The state of off-spin bowling/suspect actions/doosra bowlers worldwide

[ParkedTheBus]

The Doosra is important because it is an art that is mastered by few. There is no point restricting the creativity of the players. He(Ajmal) has been tested in various labs such as Loughborough et al and has been cleared of chucking. So he is not doing anything illegal. Yes, Broady and Vaughan might share photos showing his bent arm, but at the end of the day, his action is legal because it has been proved to be otherwise. Unless the ICC decide that his action is illegal after tests, he has full freedom to bowl it. And moreover, none of the umpires complained to the ICC, so why the fuss?

 

[Aalay]

Saeed Ajmal: "Whether I want to bowl in short-sleeves or long-sleeves is my decision. I don?t tell Warne what to wear in the commentary box"

I think he is angry on Shane Warne.

 

[War]

The Doosra is important because it is an art that is mastered by few. There is no point restricting the creativity of the players. He(Ajmal) has been tested in various labs such as Loughborough et al and has been cleared of chucking. So he is not doing anything illegal. Yes, Broady and Vaughan might share photos showing his bent arm, but at the end of the day, his action is legal because it has been proved. Unless the ICC decide that his action is illegal after tests, he has full freedom to bowl it. And moreover, none of the umpires complained to the ICC, so why the fuss?

Im all for innovation & the doosra has certainly helped off-spinner become dangerous again, since the art of traditional off-spin was seemingly dead before Saqlain invented the delivery in the late 90s.

But the 15 degree's thing that the ICC created after the Mural chucking saga in the late 90s - is similar to the Duckworth/Lewis rule for rain affected games, in which our fan have been told to accept it, but none of truly understand it & that lack of clarity has tended to divide opinion.

Non of us have ever actually seen a reported bowler tested & as i mentioned in the start of this thread, I am skeptical as to how bowlers like Ajmal/Hafeez/Senanyake for example have only been called once and cleared - while someone like Shillingford from windies has been called so many time sin the last few years.

They tell us the naked eye is a optical illusion blah blah, but i would really like see bowlers tested in the lab - because i dont see how they are saying Ajmal is fine - but Shillingford is not.

This is why the ICC has recently stated, they are looking to implement "in game live testing of actions" - that is the only way to conclusively get to the bottom of this, because their is a strong belief out their that some bowlers under this closed door lab test are able to look to be within the limits of this 15 degree stuff - but in match situations they could be going over the limit, when under pressure vs attacking batsmen.

When Ajmal was being hammered by Sammy in the T20 world cup a few months ago, this point was raised because Ajmal was bowler quicker balls and his action looked horribly jerky.

 

[fk915]

Its funny that broad is in shock ... guy who jumps on the ball and sometimes use spikes to shine it

 

[War]

Another shoot as doosra/quirky action bowlers:

New Zealand in West Indies, 2014 : You don't have to throw - Craig | Cricket News | West Indies v New Zealand | ESPN Cricinfo

Craig concedes he does not have the magic of the unorthodox finger spinners around the world - there is no doosra or carrom ball to flummox batsmen - but does not believe that inevitably prevents him from having success at the top level.

"I mean, you look at Graeme Swann, he's been a very successful off spinner and he doesn't throw the ball at all," Craig told the Dominion Post. "He's been a conventional off spinner so I think there's still a place in the game for those guys that don't throw the ball. It just means that you've got to work that little bit harder in terms of deceiving guys in the air and things like that, if you don't have the one that goes the other way.

 

[MUFC1987]

Its funny that broad is in shock ... guy who jumps on the ball and sometimes use spikes to shine it

I think this Broad stuff just stems from ignorance of the rules of cricket. You don't have to bowl with a straight arm, it can be bent. He just clearly doesn't know that and ends up looking like an idiot.

 

[karolkarol]

Never had an issue with doosra bowlers and as with anything a degree of discretion should be afforded BUT that jpeg of the delivery against Essex is more like 45 degrees than 15.

In match testing is the only way to put this entire debate to bed!

 

[MUFC1987]

Never had an issue with doosra bowlers and as with anything a degree of discretion should be afforded BUT that jpeg of the delivery against Essex is more like 45 degrees than 15.

In match testing is the only way to put this entire debate to bed!

Read my post above. You can bowl with a bent arm. It just has to stay bent. That 15 degrees is the amount of movement allowed in the action, not the angle the arm has to be.

The amount of people who don't seem to know this rule is astounding.

 

[War]

I can't speak for everyone, but I've always been aware of that rule & unless poster Karolkarol says otherwise - I don't see which part of his above post, suggest he isn't aware either.

 

[MUFC1987]

"More like 45 degrees than 15"

All I saw over the last page or so was pictures, not videos. How can you tell how much an arm is moving in the action from just a picture? You'd need a video to determine the 15 degrees of movement that is allowed. I'd bet my life savings that he's referring to the angle of his elbow in that picture, which has nothing to do with the legality of a bowling action.

 

[karolkarol]

"More like 45 degrees than 15"

All I saw over the last page or so was pictures, not videos. How can you tell how much an arm is moving in the action from just a picture? You'd need a video to determine the 15 degrees of movement that is allowed. I'd bet my life savings that he's referring to the angle of his elbow in that picture, which has nothing to do with the legality of a bowling action.

My god the smugness just oozes from your posts. What I was inferring was that I felt IN MY OPINION* that it would be quite an impressive feat to get from the arm position in his delivery stride to deliver a cricket ball with less than 15 degrees flexion. Probably didnt articulate myself particulary well but no need for you to be a d1ck about it!

*just checking I am allowed one of those

 

[MUFC1987]

Why does the arm position need to change? If he keeps it at that angle, (which you won't know without video) then it's perfectly legal. You're not making much sense. You're saying that his arm has to move to a different angle in order to bowl? Well it doesn't.

If you want to just admit that you didn't quite understand the rule, then that's fine. It's the fact that you're calling me wrong even though you then use another confusing sentence that makes no sense.

 

[War]

Ha aite you two gents, lets not go around in circles, about who said and meant what.

When people question Ajmal's action in those pics, obviously the naked eye action although its not the best way to judge (although I don't 100% subscribe to this) - would be one of concern. But deep down most people are aware of the rules & they do question Ajmal & other the doosra bowling bowlers, based the technology deducing the "flex" in his action is normal according the the "15 degree" stuff, as the below pic highlights:

The ICC says our eyes can't make a accurate judgement, yet pretty much every bowler that umpires calls with their "eyes", when the technology ends up checking them, are either being banned, have to modify his action or can't bowl a certain delivery.

As been mentioned before, the problem with the technology is that experts have suggested it is possible for the subject bowler to limit the movement of his arm (ie not to give it as much of a tweak as he would in a match in order to be within the 15-degree limit).

Here is where the question marks of Ajmal, Hafeez & Senanayke in particular is being raised.

 

[MUFC1987]

So you're saying that we shouldn't trust the scientists who perform the Tests, but we should perform someone who has taken a picture and a version of paint and throw Ajmal out of the game?

I've seen some junk science in my time, but that is some effort.

And who's to say that his arm always starts in the same position every time anyway? Pace bowlers certainly seem to struggle with that, even without the wrist/finger movement of a spinner, hence why not may pace bowlers can bowl with the accuracy of Glenn McGrath.

 

[War]

So you're saying that we shouldn't trust the scientists who perform the Tests, but we should perform someone who has taken a picture and a version of paint and throw Ajmal out of the game?

I've seen some junk science in my time, but that is some effort.

Haa, you could do whatever you want with that pic. If you know of or have a actual scientific pic of Ajmal's actual lab tests, feel free to post it, if it will make you feel better.

I just put that one in, because I saw it before & it gives a decent little visual illustration of the specific "flex" that the ICC allows in bowlers, that people get confused about when just reading the wording of it.

Its the scientist that have said the 15 degree rule, has the grey area I mentioned in previous post, so its never been 100% fool proof. And the ICC is aware of this, which else do you think they are planning to invoke live match testing?

MCC news : MCC reiterates World Test Championship support | Cricket News | Marylebone Cricket Club | ESPN Cricinfo

Plan for 'wearable testing' of suspect actions​

The possibility of testing suspect bowling actions 'in game' has moved a step closer, with the ICC set to present a plan for implementing wearable technology. Currently, bowlers must be sent for biomechanical analysis at the ICC's testing facility at the University of Western Australia.

A joint MCC-ICC project to develop a method of monitoring the degree of flexion and extension in a bowler's arm during competition - rather than in laboratory conditions - has so far progressed successfully, with the MCC stating that "recent studies had shown a strong correlation between testing in the laboratory and live testing in a match situation".

Geoff Allardice, the ICC's general manager of cricket, put forward the latest update to the MCC cricket committee, with the ICC now intending to move the three-stage project into its final stage.

And who's to say that his arm always starts in the same position every time anyway? Pace bowlers certainly seem to struggle with that, even without the wrist/finger movement of a spinner, hence why not may pace bowlers can bowl with the accuracy of Glenn McGrath.

Before I say anything here, why is whether his arm starts in the same position every time important?