2022 ICC Men's T20 World Cup - Australia

Will die on the hill that he is an overrated T20 cricketer.
I think he's 'rated' about right. England won't be under any doubt about his record. But he's Ben Stokes and has a high ceiling.

I think there's only Hardik who would get picked ahead of him if other teams could pick him. Even then, the left hand option, an extra pace bowler and world class fielder, it'd be tempting for India to include them both.

With Morgs retired there's a place for a genuine number 4 but I can't help but feel that Brook or Livingstone would be a better option.
 
Amazing bowling by Ellis & Kanos amidst all the chaos! Not surprising they are our go to bowlers when the frontline pacers aren't playing.

Edit 1: Jinxed Kanos :(

Edit 2: Ellis took 3 for 20 :')
 
I think he's 'rated' about right. England won't be under any doubt about his record. But he's Ben Stokes and has a high ceiling.

I think there's only Hardik who would get picked ahead of him if other teams could pick him. Even then, the left hand option, an extra pace bowler and world class fielder, it'd be tempting for India to include them both.

With Morgs retired there's a place for a genuine number 4 but I can't help but feel that Brook or Livingstone would be a better option.

That is what I'm alluding to as being overrated. He's simply being picked because he's Ben Stokes and he's got that natural talent rather than what he brings to a T20 side on an average day. The main reason he gets in is because he offers the flexibility of a top six batter that can bowl 4 overs of pace but he's not particularly good (in T20s) at either of those on a consistent basis.

He's picked because he can be potentially aggressive when he's been taking his time more and more these days in the shorter formats to get his eye in and tee off whilst his bowling is quite toothless in T20s with his lack of variations and predictability. Rajasthan in particular were smart to try him out as an opener who barely bowled towards the end of his stint with them as they figured out he was a deadweight in the middle order and as a death overs specialist/regular 4 over bowler. I've had him in previously at four or three as his best position but I don't think he offers anything with either bat or ball that can be covered by the rest of the team.

And that is why I think he is overrated. As I said earlier, teams may want him in for that flexibility but most teams do not need such flexibility on most days as they've always got five decent bowlers from number seven to eleven and an adequate sixth bowling option that can also offer something unique with either bat or ball in the top six. His batting returns when compared to what a specialist batter may offer more consistently are also not that worthy either as you've said with Brook or Livo being the better bet. In his current playing style, I simply do not think Stokes is the key player that a quality side requires as many believe him to be based on his exploits in the other two formats which is the reason for him being a tad overrated personally. If I had to pick similar players I'd take before him, I'd say Hardik, Dre Russ, Neesham, MMarsh are all clearly ahead whilst I'd debatably prefer Shanaka, Pretorius, Stoinis, Green or even Sam Curran ahead of him. This is still why I'm puzzled over his ODI retirement because unless he intends to play in the IPL next season, he's got much more value being an ODI player where his skillset is a lot more appealing as he can still offer ten overs of pace (it is a lot more important to have ten overs of consistency and an average outing from your fifth bowler in an ODI than a hot and cold one) and be a very good batting option in the top six compared to most other players.

For the record I don't think Stokes is a poor T20 player though, I believe that if he were to give it the same focus that Dre Russ gives it for a couple of years he could potentially hone and finetune the skills needed to be an absolute baller in that format. That he isn't in said position would be a statement on how difficult it is to translate skills across formats and be a star in all of them rather than any indictment of Stokes' own ability.
 
Having said that I think having Cam Green ahead of him is a bit too premature now that I think about it. :spy
 
That is what I'm alluding to as being overrated. He's simply being picked because he's Ben Stokes and he's got that natural talent rather than what he brings to a T20 side on an average day. The main reason he gets in is because he offers the flexibility of a top six batter that can bowl 4 overs of pace but he's not particularly good (in T20s) at either of those on a consistent basis.

He's picked because he can be potentially aggressive when he's been taking his time more and more these days in the shorter formats to get his eye in and tee off whilst his bowling is quite toothless in T20s with his lack of variations and predictability. Rajasthan in particular were smart to try him out as an opener who barely bowled towards the end of his stint with them as they figured out he was a deadweight in the middle order and as a death overs specialist/regular 4 over bowler. I've had him in previously at four or three as his best position but I don't think he offers anything with either bat or ball that can be covered by the rest of the team.

And that is why I think he is overrated. As I said earlier, teams may want him in for that flexibility but most teams do not need such flexibility on most days as they've always got five decent bowlers from number seven to eleven and an adequate sixth bowling option that can also offer something unique with either bat or ball in the top six. His batting returns when compared to what a specialist batter may offer more consistently are also not that worthy either as you've said with Brook or Livo being the better bet. In his current playing style, I simply do not think Stokes is the key player that a quality side requires as many believe him to be based on his exploits in the other two formats which is the reason for him being a tad overrated personally. If I had to pick similar players I'd take before him, I'd say Hardik, Dre Russ, Neesham, MMarsh are all clearly ahead whilst I'd debatably prefer Shanaka, Pretorius, Stoinis, Green or even Sam Curran ahead of him. This is still why I'm puzzled over his ODI retirement because unless he intends to play in the IPL next season, he's got much more value being an ODI player where his skillset is a lot more appealing as he can still offer ten overs of pace (it is a lot more important to have ten overs of consistency and an average outing from your fifth bowler in an ODI than a hot and cold one) and be a very good batting option in the top six compared to most other players.

For the record I don't think Stokes is a poor T20 player though, I believe that if he were to give it the same focus that Dre Russ gives it for a couple of years he could potentially hone and finetune the skills needed to be an absolute baller in that format. That he isn't in said position would be a statement on how difficult it is to translate skills across formats and be a star in all of them rather than any indictment of Stokes' own ability.
I'd expect him to play IPL. It looks like the One Day Cup will be the early season tournament in England and there's no point him playing that.

I've said before, he plays so little T20 he's never really embedded himself into a defined role for England or any domestic or franchise team. Whether it's an opener, a finisher or a number 4. It's just, well Stokes will come into the side at some point. He did do that in the ODI side but even then it was more a case of Morgan and Buttler being players with higher strike rates in the middle order.

Agree, Rajasthan perhaps had the right idea but wasn't it also at the cost of Buttler opening? It was like one step forward two steps back. :lol

It's like because of his lack of time in the format he has been left behind, in the sense that a batting position is less important than a batting 'phase'. He's probably best at 3 or 4 where he has time; definitely agree, even when he goes wild he usually takes his time.

Partly why I think if a franchise picked him up, with a specific role in mind, and said we want you to do this and gave him time he'd be able to do it. He'd be able to fill some of the holes in the Mumbai side.
 
@Bevab Just one more thing about Stokes, something that you can't necessarily look at statistically is his mentality. He's a player for the big moments and big occasion. Wouldn't surprise me, if England got to the final, that he played a significant part as he did in his last two World Cup finals.
 
@Bevab Just one more thing about Stokes, something that you can't necessarily look at statistically is his mentality. He's a player for the big moments and big occasion. Wouldn't surprise me, if England got to the final, that he played a significant part as he did in his last two World Cup finals.

I agree on this, if there’s a big match in a critical situation and you need a batsman and can’t afford for him to lose that wicket I’d back Stokes out of every English cricketer currently out there everytime.
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Woody! :cheers

Completely changed the game in a single over.
 
An offie who hasn’t bowled before just because there’s two lefties at the crease in the death overs is very interesting.
 
Watching Woody bowl at this pace makes me wish that Umran delivered when we tried him. Sheer pace!
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On the other hand that should be out, Wade was clearly denying Wood space to attempt the catch.
 

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