Murali v Warne

[usy]

Oh and Usy, Iam a better bowler, at least I can bowl Off Spin, not throw it, it automatically makes me the better bowler.

:

 

[Sureshot]

Its not just me, there are millions of people who think the same, that he throws. They know he throws by watching the Cricket, they arent nerds who read "Murali has been cleared of throwing because tests prove it", and then say that he doesn't throw purely on that, thats just stupid - make your own judgement.

They can take me seriously because I watch Cricket, and I have watched Murali bowl since '03, witnessed Test matches where he has bowled Doosra's...

You can tell what a throw is, watch Cricket and you will see.

I think everyone here watches Cricket, otherwise we wouldn't be here would we?

He doesn't throw because he's been proven to bowl within the legal limit, how can someone be within the limit and still called a chucker?

In your theory...

I had a blood alcohol limit of 60 mg per 100ml of blood, yet I'm still a drink driver? (The legal limit is 80mg per 100ml btw)

The facts are that Murali bowls legally, your opinion is that he doesn't. Facts are a much stronger base than opinions.

I'll point out the action of James Kirtley who had to change his, how many thought his old action was a throw? Not many, okay he was in a different stage to Murali, but my point is that you can't judge a bowlers action with your naked eye, why do they use such sophisticated technology rather than have him bowl in front of a panel of experts using their naked eye?

Some quotes I've found on the web...

With the use of modern technology, the panel also found that legendary bowlers such as Dennis Lillee, Fred Trueman, Richard Hadlee, Curtly Ambrose, Imran Khan, Ian Botham and Allan Donald, although they looked perfect to the naked eye, also bent their arms too much when bowling, meaning they, too, were throwing.

"While we watched the likes of [Glenn] McGrath, [Shaun] Pollock, [Steve] Harmison and Donald, we quickly realised that the levels [of tolerance] were far too low," Fraser said. "All those bowlers possessed actions any youngster would be wise to copy, yet their bowling arms were nowhere near as straight as we anticipated.

"Many will feel that, by allowing this, the ICC are legalising throwing. They are not. All the information and opinion collected, along with the fact that is almost impossible to see the arm straighten with the naked eye until it reaches this angle, points to 15 degrees."

15 degrees really isn't a lot, and if you can see that much change during an action then you have an incredible optician.

Bruce Elliott, one of three biomechanics who conducted the research, denied the issue was specifically about Muralitharan. Elliott was happy with the recommendation.

"I'm happy with that [15 degrees]. It's a step in the right direction," Elliott said. "They've seen that a lot of bowlers today sit about 10 degrees ... and it's been shown in studies that's there's no real benefit until you get beyond 15 degrees.

"People assumed everyone was zero and if you had asked me two years ago I'd would have guessed that five degrees was a reasonable number of most bowlers but research has shown otherwise.

Unbiased experts gave their opinion on their expert analysis, not what the 'Asian bloc' thought about it. Actions are deceptive, Lasith Malinga, stange accents, first time my Dad saw him he shouted "That's a throw", yet Malinga has probably the straightest arm in world cricket.

This is a discussion that will never die, it's been going on for a hundred years plus, it won't stop now. Also, I never though Johan Botha has a chucking action, nor that Pakistan bowler (Shabbir Ahmed?).

 

[sohum]

I do respond, what do you want me to respond to? All you guys have thrown at me is 15 degrees and those tests? I have said why I dont think they should be the way to say he isn't a chucker or not. Seeing is believing, your a boring, lifeless nerd if your going to just read books and facts and not go out and see the world and that.

You haven't responded to the fact that 90% of world bowlers were found to be chuckers while using footage used in match situations--not just bio-mechanical tests. Your hopeless excuse is that anyone who looks at facts and figures is a "nerd" and hence incapable of making a well-rounded, reasonable statement, when the case is quite the contrary.

Oh and Usy, Iam a better bowler, at least I can bowl Off Spin, not throw it, it automatically makes me the better bowler.

Well, when he bowled with the static cast, he very clearly showed that his arm did not bend and got it to spin and hence he is clearly a better bowler than you. Although I really do not see what the debate here is since he has got more than 1100 international wickets and bowls deliveries that you probably don't bowl even in your dreams.

 

[Adrian Toole]

Honestly what are people thinking voting for Murali over Warne?

For the record, I still think that he is a chucka and no matter how many times the ICC changes the rules to suit him, there will always be that very definite cloud over him.

Other than that, you have to look at the quality of the wickets thay have taken

http://stats.cricinfo.com/guru?sdb=...edhigh=;csearch=;submit=1;.cgifields=viewtype

Taking 76 and 87 wickets against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe is disgraceful. Most countries never play those two sides but Sri Lank seem to line up all the time to play them.

Look at his average against Australia. It's 31, ten more than his career average. His average in Australia is 63

Warne was all class and quality about his wicket taking

 

[sohum]

Its not just me, there are millions of people who think the same, that he throws. They know he throws by watching the Cricket, they arent nerds who read "Murali has been cleared of throwing because tests prove it", and then say that he doesn't throw purely on that, thats just stupid - make your own judgement.

Since when did thinking become knowing? And since when did people who believe in science become nerds? If you're going to defy science you might as well abandon the internet, your computer, your home, your transportation--because all these came by because of "nerds" who didn't just "think"--they proved that what they thought was true. It's pretty obvious to me that you just have something against the man and refuse to believe the very thoroughly proved fact that his action looks like a chuck due to it being an optical illusion.

They can take me seriously because I watch Cricket, and I have watched Murali bowl since '03, witnessed Test matches where he has bowled Doosra's...

We cannot take you seriously because the evidence behind your strongest argument is some inner prejudice that defies all the scientific evidence behind our argument.

You can tell what a throw is, watch Cricket and you will see.

Since we are having a disagreement about the definition, would you be kind enough to define throw as you see it. And you cannot just say "if you watch cricket you will know" because obviously both of us watch cricket and we have different definitions.

Honestly what are people thinking voting for Murali over Warne?

For the record, I still think that he is a chucka and no matter how many times the ICC changes the rules to suit him, there will always be that very definite cloud over him.

Other than that, you have to look at the quality of the wickets thay have taken

http://stats.cricinfo.com/guru?sdb=...edhigh=;csearch=;submit=1;.cgifields=viewtype

Taking 76 and 87 wickets against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe is disgraceful. Most countries never play those two sides but Sri Lank seem to line up all the time to play them.

Look at his average against Australia. It's 31, ten more than his career average. His average in Australia is 63

Warne was all class and quality about his wicket taking

If you go back and read this thread in its entirety, you will find counter-arguments for every thing you have suggested. In fact, given the evolution of the argument over this thread, your post demeaning him looks quite silly.

 

[mattfb]

Yes but its true. Get over your science crap and watch the game. Get over the icc clearling him and watch the game. You can see how different he bowls to any other player. His arm is bent, just get over the ICC clearing him because he chucks more than anyone else in cricket.

 

[Skater]

Murali can't physically straighten his arm. It's not his fault. The laws of cricket states very clearly what a legal delivery is, and he bowls within those laws.

Murali does not chuck! The evidence is weighed against people who say he does. Drop it.

 

[Hooper]

Since when did thinking become knowing? And since when did people who believe in science become nerds? If you're going to defy science you might as well abandon the internet, your computer, your home, your transportation--because all these came by because of "nerds" who didn't just "think"--they proved that what they thought was true. It's pretty obvious to me that you just have something against the man and refuse to believe the very thoroughly proved fact that his action looks like a chuck due to it being an optical illusion.


We cannot take you seriously because the evidence behind your strongest argument is some inner prejudice that defies all the scientific evidence behind our argument.


Since we are having a disagreement about the definition, would you be kind enough to define throw as you see it. And you cannot just say "if you watch cricket you will know" because obviously both of us watch cricket and we have different definitions.


If you go back and read this thread in its entirety, you will find counter-arguments for every thing you have suggested. In fact, given the evolution of the argument over this thread, your post demeaning him looks quite silly.

I dont care, he throws. You just try and pick my words and try and make little sub-debates off them. I seriously don't care that you think its just my opinion, its not only an opinion - it's known by a lot of cricket fans that he throws. All you say is tests proved him - end of story. Iam sick of that B.S. Oh and I can't take you or Manee seriously if you think them tests make it 100%, that he doesn't throw, you are kidding yourself if you beleive that bullcrap. Throwing is when you bowl with a bent friggin arm and THROW it! Oh and I have counter arguments for anything you say as well...Every post your saying the same crap, so Iam having to say the same old reasons aren't I?

 

[mattfb]

I dont care, he throws. You just try and pick my words and try and make little sub-debates off them. I seriously don't care that you think its just my opinion, its not only an opinion - it's known by a lot of cricket fans that he throws. All you say is tests proved him - end of story. Iam sick of that B.S. Oh and I can't take you or Manee seriously if you think them tests make it 100%, that he doesn't throw, you are kidding yourself if you beleive that bullcrap. Throwing is when you bowl with a bent friggin arm and THROW it! Oh and I have counter arguments for anything you say as well...Every post your saying the same crap, so Iam having to say the same old reasons aren't I?

Thankyou for that, i am feeling the exact same. you saved me from typing it out, you defined the reason why he throws better than anyone else could. So everyone get over your stupid "the ICC cleared him". Go build a bridge and accept he throws.

 

[Skater]

I dont care, he throws. You just try and pick my words and try and make little sub-debates off them. I seriously don't care that you think its just my opinion, its not only an opinion - it's known by a lot of cricket fans that he throws. All you say is tests proved him - end of story. Iam sick of that B.S. Oh and I can't take you or Manee seriously if you think them tests make it 100%, that he doesn't throw, you are kidding yourself if you beleive that bullcrap. Throwing is when you bowl with a bent friggin arm and THROW it! Oh and I have counter arguments for anything you say as well...Every post your saying the same crap, so Iam having to say the same old reasons aren't I?

That is probably the biggest load of crap I have ever seen.

"Throwing is when you bowl with a bent friggin arm" :rtfl:rtfl:rtfl:rtfl:rtfl

No, it's not. Throwing is when you break the laws that state what a legal delivery is.

Don't try and deny fact. Murali doesn't chuck!!!!

 

[mattfb]

That is probably the biggest load of crap I have ever seen.

"Throwing is when you bowl with a bent friggin arm" :rtfl:rtfl:rtfl:rtfl:rtfl

No, it's not. Throwing is when you break the laws that state what a legal delivery is.

Don't try and deny fact. Murali doesn't chuck!!!!

Of course it is, bowlers are supossed to bowl with a round arm, not a bent arm. Im sure you know that this is true but you just dont wanna give it up now you've backed Murli.

 

[Skater]

Of course it is, bowlers are supossed to bowl with a round arm, not a bent arm. Im sure you know that this is true but you just dont wanna give it up now you've backed Murli.

No, no, the laws of cricket - slightly more authority than you - state what is a legal delivery. It makes no difference what you think. The fact is, he bowls legally.

 

[mattfb]

No, no, the laws of cricket - slightly more authority than you - state what is a legal delivery. It makes no difference what you think. The fact is, he bowls legally.

Well, who do you think chucks the most in international cricket. And please dont be a total d*** and say

"Well all the ones bowling now are all bowling legal deliverys according to the ICC"

 

[Skater]

Well that's not being a total dick, it's true, all bowlers in international cricket now are legal.

And you either chuck or you don't.

 

[mattfb]

Ok well what if your playing school cricket and some kid comes up and bowls with a bent arm. Everyne would go "Thats a chuck! You cant throw in cricket!"
I mean what would you go "Lets look at the footage.... OK he is bowling at a 13 degree angle and judging by the ICC laws which state you cant be over 15 degrees you are bowling legally! this kid doens't chuck!" ?

Or would you admit hes chucking, without knowing how many degrees his arm is?