158	295	32.35	3.352
					
CJ McDermott	71	124	291	28.63	4.099
					
JM Anderson	77	142	288	30.39	3.740
					
JH Kallis	161	265	288	32.22	1.789

I think it is a relatively useful stat, especially for showing up which bowlers lead their teams and which take a back seat role and tend to pick off people and take a back seat.

 

[Sedition]

Crazy to think what Warne and McGrath's would be if they played in separate eras to each other, or had other lesser bowlers alongside them, or chucked.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

I prefer to imagine what australians would have been like in that scenario, and the answer is tolerable.

 

[sifter132]

I'm never sure why people aren't interested in how many wickets a player will take per match.

we do usually shout about this stat, you look back at a series and go "over three matches mr x took 27 wickets that series!!!!" but people don't really ever look at it in a wider context of a career.

Yeah that's not a pretty good, underused stat, and in particular I like what it does to show how important Dennis Lillee was to Australian cricket. And how Steyn takes a lot of wickets even in a good side.

The stat I can't work out is the "in wins" stats. eg. the latest Steyn stat article on Cricinfo (Numbers Game : Numbers Game: Match-winner Steyn, and winless Windies | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo) tells me that Steyn has taken 225 wickets @ 15.79 in Tests that SA have won. Sounds great, but what does this prove? That Steyn is the main driver of SA winning? That maybe when he doesn't bowl well, SA lose? That he is at his best when SA are on top in a match and he can bowl without fear? That he is poor when SA aren't on top? ie. looking at the reverse side of those stats: the other 98 wickets of his career @ 38.48. Or maybe it just says that he just plays in a strong team? Can't really be that one, since Richard Hadlee and Murali both have excellent averages when their team won.

Sachin Tendulkar is criticised for having scored quite a few 100s in games that India lost, on the other hand, Graeme Smith hasn't scored a century in a Test that SA has lost. What does it all mean?

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

yeah, that one can tend to get a bit muddy and out of context, it would be interesting to see if there are any players that played as well, or nearly as well, win or lose, just to get a feel for what that stat really said.

I liked that stat for the boost it gave to lilee as well actually, I've noticed round here anyway he's not held in as high regard as some other 70s/80s bowlers. I've hardly done much in the way of sticking up for him but I'll admit I've sometimes wondered how people round here would rate him at the bottom or even outside a top 10 fast bowlers ever yet when guys that played at the same time are listing their world XIs he often makes it into the team.I also made sure it went down to kallis because I think it was good to show that botham and even flintoff where offering a lot more than the comparitive average suggests with their bowling.

back to steyn though, I did find it surprising that SAF have relied on him more for wickets than even NZ relied on hadlee. got to count for something when rating him.

 

[Aoun13]

Steyn is world's best bowler in the present era and if he remain like this for his whole career he will be among top 3 best bowlers of all time.
What I really like about him is that he has self confidence (not overconfidence) which makes him such a deadly bowler. He knows when to bowl what and how to bowl. Obviously bowling friendly pitches may help your stats just a little bit but he has very good record in subcontinent aswell.

 

[savvart]

One thing that is always overlooked is the amount of matches Murali had in the subcontinent as compared to Warne.

Also how many matches did he play against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh as compared to Warne who played each country only ONCE...

Not fair comparison then - is it...

 

[spooony]

The USA have accused South Africa of being in the possession of WMD after receiving video footage of Dale Steyn.

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One thing that is always overlooked is the amount of matches Murali had in the subcontinent as compared to Warne.

Also how many matches did he play against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh as compared to Warne who played each country only ONCE...

Not fair comparison then - is it...

Good point but Warne struggled on the sub continent for some reason. Probably because McGrath haven't knocked over the top order for him so quickly as back at home yet.

 

[sifter132]

^Warne has quite good figures in Sri Lanka and Pakistan (UAE and Bangladesh too - but only 2 Tests in each). Just not India. Average of 20.86 in 16 Tests in the other 4 Asian countries vs 43.11 in 9 Tests in India.

 

[cricket_icon]

South Africa have had some fine fast/medium bowlers over the years. The three that stand out for me in my own time are Donald, Pollock, Steyn and in your original post you forgot to mention Ntini.

Steyn for me has superseded the great Ntini and the great Pollock. His only realy competition for the number one spot remains Donald. Statistically Steyn edges it, a better SR and more wickets added to more 4,5 and 10 W hauls. The only edge that I'd give to Donald is that he was faster and more menacing at his very best.

Steyn when fired up is a faint shadow of the pacemen of old (Donald, Akhtar, Younis), the truly aggressive men that were enforcers for their team. However, to Steyn's constant credit he has bowled on worse pitches against some very good Australian and English sides and an above average Indian team.

The next couple of years will not only decide if Steyn is SA's number one but also if he is near the very top of all time great fast bowlers. Watch out Akram, Malcolm and co.

 

[puddleduck]

I'll keep it short and sweet.

Very.

 

[spooony]

^Warne has quite good figures in Sri Lanka and Pakistan (UAE and Bangladesh too - but only 2 Tests in each). Just not India. Average of 20.86 in 16 Tests in the other 4 Asian countries vs 43.11 in 9 Tests in India.

I was referring to India. No place else as we all know he got wacked there. Even Pat Symcox has good stats in Pakistan...

 

[Shahbaz63]

Yes Why not ? Dale Steyn is the best bowler around there at the moment without a doubt & undoubtedly, I don't see a reason to not call him so.

Anyways averaging nearly 22 in this batsman's era isn't said it all also the wicket taking ability on per matches more then 5 wickets/ match. if not steyn then Who ? that will be my question then.

 

[sifter132]

I was referring to India. No place else as we all know he got wacked there. Even Pat Symcox has good stats in Pakistan...

And Murali has slightly worse stats in India than Warne. Murali has 40 wickets in 11 Tests @ 45.45 vs Warne 34 wickets in 9 Tests @ 43.11. We can play comparisons all day