Stuart Broad - is he worth his place in the Test XI?

But as said, this is a tactic he is encouraged if not told to bowl by his captain and the team management.

I didn't say it was his theory, or that he was doing it of his own accord.

To be fair, while hard to prove, anyone who's played cricket at any level can tell you that such an effect is real. Pressure from one end does help produce wickets at the other. It's is even an accepted argument for bowlers with not-so flattering records in weak teams to say that this is due to the lack of support they have from the other end over their career (read: Vettori). Not fair to totally write it off.

Pressure from one end CAN help produce wickets at the other, but if both bowlers are conceding at three an over then you can't prove that a batsman was got out due to this PERCEIVED pressure or if he just made a silly mistake. And even if a batsman was restricted so much he'd scored say 3 runs off 30 balls, you cannot conclusively prove that the subsequent loss of his wicket was down to that pressure or merely that he was struggling full stop. After all, what stops a batsman scoring - their inability to time or play the bowling or the bowling restricting them? It's like arguing if England bowled really well in the 1st Test or Sri Lanka batted poorly.

Consensus of opinion doesn't make it any more fact, a long while ago most people agreed the world was flat and if 50 people in a room said god exists and I was the only nay sayer, would that mean god exists?
 
Pressure from one end CAN help produce wickets at the other, but if both bowlers are conceding at three an over then you can't prove that a batsman was got out due to this PERCEIVED pressure or if he just made a silly mistake. And even if a batsman was restricted so much he'd scored say 3 runs off 30 balls, you cannot conclusively prove that the subsequent loss of his wicket was down to that pressure or merely that he was struggling full stop. After all, what stops a batsman scoring - their inability to time or play the bowling or the bowling restricting them? It's like arguing if England bowled really well in the 1st Test or Sri Lanka batted poorly.
Obviously it's hard to judge based off statistics alone. Such a judgement can only be made after watching the batsmen play both bowlers and following that passage of play as it happens. Because then it can become quite evident if a batsman got out due to a brilliant delivery or a shot made in frustration due to not being able to score, or if he was struggling throughout his whole innings. Boiling it down to such a simple emperical form is not the way to go. Trying to deny such a factor exists purely by statistics is akin to evaluating a player's technique or potential through his batting average and strike rate. It is so flawed.

Consensus of opinion doesn't make it any more fact, a long while ago most people agreed the world was flat and if 50 people in a room said god exists and I was the only nay sayer, would that mean god exists?
You're mis-interpreting me. I claimed it was fact because if you have played cricket, you'll see that such a factor exists in person. I could provide personal examples from my experience if you want, and I'm sure you'll find a lot of players who have seen it in effect too.

I used the point that it is often used as an argument not to prove it exists, but to support it.

And on that point, your argument is flawed. The number of claims passed off as facts that are actually facts far, far outweighs the number that are false. You're implying that a majority of claims made as facts are not facts, when it is actually the opposite.

And at no point of time was the general consensus that the Earth is flat, as happily proved by an episode of QI that I can link you too. It's a myth that people thought the Earth was flat, in fact there are tons of references in midevil text of a 'horizon' or the Earth being curved.

And again with the God argument. I'm going to ignore that it is a very controversial argument to begin with, and tackle why it's flawed. You're taking a selected group of religious nuts and putting yourself in it. It would be more fitting to say 'If I went to a reputed University or a room full of Theological and Historical experts', because that would be a more fitting analogy. The group of people I referred to who believe this factor exists are cricket experts, players, and users of cricket forums, and I think we can agree that this group of people are fairly well educated and informed, unlike you're room full or religious nuts who don't have a solid understanding of theology and history.

Your current analogy fits a debate where someone claims Sachin Tendulkar is the best batsmen ever because Indians think so. Not an argument where someone claims a factor such as pressure from one end leading to wickets at another exists because a cricket experts, players, and serious fans claim so...if you catch my drift?
 
I didn't say it was his theory, or that he was doing it of his own accord.

In which case I don't see how the cop he is getting for it is fair. All said, I'm still not sure his place is fully warranted.
 
I was surprised that Dernbach was called up as cover actually. I thought there would have been others ahead of him in the queue.
Not sure why the selectors have ignored Onions return to fitness. He may not be taking buckets of wickets at present but he keeps it tight, creates pressure and rarely loses his line and length like England did at Lord's.

On topic - drop him ;)
 
Dernbach is a talent, but way too raw to be called up as cover.

Indeed. An England Test seamer should be doing consistently well in Division Two - Dernbach has been inconsistent. No one can deny that the raw tools are all there though, just needs to work hard on his accuracy.
 
Simple, Broad sucks and doesn't deserve to be in the English XI. I would have many bowlers ahead of him, like Bresnan and Onions. The English are stupid for not dropping him, although I don't mind as it gives an advantage to other countries playing them.
 
In which case I don't see how the cop he is getting for it is fair. All said, I'm still not sure his place is fully warranted.

If he's being told to do it then he's daft, and doing himself no favours. Sri Lanka are currently in deep doo doo, but with three seamers and only two taking wickets we might let them off a bit (I doubt it, but we might) England won't want to turn to Swann.
 
I think as long as England is doing well that they'll be keeping Broad around the side - unless he's REALLY bad. That's what happens when you are successful, you can afford to carry guys who may not be pulling their weight, but are players you want to develop. Australia did it with Andrew Symonds in Test cricket there for a couple of years, he didn't do much, but was in a strong side and they had a lot invested in him and wanted him to succeed, therefore he got more Tests than he deserved. By the end, he was a pretty solid batsmen - it just took a while. England obviously want Broad to succeed, so he'll get a bit more time, and while they are winning it probably won't matter at all.
 
Thing with Broad is that he does have so much potential. And yea, England are going just fine with him in the side, so until the results are taking a dip they have no incentive to drop him for someone performing better.

Though I agree, based on how much they can contribute to the side, an attack of Swann, Anderson, Tremlett and one of Finn/Bresnan/Onions seems better.
 
it's different imo developing batsmen over bowlers though. Ok the results may not be taking a down turn, once again the other players are stepping up and carrying the wicketless broad today but bowlers are more prone to injury. if tremmers got injured before the indian series you're having to bring in another bowler and hope he can fill in for someone doing more than their fair share of wicket taking.

fair enough if all englands other bowlers were in their 30s and had a year or two left, but they don't. Also, Broad's not some young gun playing in a team of wise old heads. Behind anderson he's their most experienced bowler. age may be on his side but as far as results go considering his experience, they're not encouraging.
 
I'm not 100% convinced, or even close, that Broad is bowling short on instruction. I think he's just one of those who gets carried away with bounce, likes to make batsmen sway back and dance about every now and then but doesn't realise the real winner is the batsman if you overdo it.
 
Broad looks to be under so much pressure. I have seen a spell of him in the first innings of this test and he was all over the shop with line and length. He is struggling to shrug off the habit of bowling short of good length. His axing seems inevitable at this point in time.
 
Broad doesn't deserve to be in the playing XI. Finn, Shehzad and Bresnan (who is currently injured I guess?) are far better than him. Bresnan is not only better than Broad with the ball but also with the bat. Broad has played some really good knocks with the bat here and there but overall I rate Bresnan higher than him, batting and bowling wise.
 

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