22nd Match, Group E: England v New Zealand at Gros Islet

[ksduded]

PAK getting into semis is total BS, as they only won one game against a good team and they are in.

They were competitive during their losses.... lost to NZ with one run which could have gone either way, and made England play till the last over, and then beat a power packed South Africa.....

they are thoroughly deserving in the semis....

 

[MUFC1987]

Ha, I love this. We ease through this group and this game and all New Zealand fans can do is say that they're better and we were lucky that we're 'in form' or something. Can't you just admit that you lost to the better team?

 

[SciD]

The real fun will begin when India gets out of the tournament.

 

[King Pietersen]

Ha hold up. I never said KP had improved in the last year. So i dont know why you felt you needed to show me his recent T20 record, im well aware of it.

You said Collingwood had started to take T20 more seriously. Surely if that was the case he'd have improved his performances? He's been abysmal in the last year.

Surely you don't doubt Collingwood has all the skills to be an effective T20I batsman??.

I don't doubt he has the skills, but he needs to start proving he's got those skills. He's been abysmal in the last year, and a player of his ability should be playing better than he has been. He bats in a pretty key position at number 4, and we can't afford to have him averaging 8 with a strike rate marginally over 100. Even a young talent like Alex Hales would have performed better than that.

Haha Excuse me what?. Why is & when is the state of the pitch ever important in a T20?. That was a top SA attack & it was the same game where Morgan batted brillaintly. What kind of double standard is that?. Was the pitch different when Morgan was batitng?? Really now son..

Just thought it deserved mentioning that his only score of note in the last 2 years of T20 cricket came on the flattest of pitches; and even then he gave his wicket away after reaching 50. Morgan's innings was far more impressive than Collingwood's; though Colly's innings that day was good, we just need to see more of it.

Nah. Evne though IPL bowling is poor, its still better than our domestic T20. Its still a fair guide as to whether a player would be a good T20 player internationally.

- Its the same IPL that propelled Michael Lumb into the team currently.

- Australia picked Sean Marsh based on IPL performances.

- Mahela & Kallis revived their international careers as T20 players by learning to open in a T20 in the IPL.

- Yusuf Pathan got his international career going based on IPL performances

So its not wise to dscredit all IPL performances. You can definately watch a player in the IPL & judge whether he could have success in international cricket. Collingwood certainly come acorss as a batsman who has all the pre-requiste skills to be a good T2Oi player.

Michael Lumb was picked in Englands 30 man squad before the IPL started, and only played 4 innings in the IPL prior to getting selected for the England 15; one of those was a 1st baller. He was not picked on IPL form, he was picked because of his brilliant performances for Hampshire and for smashing England around alongside Kieswetter for the England Lions.

Where's Shaun Marsh now? He smacked the Indian bowlers around, but failed miserably at International level.

Mahela is a good example, as he's been example since being moved to open in the IPL; but Kallis still isn't a great T20 player. Scores far too slowly and makes more scores that are detrimental to his side than good for them. Seems to play for himself in T20, which is why he amassed so many runs in the IPL.

And Yusuf Pathan's been another huge success in the IPL hasn't he. IPL performances are no indication as far as International success goes; and Collingwood is further proof of that. Did ok in the IPL, keeping an out of form De Villiers out of the side, but he's done sod all for England.

Kieswetter must always open. He has never played in the middle-order role in ODIs & T20s domestically. His game againts the spinners looks a bit hit & miss. Dropping down the middle-order could possibly be as troublesome as when we picked Prior & G Jones to open in limited overs when they clearly never did it before domestically. If Trott can ever play in the T20 is to replace Lumb - which ATM is not going to happen.

Wrong. Kieswetter's batted in the middle order loads of times for Somerset. Batted in the middle order basically every match of the CL for Somerset IIRC. Langer played for Somerset last year, and it was generally he that opened with Kieswetter. I've seen Kieswetter batting as low as 6 for Somerset; so batting him at 4 and opening with Trott wouldn't be too crazy. Don't think it should happen yet, as you can't drop a potentially cup winning Captain, but he needs to start scoring some actual runs.

I really dont know what you have been watching if you telling me captaincy has affecting has affected Collingwood's fielding. You sure your skypsorts is working well my friend :laugh

Finally he is one of T20 bats. As i said above yes his record is not the best. But he has all the skills to do well in this format, its only a matter of time.

Im shocked to hear anyone question Collingwood's place in the T20 side. You defiantely are in a minority with this one since he is clealry safe in Andy Flower, the selectors books & probably 99% of England fans.

Don't doubt that his captaincy isn't working, but he certainly isn't the most proficient captain, and has admitted in the past that it's not a job he enjoys; and if he's not batting well, then what exactly does he offer?

Colly's fielding has been affected too. He generally hasn't been fielding at backward point, gave away a few sloppy runs yesterday and we've not seen any of the acrobatics we're used to seeing from him. It's like he doesn't feel comfortable fielding there when captain.

Don't think we should be dropping him yet; but much like Michael Clarke for Australia, he needs to start contributing with the bat. He's not scoring any runs of note, his strike rate is lower than we would expect from Collingwood, and he's not a good enough captain to be in the side for that. At the minute I wouldn't be too fussed if KP was skippering the side, and Trott was batting in his place. Trott wouldn't be doing as bad a job as Collingwood at 4 atm that's for sure. He's averaging 8 from 7 innings and unlike Trott who has an excellent record domestically (4 innings for Durham, average of 13), Collingwood doesn't even have that to fall back on. I thought Colly's place was secure until I checked out his performances and stats. He's done sod all in T20 to be a surefire pick for the International T20 side. He does have a decent record for Delhi though I'll give him that. Average of 40 from 7 innings with 3 half centuries. I'd just like to see him doing it for England.

I'm sure he'll come good eventually. But my point is that if he continues to perform poorly his place surely has to come up for some discussion? His captaincy, fielding and bowling isn't enough to warrant a selection if he's not batting well. If he continues to fail with the bat over the next 6 months or so, then KP should be given the captaincy and Trott brought in. He's lucky the team are performing well really, has allowed him to slip under the radar. Sure he'd have been under far more pressure if we'd been knocked out already, same with Michael Clarke.

 

[CG123]

Ha, I love this. We ease through this group and this game and all New Zealand fans can do is say that they're better and we were lucky that we're 'in form' or something. Can't you just admit that you lost to the better team?

Hu to you, what are you talking about?
I complemented ENG saying they were very well prepared for the tournament, while we weren't.
I said talent wise I think our side is better, but ENG actually thought outside the square which is why they are going so good as that's what T20 requires.
NZ pretty much just stuck out there ODI side, which is why we lost, as tactically we weren't prepared. That is why I proposed what I did on the last page.

 

[irottev]

Ha, I love this. We ease through this group and this game and all New Zealand fans can do is say that they're better and we were lucky that we're 'in form' or something. Can't you just admit that you lost to the better team?

You're illiterate. I said on paper and it's true. Your top 2 are no namers, the bowling attack is also pretty weak. The difference is our key players are in terrible form and yours aren't. We lost to the best team on the day. Doesn't mean England is a better side - as they aren't. Same for South Africa. England aren't better than SA. They just turned up for the occasion. SA are in bad form.

 

[King Pietersen]

We beat SA in the last 2 ODi series we've played them in, drew 1-1 with them in a T20i series, beat them in the CT and beat them in this tournament. Guess they were just out of form on all those occasions?

 

[superfreddie]

You're illiterate. I said on paper and it's true. Your top 2 are no namers, the bowling attack is also pretty weak. The difference is our key players are in terrible form and yours aren't. We lost to the best team on the day. Doesn't mean England is a better side - as they aren't. Same for South Africa. England aren't better than SA. They just turned up for the occasion. SA are in bad form.

Sour and Grapes seem to sum this guy up very well, Going home! (via Miami) he he.:crying

 

[MUFC1987]

See, this is exactly it:

'We have a better team' 'We just weren't prepared' 'Our best players were out of form'

All this is absolute rubbish. It's no wonder NZ never do that well, when everyone seems to think they have some amazing team that is just being in form away from beating almost everybody.

Oh, and lol @ 'no-namers at the top of the order.' Just because you haven't heard of them, doesn't mean that they aren't good. And on the subject of key players not being in form, our key player didn't even need to play for us to win.

 

[pcfan123]

Sour and Grapes seem to sum this guy up very well, Going home! (via Miami) he he.:crying

Yea just ignore him, I can't wait to see McCullum go for 3 ducks in Miami :laugh

 

[War]

We beat SA in the last 2 ODi series we've played them in, drew 1-1 with them in a T20i series, beat them in the CT and beat them in this tournament. Guess they were just out of form on all those occasions?

All true. But i'd say after that 2008 ODI series win in England was down to Saffies being jaded after a long tour, winnig the test series etc.

All the other victories its being a mixture of England outplaying them (probably gaining a bit of mental edge over them in recent ODIs) & the saffies chocking in major tournaments as usual.

They definately came into this T20 WC with alot of their players a bit rusty & out of form in Smith, Gibbs, Dumminy, VDM (who was on the bench the entire IPL), A Morkel. Kallis, Steyn, AB/Langevelt (to a level) where their only in form players coming into this tournament i;d say.

 

[pcfan123]

Yea the Saffers had even checked out before the last Test match. They won the series and then gave KP an easy 1st Test win as captain.

Morgan is the big addition here, id say he is more valuable than KP right now.

 

[War]

You said Collingwood had started to take T20 more seriously. Surely if that was the case he'd have improved his performances? He's been abysmal in the last year.

He did start taking it seriously along with the entire England team. Plus yes his performances has been abysmal.

But as i said, that isn't due to a lack of ability as a T20 player. Its just one of those cases in cricket when unfortunately a players record doesn't reflect his obvious ability in that form of the game.

I don't doubt he has the skills, but he needs to start proving he's got those skills. He's been abysmal in the last year, and a player of his ability should be playing better than he has been. He bats in a pretty key position at number 4, and we can't afford to have him averaging 8 with a strike rate marginally over 100. Even a young talent like Alex Hales would have performed better than that.

Well once you dont doubt he has the skills thats all that matters. He'll correct his record soon @ international level, of that im positive.

Just thought it deserved mentioning that his only score of note in the last 2 years of T20 cricket came on the flattest of pitches; and even then he gave his wicket away after reaching 50. Morgan's innings was far more impressive than Collingwood's; though Colly's innings that day was good, we just need to see more of it.

So what if the pitch was flat. It was a strong SA attack. Generally T20 pitches are always flat since its a prepared that way - since its predominantely a batsman's game. You wont see too much bouncy decks as we have seen in Barbados during this T20 WC around the world for a T20. You see beautiful batting decks like the ones you see during the IPL most of the time.

So what if he threw away his wicket. Generally in a T20 , 80-90% batsmen get out playing dumb shots going for big runs. Hardly ever does bowler get you out with a beauty in a T20. Its crazy to try to use this deatails to criticize Colly's innings that day based on that.

The IPL coaches aren't stupid. They know cricket, the international stars in the IPL are 95% of the time the best T20 players from each country. They payed big bucks for him even with his not so flash international & T20 & domestic record. Why?. Because they see his clear ability & he didn't disappoint. Come on noww..

As you said. We indeed need to see more of it sure. But no way is Collingwood's palce under threat ATM.

Michael Lumb was picked in Englands 30 man squad before the IPL started, and only played 4 innings in the IPL prior to getting selected for the England 15; one of those was a 1st baller. He was not picked on IPL form, he was picked because of his brilliant performances for Hampshire and for smashing England around alongside Kieswetter for the England Lions.

I know Lumb was picked in ENG provisional 30 man squad based on his batting for Hampshire.

But as i remember it (i could be slightly wrong here). That England 15-man T20 WC squad wasn't picked until almost the end of the IPL, after Lumb had impressed. Since going into the IPL the talk was.."who was going to partner Kiewswetter" & it was supposedly a battle between Lumb & Bopara.

Lumb clealry was the more impressive in the IPL - thus was correctly selected. But the selectrs then amdde the eror of still picking Bopara & leaving out Trott.

Where's Shaun Marsh now? He smacked the Indian bowlers around, but failed miserably at International level.

Failed msierably???. :laugh. KP my friend i know you got skysports so before i scream, i'll just say you are horribly misinformed about Marsh.

On planet earth averaing 37 in ODI cricket is not failing miserably. The only reason Marsh was dropped from the AUS ODI side, is because in the recent summer vs PAK/WI he was converting his starts. Plus AUS decided to pick James Hopes @ 7 to give them an extra bowling option.

Most AUS fans would tell you he should have been in the current T20 team ahead of Michael Clarke. But poor selection policies have kept him out of the team.

Mahela is a good example, as he's been example since being moved to open in the IPL; but Kallis still isn't a great T20 player. Scores far too slowly and makes more scores that are detrimental to his side than good for them. Seems to play for himself in T20, which is why he amassed so many runs in the IPL.

Nah i cant agree with that assesment of Kallis. He has been just as good as Mehela since he began to open in the last 12 months in the IPL & international cricket.

And Yusuf Pathan's been another huge success in the IPL hasn't he. IPL performances are no indication as far as International success goes; and Collingwood is further proof of that. Did ok in the IPL, keeping an out of form De Villiers out of the side, but he's done sod all for England.

IPL is form is not the perfect guide as to how you may go in international T20. But its still a fairly good judge. As i said you can watch a player & tell if he would go well in international cricket - thats not very hard.

Plus i dont see how you can say De Villiers was out of form during the IPL. He wasn't at all. If the IPL didn't have the dumb 4-player int'l player restriction rule both AB & Colly would have played in the same team for Delhi Daredevils. Its because Collingwood could bowl meant he got the nod over AB fairly regularly.

Wrong. Kieswetter's batted in the middle order loads of times for Somerset. Batted in the middle order basically every match of the CL for Somerset IIRC. Langer played for Somerset last year, and it was generally he that opened with Kieswetter. I've seen Kieswetter batting as low as 6 for Somerset; so batting him at 4 and opening with Trott wouldn't be too crazy. Don't think it should happen yet, as you can't drop a potentially cup winning Captain, but he needs to start scoring some actual runs.

Made a slight typo. I meant to say he has never "had success" batting in middle-order in domestic List A & T2O. In limited overs cricket, he best game is clearly opening, seeing him bat over the years he doesn't look like he has has the game to play spin in the middle-order well.

Kieswetter is our main ODI & T20 opener forever now. Strauss, Lumb & Trott have to trash it out for the other opening spot in ODIs & T20s, as we look ahead.

Don't doubt that his captaincy isn't working, but he certainly isn't the most proficient captain, and has admitted in the past that it's not a job he enjoys; and if he's not batting well, then what exactly does he offer?

Why isn't his captaincy poroficient?. I have seen no evidence of this in recent times in T20s.

I think Colly has gotten over the talk that he doesn't enjoy captaincy when he resigned the post in the ODI side in 2008 home summer. Now that Strauss is the test & ODI captain. I think Colly is fine with just leading us in the short T20 format.

Colly's fielding has been affected too. He generally hasn't been fielding at backward point, gave away a few sloppy runs yesterday and we've not seen any of the acrobatics we're used to seeing from him. It's like he doesn't feel comfortable fielding there when captain.

Although its true he hasn't been fiedlign at his trademark backward point as T20 captain regularly, i think you are making wayyyyy too big a deal out of it. Maybe he feels he needs to be closer to bowler at mid-on as captain or something....its a non issue

Don't think we should be dropping him yet; but much like Michael Clarke for Australia, he needs to start contributing with the bat. He's not scoring any runs of note, his strike rate is lower than we would expect from Collingwood, and he's not a good enough captain to be in the side for that. At the minute I wouldn't be too fussed if KP was skippering the side, and Trott was batting in his place. Trott wouldn't be doing as bad a job as Collingwood at 4 atm that's for sure. He's averaging 8 from 7 innings and unlike Trott who has an excellent record domestically (4 innings for Durham, average of 13), Collingwood doesn't even have that to fall back on. I thought Colly's place was secure until I checked out his performances and stats. He's done sod all in T20 to be a surefire pick for the International T20 side. He does have a decent record for Delhi though I'll give him that. Average of 40 from 7 innings with 3 half centuries. I'd just like to see him doing it for England.

I'm sure he'll come good eventually. But my point is that if he continues to perform poorly his place surely has to come up for some discussion? His captaincy, fielding and bowling isn't enough to warrant a selection if he's not batting well. If he continues to fail with the bat over the next 6 months or so, then KP should be given the captaincy and Trott brought in. He's lucky the team are performing well really, has allowed him to slip under the radar. Sure he'd have been under far more pressure if we'd been knocked out already, same with Michael Clarke.

Firslty no way can you compare Colly & Clarke as T20 batsmen or their current situtations.

Almost every san AUS fan (plus all i have seen on this forum) would say Clarke is utter crap T20 batsman & should not be in AUS T20 at all. The only reaosn he playign is because the selectors want to use the T20 format to fruther aid in grooming him as Ponting's long term captaincy successor. Clarke is lucky the other 10 memebers of the AUS T20 is so good, thus is masking his inept performances. As i mentioned before S Marsh should have been in the team ahead of him -w ith either WHite or Haddin as skipper.

Collingwood on the other hand is very good T20 player as all the attributes that you would want for that format as batsman. Its just that he unfortunately hasn't got the runs @ international T20 that relfects his ability in that format.

No way again should Trott replace him especially to bat @ 4. Didn't you watch our two T20I vs Pakistan in Dubai as few months back?. Didn't you see how Trotty style was very much that of man who takes his time a la Kallis, Jayawardene?.

A T20 number 4 can't be batting like that. He has to be a batsman capable of scoring rapidly & clearing the fence. Thats clearly not a like-for-like replacements for Colly potentially. As i said before if Trott is to paly in the T20 team it has to be as an opener, since that suits his game best. He could bat @ 3 too, but given thats KP role forever, opening alone for him.

We aren't at the stage yet where Collys place in the T20 team needs to be questioned at all, no way. Once you agree that he has the obvious skills to have a better T20I record. The approach you should have is to patiently wait & speak encouragingly that Colly corrects that little fault instead of questioning his place in the T20 side. Since a performing Collingwood makes our T20 top-order & overall balance much stronger - than a T20 team without him. So ease man...