The state of off-spin bowling/suspect actions/doosra bowlers worldwide

[War]

New Zealand in West Indies 2014 : Kane Williamson reported for suspect action | Cricket News | West Indies v New Zealand | ESPN Cricinfo

Not surprised about this, at times watching him bowl in recent months I did notice a jerk - but I wasn't sure.

 

[ferg512]

Why didn't they do something a couple of years ago? Hes been bowling the same way and now they decide to do something? I still don't know why they don't just allow it, makes the game more interesting and even between bat and ball as far as I'm concerned.

 

[War]

ICC annual conference 2014 : Illegal bowling action process under review | Cricket News | Cricinfo ICC Site | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[War]

Why didn't they do something a couple of years ago? Hes been bowling the same way and now they decide to do something? I still don't know why they don't just allow it, makes the game more interesting and even between bat and ball as far as I'm concerned.

Well as the ICC recently said, they are now going to crack down on bowlers worldwide who have suspect actions, that they feel umpires have not been cracking down quickly enough.

Plus as been mentioned before, off-spinners such as Narine & Ashwin has shown that by bowling the "carron" ball, they get a similar variation to the doosra. So that keeps such spinners relevant in this batter friendly age - instead of bowling the controversial doosra or with suspect actions.

 

[Epic]

Why didn't they do something a couple of years ago? Hes been bowling the same way and now they decide to do something? I still don't know why they don't just allow it, makes the game more interesting and even between bat and ball as far as I'm concerned.

I've really been giving a lot of thought to this, why not just allow it... other than the fact that it goes against tradition and will force the administrators to rework the rules and ex-cricketers who want technology but want the game completely unaltered to throw a fit, I really don't see what wrong could come out of it other than evening the playing field between bat and ball, and more importantly between the spinners and pacers.

To make a football reference, this isn't something like fans who want the offside rule removed or want a possession clock like the shot clock in basketball, changing or introducing any of those things would be to make a change to the core game, letting bowlers "chuck" doesn't really affect the core game for me, especially considering it goes on right now without many not even noticing.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

I kind of agree, you wouldn't want people throwing it baseball style but at heart it's a pretty odd rule. one of the problems with the murali case was that the physical deformity came into play and the rule is so unique that there are almost no other sports from which we could take examples from.

the closest thing I can think of is swimming where certain strokes have their own races and there's obviously rules around the forms athletes can take while racing in that stroke.

making the rule 45 degrees, a point where going over would confer no advantage but would still require bowling with a round arm, over the shoulder, action, wouldn't harm the game at all.

 

[Rahul_Rants]

What about Pragyan Ojha? I believe he has an iffy action

 

[War]

I've really been giving a lot of thought to this, why not just allow it... other than the fact that it goes against tradition and will force the administrators to rework the rules and ex-cricketers who want technology but want the game completely unaltered to throw a fit, I really don't see what wrong could come out of it other than evening the playing field between bat and ball, and more importantly between the spinners and pacers.

To make a football reference, this isn't something like fans who want the offside rule removed or want a possession clock like the shot clock in basketball, changing or introducing any of those things would be to make a change to the core game, letting bowlers "chuck" doesn't really affect the core game for me, especially considering it goes on right now without many not even noticing.

I hear what you are saying here - but with regards to the specific points in bold, when we talk about have a more even game between bat and ball, well i'd argue their a lot more pertinent ways this can be done: better pitches worldwide instead of roads, stop making bats bigger, making ground dimensions back to old days level.

We all whether bowlers whether its off-spinner bowling the doosra or fast bowlers who chuck, they get a added level of potency in their action than if they don't chuck.

There is so many player examples of this in recent years: Shabbir Ahmed, Shillingford, James Kirtley, Jermaine Lawson, Johan Botha etc etc - they became different bowlers when they had to remodel their actions to ICC standards & i don't think that's fair on batsmen, wit respect to the balance between bat/ball argument.

 

[Epic]

making the rule 45 degrees, a point where going over would confer no advantage but would still require bowling with a round arm, over the shoulder, action, wouldn't harm the game at all.

This. It's not cheating if the rules allow you to "cheat".

I hear what you are saying here - but with regards to the specific points in bold, when we talk about have a more even game between bat and ball, well i'd argue their a lot more pertinent ways this can be done: better pitches worldwide instead of roads, stop making bats bigger, making ground dimensions back to old days level.

We all whether bowlers whether its off-spinner bowling the doosra or fast bowlers who chuck, they get a added level of potency in their action than if they don't chuck.

There is so many player examples of this in recent years: Shabbir Ahmed, Shillingford, James Kirtley, Jermaine Lawson, Johan Botha etc etc - they became different bowlers when they had to remodel their actions to ICC standards & i don't think that's fair on batsmen, wit respect to the balance between bat/ball argument.

Yes those things would make the contest between bat and ball fairer, but I still question whether it's completely fair, what exactly is the role of an off spinner in a game where he can't bowl the doosra because under the current rules he can't bowl it legally because of how hard it is, let the illegal delivery become a legal one.

Yes bowlers get a bit of added level of potency in their action when they chuck, but from the way spinners are treated compared to the pace bowlers, I think they need it, the effectiveness of spinners is minimal to none outside of Asia and even in Asia it's neck and neck between the spinners and pacers and pacers literally get nothing out of the wicket, ofc in the end it's on the pitches, but I just wonder if we messed with the rules and juiced up the spinners if they would have more of a role to play in even seaming conditions.

You think it's not fair on the batsmen that spinners who were bowling the doosra illegally under the current set of rules are no longer effective?

 

[Aalay]

Sri Lanka Cricket News: Sachithra Senanayake banned from bowling due to action | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[War]

This. It's not cheating if the rules allow you to "cheat".



Yes those things would make the contest between bat and ball fairer, but I still question whether it's completely fair, what exactly is the role of an off spinner in a game where he can't bowl the doosra because under the current rules he can't bowl it legally because of how hard it is, let the illegal delivery become a legal one.

Yes bowlers get a bit of added level of potency in their action when they chuck, but from the way spinners are treated compared to the pace bowlers, I think they need it, the effectiveness of spinners is minimal to none outside of Asia and even in Asia it's neck and neck between the spinners and pacers and pacers literally get nothing out of the wicket, ofc in the end it's on the pitches, but I just wonder if we messed with the rules and juiced up the spinners if they would have more of a role to play in even seaming conditions.

You think it's not fair on the batsmen that spinners who were bowling the doosra illegally under the current set of rules are no longer effective?

Yea we all are aware that for a large portion of the 80, 90s until Saqlain invented the doosra & Murali started perfecting it - old fashion off-spin of your Lakers, Gibbs, Prasanna, Tayfield seemed toothless versus modern batsmen.

Of course G Swann showed recently, that foundation of the art can still be useful - but as i've mentioned before in this thread; Ravi Ashwin & Sunil Narine with their development of the "carron" ball & "knuckle" balls, have shown that off-spinners have a similar/equally potent variation, that can turn away from right handers, that can be bowled without a dodgy action that the doosra is bowled with.

 

[Epic]

The problem with using the carrom ball as an alternative to the doosra is while it's a wrong 'un, it's much easier to pick hence why you don't see it having much of an effect in the Test arena where concentration levels are much higher than that of the limited overs game.

Of the off spinners that deploy the carrom ball as their wrong un instead of a doosra, Narine hasn't had much of an impact in the Test game, Mendis was off to a good start and eventually the batsmen started picking him (not just in Tests) and he's been completely wiped off except for the odd game here and there, Ashwin is the only one that's had any sustained level of success and that's because he's probably got a better off spinner than the other 2, and even he has struggled to make much of a mark outside of Asia.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

The problem with using the carrom ball as an alternative to the doosra is while it's a wrong 'un, it's much easier to pick hence why you don't see it having much of an effect in the Test arena where concentration levels are much higher than that of the limited overs game.

Of the off spinners that deploy the carrom ball as their wrong un instead of a doosra, Narine hasn't had much of an impact in the Test game, Mendis was off to a good start and eventually the batsmen started picking him (not just in Tests) and he's been completely wiped off except for the odd game here and there, Ashwin is the only one that's had any sustained level of success and that's because he's probably got a better off spinner than the other 2, and even he has struggled to make much of a mark outside of Asia.

Having tried to bowl both, I'd say the bigger factor is it's harder to get revolutions on a carrom ball compared to a doosra. The carromball is reasonably hard to pick - both the offbreak and carrom ball can have the palm facing the batsmen, with fingers around the ball in a similar style. The doosra comes out of the back of the hand almost.

 

[War]

New Zealand Cricket News: Williamson banned from bowling due to illegal action | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[angryangy]

You do need laws that can be administrated at grass roots level. If you need to have some sort of expensive equipment to mocap players during a match, then it's a bad idea. That even rules out high level cricket in many countries, so you will face the same problem, players playing for a while and then being exiled when the scrutiny increases.

And if you want a higher tolerance, then how is that determined? The rule is designed that if the naked eye observes straightening then it's either illegal or not actually straightening. It's simple to apply, but boards have really got to want to fix it. The only reason players don't get spotted at domestic level in all countries is because umpires are letting it go on. It should be obvious to someone and the lower the level of cricket, the better. Once you have Test players being ordered to remodel their actions, you risk killing their careers and it is rather unfair to them because the game has basically told them for 10-15 years that they weren't doing anything wrong.

Though maybe the fundamental problem in the game is that everyone wants an augmented off spinner. Leg spin has all the tricks, but it takes time and hard work.