Top 100 in ODI history - 2: Tendulkar, 1: Richards

[sifter132]

Getting those vibes that it's time for another big thread... The all-time ODI discussion has got me interested in looking through cricket history again, so lets do something about it!

What is this thread?
I wanted to make an appreciation thread for some of the great players in cricket history. I plan to present 2 players from my top 100 every day to share his record, highlights, memories and some more info about him. Not a massive essay, I won't have the time...but just a reminder about each player, their mark on ODI history, and hopefully some youtube clips as well. For those who have read the draft threads, it'll be like the writeups I did for those. 100 players is deliberately ambitious - we'll see how it goes.

why choose ODI history?
Test cricket history can get a bit too...old...with pics of guys with killer moustaches with no footage of them, while T20 history is too new to even have much history. ODIs seemed a good middle point, and sometimes it's history gets overshadowed by Test cricket.

Why a top 100 list?
All-time ODI XIs are fun and everyone has their own, but I wanted to honour more players, but still wanted to keep the list idea. Hence a top 100. Lists are fun to dissect, and good discussion starters - and I'd like to start discussions in this thread, not just me writing stuff. Though preferably not discussions focused too much on how I'm an idiot for leaving out 'player x' , but instead discussing why I might have left him out and who I have put in instead ie. focusing on the players more and not my specific choices. Yes I don't mind sledging about the rankings - they certainly won't be perfect - but primarily it's an appreciation thread, not a critical one.

How did I fashion the list?
Basically I'm combining my top 100 list with players nominated by YOU. Speaking for me, the list is not just who has scored the most runs or who has the lowest economy rate etc. However, cricket is a numbers driven sport and guys with good stats will certainly be up the top. That said, you will find quite a few guys with average stats who are higher on my list than guys with better stats. I personally enjoy honouring players with short stints of real excellence rather than just looking only at career averages eg. Ricky Ponting in Test cricket in the early 2000s, I don't care what his career average ends at, I rate him very highly purely based on that imposing run he had (averaging about 75 over those 5 years). Hence you'll find David Gower here

I've tried not to overrate all-rounders, but let's be honest: doing 2 jobs at an international level is more impressive than doing just one. Fielding ability has also been considered, but not to overly nostalgic levels because 95% of cricketers are competent fielders - which is fine. I've also undervalued the current players a bit, just because their careers haven't finished yet and putting Virat Kohli in the top 10, just because he's playing well right now doesn't seem right at all. So be prepared to see your current favourites lower than you might think!

So in summary, my goals for the thread are:
*to start some fun discussions and debates about the values of players, and to hear your memories and reactions to each of the players I feature: why you like them, admire them, think they are overrated etc.
*to educate some newer fans on some older ODI players that may not know so well,
*to encourage both you and I to read up on the rich history of cricket, and finally
*to get myself posting more while there is not a lot of Aussie cricket on


The 100 thus far:
100 - Abdul Razzaq (Pakistan)
99 - Brad Hogg (Australia)
98 - Neil Fairbrother (England)
97 - Nick Knight (England)
96 - Gavin Larsen (New Zealand)
95 - Chris Cairns (New Zealand)
94 - Shakib Al Hasan (Bangladesh)
93 - Shoaib Akhtar (Pakistan)
92 - Allan Border (Australia)
91 - Damien Fleming (Australia)

90 - Gautam Gambhir (India)
89 - Courtney Walsh (West Indies)
88 - Mitchell Johnson (Australia)
87 - Sarfraz Nawaz (Pakistan)
86 - Shahid Afridi (Pakistan)
85 - Jonty Rhodes (South Africa)
84 - Graeme Smith (South Africa)
83 - Abdul Qadir (Pakistan)
82 - Damien Martyn (Australia)
81 - Michael Clarke (Australia)

80 - Steve Waugh (Australia)
79 - Nathan Bracken (Australia)
78 - Marcus Trescothick (England)
77 - Harbhajan Singh (India)
76 - Arjuna Ranatunga (Sri Lanka)
75 - Daniel Vettori (New Zealand)
74 - Mohammad Yousuf (Pakistan)
73 - Makhaya Ntini (South Africa)
72 - Hansie Cronje (South Africa)
71 - Darren Gough (England)

70 - Andy Flower (Zimbabwe)
69 - Ewen Chatfield (New Zealand)
68 - Andy Roberts (West Indies)
67 - Martin Crowe (New Zealand)
66 - Saleem Malik (Pakistan)
65 - Jason Gillespie (Australia)
64 - David Gower (England)
63 - Bob Willis (England)
62 - Mohammad Azharuddin (India)
61 - Kevin Pietersen (England)

60 - Herschelle Gibbs (South Africa)
59 - Shane Watson (Australia)
58 - Terry Alderman (Australia)
57 - Yuvraj Singh (India)
56 - Virat Kohli (India)
55 - Anil Kumble (India)
54 - Rahul Dravid (India)
53 - Clive Lloyd (West Indies)
52 - Allan Lamb (England)
51 - Malcolm Marshall (West Indies)

50 - Craig McDermott (Australia)
49 - AB de Villiers (South Africa)
48 - Chaminda Vaas (Sri Lanka)
47 - Kumar Sangakkara (Sri Lanka)
46 - Greg Chappell (Australia)
45 - Gary Kirsten (South Africa)
44 - Dennis Lillee (Australia)
43 - Andrew Flintoff (England)
42 - Hashim Amla (South Africa)
41 - Michael Holding (West Indies)

40 - Shane Bond (New Zealand)
39 - Curtly Ambrose (West Indies)
38 - Matthew Hayden (Australia)
37 - Chris Gayle (West Indies)
36 - Virender Sehwag (India)
35 - Brett Lee (Australia)
34 - Michael Hussey (Australia)
33 - Waqar Younis (Pakistan)
32 - Javed Miandad (Pakistan)
31 - Inzamam-ul-Haq (Pakistan)

30 - Allan Donald (South Africa)
29 - Andrew Symonds (Australia)
28 - Desmond Haynes (West Indies)
27 - Aravinda de Silva (Sri Lanka)
26 - Zaheer Abbas (Pakistan)
25 - Saeed Anwar (Pakistan)
24 - Saqlain Mushtaq (Pakistan)
23 - Gordon Greenidge (West Indies)
22 - Richard Hadlee (New Zealand)
21 - Dean Jones (Australia)

UPDATE!! Only 20 to go!!
12 Batsmen (ordered by nation & surname)
Australia (4): Michael Bevan, Adam Gilchrist, Ricky Ponting, Mark Waugh
India (3): MS Dhoni, Sourav Ganguly, Sachin Tendulkar
South Africa (2): Jacques Kallis, Lance Klusener
Sri Lanka (1): Sanath Jayasuriya
West Indies (2): Brian Lara, Viv Richards

8 Bowlers (ordered by nation & surname)
Australia (2): Glenn McGrath, Shane Warne
India (1): Kapil Dev
Pakistan (2): Imran Khan, Wasim Akram
South Africa (1): Shaun Pollock
Sri Lanka (1): Muttiah Muralitharan
West Indies (1): Joel Garner

20 - Imran Khan (Pakistan)
19 - Lance Klusener (South Africa)
18 - Joel Garner (West Indies)
17 - Shane Warne (Australia)
16 - Sourav Ganguly (India)
15 - Michael Bevan (Australia)
14 - Mark Waugh (Australia)
13 - Kapil Dev (India)
12 - Glenn McGrath (Australia)
11 - MS Dhoni (India)

10 - Jacques Kallis (South Africa)
9 - Muttiah Muralitharan (Sri Lanka)
8 - Brian Lara (West Indies)
7 - Shaun Pollock (South Africa)
6 - Ricky Ponting (Australia)
5 - Sanath Jayasuriya (Sri Lanka)
4 - Wasim Akram (Pakistan)
3 - Adam Gilchrist (Australia)
2 - Sachin Tendulkar (India)
1 - Viv Richards (West Indies)

DONE!

 

[Gaurav_7]

I love the second option. I've always had my interest in ODI Cricket and this would be so good. Also, have been in a few drafts already but, haven't done this before. And, as you said drafts restrict the participation. So, all up for a second option.

 

[RPHKR]

Top 100 players will be fine. Waiting for this to start.

 

[sifter132]

Yeah I like the top 100 option

For drafts, I was thinking of doing a T20 one in a couple of months. Maybe in August, just before T20 world cup to get everyone in the mood.

So...now that the broad idea of a top 100 is out there, anyone got some specifics for how a top 100 might work? You guys want to have some input? If so, how could it work?? I don't think we can have huge polls on here...
Or are you happy just reacting to whatever players I decide to put in there? Maybe I decide the list, but some of you can contribute by writing about your favourite players. I'd love everyone to come and discuss the players that get posted, I'm just trying to think if we can do something else to make it more involved.

One idea might be...I can list LOTS of players, maybe 200-300 and the keen posters can look through, make their own top 100 - PM it to me and I'll make a consensus top 100 featuring the preferences of those that voted.

I'll think on it a little more...meanwhile, if you've got a great idea, please share!

 

[Gaurav_7]

I think we need to have a particular number of people. Say about 10-15 or more or maybe less (depending on interest). Then, each of them can make their say top 100 ODI cricketers list? PM it to you. We can have points for each position. 100 for the first and it goes down by 1 for the next. Like, 99 for 2, 98 for 3...1 for 100. Then, for each player the points can be calculated. Players might end up on equal points, they can then be put up here with the participators and other people having a fair discussion and coming to mutual agreement over a players position. But, this might be too much work for you.

 

[sifter132]

Yeah could be a bit tricky, I think I'll just skip the first step. I'll basically let stats decide who is in the top 100 - and then the planet cricket community can help me order that top 100. Easier for people to do that as well, since I won't be asking them for 100 names out of the air, they'll have 100 names provided which they can then order.

Here's my idea for how it will work:
1) I'll make a list of the 100 highest run getters in ODIs and chose the 50 with the best average
2) Then a list of the 80 top wicket takers and chose the 40 with the best average
3) Finally, there will be 10 spots left for the best players who might have slipped through the net. I'll go through the list of 90 and nominate 10 players who I think were unlucky to miss out.

It's not a perfect method, but it's easy and with step 3) included should cover any notables that missed out. Either because they weren't in the top 100/80 for runs/wkt (eg. maybe older players, who didn't play a lot) or because their averages were low (eg. batsmen with high strike rates, but lowish averages).

Anyway, I'll get back with a list of 100 players. Then we can give people maybe a week to order them, then start presenting the list once I've compiled the votes

 

[Gaurav_7]

That sounds fine. I don't think there's too much interest in this though as no one except me and you have posted.

 

[sifter132]

Haha perhaps...I'll change the title to be a bit less ambiguous and start listing the players to help get something started.

Anyway, I have 113 players to choose from. The 89 players that the stats spat out (was gonna be 90, but Shane Watson appeared on both lists!), plus 24 of my 'wildcards'. It was gonna be 11 to make an even 100, but I couldn't decide and ended up with 24 Will be better that way though, the primary reason being that voters can now decide which 13 of the 113 are unworthy of a top 100 spot. If I just went with what was originally planned, then the 89 guys with best averages would get an automatic spot. Now those guys have a chance to miss out on the top 100 if no one rates them (eg. Ajit Agarkar...lol) Don't let me discourage anyone from voting for Ajit - underrated bowler, just an example

The nominees are...
Batsmen (ordered by nation & surname)
Michael Bevan
David Boon
Greg Chappell (wildcard)
Michael Clarke
Adam Gilchrist
Matthew Hayden
Michael Hussey
Dean Jones
Geoff Marsh
Damien Martyn
Ricky Ponting
Andrew Symonds
Shane Watson
Mark Waugh
Steve Waugh (wildcard)
Graham Gooch
Graeme Hick
Nick Knight
Allan Lamb
Kevin Pietersen
Marcus Trescothick
Mohammad Azharuddin
MS Dhoni
Rahul Dravid
Gautam Gambhir
Sourav Ganguly
Ajay Jadeja
Virat Kohli
Virender Sehwag (wildcard)
Navjot Sidhu
Yuvraj Singh
Sachin Tendulkar
Martin Crowe
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Javed Miandad
Mohammad Yousuf
Saeed Anwar
Shahid Afridi (wildcard)
Zaheer Abbas (wildcard)
Hashim Amla (wildcard)
Hansie Cronje
AB De Villiers
Herschelle Gibbs
Jacques Kallis
Gary Kirsten
Lance Klusener
Jonty Rhodes (wildcard)
Graeme Smith
Marvan Atapattu
Aravinda de Silva (wildcard)
Sanath Jayasuriya (wildcard)
Arjuna Ranatunga (wildcard)
Kumar Sangakkara
Shiv Chanderpaul
Chris Gayle
Gordon Greenidge
Desmond Haynes
Carl Hooper (wildcard)
Brian Lara
Clive Lloyd (wildcard)
Viv Richards
Ramnaresh Sarwan
Andy Flower (wildcard)

Bowlers (ordered by nation & surname)
Terry Alderman (wildcard)
Nathan Bracken
Damien Fleming
Jason Gillespie
Brad Hogg
Mitchell Johnson
Brett Lee
Dennis Lillee (wildcard)
Craig McDermott
Glenn McGrath
Shane Warne
Abdur Razzaq
Shakib Al Hasan (wildcard)
Ian Botham (wildcard)
Stuart Broad
Andrew Flintoff
Darren Gough
Graeme Swann (wildcard)
Bob Willis (wildcard)
Ajit Agarkar
Kapil Dev
Anil Kumble (wildcard)
Javagal Srinath
Shane Bond
Ewan Chatfield
Richard Hadlee
Kyle Mills
Danny Morrison
Daniel Vettori (wildcard)
Abdul Qadir
Imran Khan
Saeed Ajmal (wildcard)
Safraz Nawaz (wildcard)
Saqlain Mushtaq
Shoaib Akhtar
Waqar Younis
Wasim Akram
Umar Gul
Allan Donald
Makhaya Ntini
Shaun Pollock
Farveez Maharoof
Lasith Malinga
Muttiah Muralidaran
Chaminda Vaas
Curtley Ambrose
Joel Garner
Michael Holding
Malcolm Marshall
Andy Roberts (wildcard)

Whew! Now we have 113 names, what now? Well you've got 1 week to contribute to tell me how you would rank these 113 players from 1-100. Then I complile the results and start revealing the list, probably 2 every day would be my aim at this stage.

If you can't do a full top 100, but could handle doing a top 50/20/10 - please do! Even if you just want to put names in tiers without specifically ordering each one - go for it! eg. you might choose 20 and say, these are the top 20, or these are 61-70, whatever...All data will be relevant! But please try and be subjective, this is the top 100 players in ODI history - not ranked by favouritism, but by ability and performance.

So look through the names, order them as you see fit and PM me your lists! Or if you don't want to contribute - fine! I'm happy with my rankings :P

 

[Gaurav_7]

I can add other than these 113 players to my top 100, isn't it? (Haven't really gone through all of them) I'll get going with this in some time. I've plenty of time to kill in the office, so yeah!

 

[sifter132]

^Yeah that's fine. I started thinking about adding more to the list but I felt I had to draw the line somewhere. So there are definitely some well known players not on the list eg. Jayawardene, Harbhajan, McCullum, Walsh, Zaheer, Astle. I just felt I was adding them to be nice rather than because they were locks for a top 100.

Tip for those who want to try this - copy all the names into a spreadsheet in one column and then in the next give them a rating out of 10 or 100. Easier to sort that way rather than just looking at 2 names in isolation and saying 'oh this guy should be lower than this guy'.

And if anyone wants to use statguru to help look at stats...the cutoff for batsmen ended up being 3500 runs and for bowlers 125 wkts. Anyone under those had to get in with my 'wildcard'.

 

[Papa_Smurf]

So, in essence, you're using the same method as Wisden when they decided their 5 players of the century, but for ODI? I think a top 100 list is too excessive, because a) No one will care after 50, and b) you'd need more attention than present.

Good idea though. I'll probably post a top 50 sometime this week. Could do a top 10 right now.

1) Viv Richards
2) Sachin Tendulkar
3) Joel Garner
4) Saqlain Mushtaq
5) MS Dhoni
6) Wasim Akram
7) Michael Bevan
8) Sanath Jayasuriya
9) Waqar Younis
10) Lance Klusner

 

[Papa_Smurf]

11) Ricky Ponting
12) Muttiah Muralithran
13) Adam Gilchrist
14) Allan Donald
15) Glenn McGrath
16) Sourav Ganguly
17) Zaheer Abbas
18) Shane Warne
19) Richard Hadlee
20) Dean Jones

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

!'ll do 20 batsmen and 20 bowlers, think about it then slot them into a top 50. 100 will be pushing it.

1. S Tendulkar - just too many records
2. V Richards - very close 2nd
3. B Lara
4. MS Dhoni - best finisher
5. D Jones - innovator
6. S Jayasuriya - again, largely for innovation and being the best player for a world cup winning side.
7. M Bevan - probably would have been higher 4 years ago but dhoni has edged him out as the best finisher
8. Zaheer Abbas
9. R Ponting
10. M Waugh
11. S Ganguly
12. M Hayden
13. Saeed Anwar
14. V Sehwag
15. A Gilchrist
16. A De Silva
17. G Kirsten
18. Inzamam-ul Haq
19. Yuvraj Singh
20. M Azharuddin
21. C Gayle
22. G Greenidge
23. Allan Lamb

ok, managed 23 there, players that contributed in another discipline may rise up when I put them together, this is largely on batting (although I may have already let the other contribution cloud be a bit) Gilchrist for example will certainly leap frog a few in the final analysis.

bowlers

1. Wasim Akram - boring choice but I think boring choices are boring for a reason
2. A Donald
3. M Muralitharan - the best ODI spinner
4. J Garner - yorker master, I want to put him higher but with less wickets than mashrafe mortaza I just can't let him amongst that 3.
5. Saqlain Mushtaq
6. G McGrath - mr dependable in whatever format
7. Waqar Younis
8. S Pollock
9. S Warne
10. R Hadlee
11. D Lillee - surprisingly good in ODIs
12. C Vaas - chronically under-rated bowler
13. C Ambrose
14. G Larsen - a top class middle-overs choker, every team picks players like gaving larsen now, you won't find many players as miserly playing in the 90s. in some ways an innovator like dean jones and jayasuriya, albeit a lot less exciting.
15. D Gough
16. M Marshall
17. M Holding - really these two should be higher, but it's a pain just filling lists with west indian bowlers from the 80s.
18. B Lee
19 C McDermott
20. D Vettori


probably got a bit lazy at the end there. all rounders to slot in include Afridi, Kluesner, Kallis, Kapil Dev, Imran and maybe Symonds (fielding to be taken into account), Steve Waugh, Razzaq and Shakib.

 

[sifter132]

Good lists Will be added to my super spreadsheet. Also, you can refine or edit them later if you choose.

So, in essence, you're using the same method as Wisden when they decided their 5 players of the century, but for ODI? I think a top 100 list is too excessive, because a) No one will care after 50, and b) you'd need more attention than present.

Yeah you're quite right... I guess my original vision wasn't really for a comprehensive consensus, it was really just to post some profiles - kind of like the stuff we do during drafts. And then the problem was to do it in a non-boring way, so I thought about a top 100. So I've kind of backwards engineered it I definitely understand a top 100 is hard to do straight up, and honestly the more time people spend thinking about it the better.


In fact...it might be better to do it the opposite way - start by eliminating players rather than choosing the best. As I start posting the lower ranked guys, there will still be plenty of time to determine the precise order of your top 50/20/10 - and I could keep accepting submissions up til the very end really. So it's probably best to work out who the worst guys on my list are rather than the best right now.

Anyway...keep thinking about it. And keep posting or sending me PMs with what you've determined I'll start tabulating a groupthink top 100 on the weekend, and aim to start posting profiles next week.

 

[cricket_icon]

A top 100 is a great idea. I'm not sure if I'll have the time to post my own but I'll definitely give a top 20 -30 for both batsmen and bowlers a shot.