All Time XI of different cricketers

Mate, if you're going to cop out and not even attempt to answer my question about Hayden vs Hobbs, then I see no reason why I should try and justify an argument I didn't even start. I've not once tried to compare Richards to Gavaskar, that's all you. My whole argument has been based on the fact that Hayden's been picked. I happen to rate Gavaskar up there with the greatest openers of all-time, so I'm not going to waste my time crawling through hundreds of scorecards to try and back up an argument I've not even begun to get involved in.

Argument you didn't even start? Your the one going after me from your 1st post in this thread. Your the one questioning my choice, I can choose whoever I want to. Who the fearsome tweak are you for me to explain my self to you, some sort of a tweaking expert?
Like I told you go back and look at your thread and you will see a different XI. I picked Hayden because I think he is great opener, the greatest one of our generation and so far only Smith has come close to him.
I made my XI and I like it, if you don't like it make your own and do whit it as you please.
Stop being a jackass and questioning my opinion.
 
Your the one questioning my choice

Well as this is a cricket discussion forum, isn't that what you kind of signed up for? People will discuss and have their own opinions about each and every subject. KP didn't say you're a dumb-ass for picking Hayden, he just told you his own opinion on the matter. He believes that Hobbs is better, and that's his opinion on the subject. You don't and and thus you put Hayden on your list, because it's your list and you rate him higher, which you have made evident, albeit in a weird manner, but yeah. Fair enough I suppose, but you could have handled it much better.

KP also should have laid the point to rest. You said he 'did his thing for over 100+ tests' and that's why you picked him. But he continued to question you, despite you giving him a reason, which even I found odd. So yeah, both of you are in the wrong, in the way it was handled. You could have responded in a much better way, while KP could have accepted your reasoning's.

Besides, it's a useless argument, because the spot clearly belongs to BJ Walting, due to his incredible average. So yeah, you guys wasted all of that time, and were still wrong in all ways. So in the end... I win!
 
Argument you didn't even start?

I was alluding to the Barry Richards vs Sunil Gavaskar argument that you decided to fabricate, despite the fact it was quite clearly Matthew Hayden's selection that I was disputing.

Also, this is an internet forum, if you don't like people questioning your opinion then your in the wrong place.

As for continuing the argument after the 'did his thing for 100 Tests' comment. I don't believe playing a load of games is enough of a basis for picking a player, if it was then Mohammed Ashraful would be coming into consideration soon. That's why I continued the discussion, I wanted to know if you could back up your selection. You obviously took it as a personal attack, and have since gone off on one.

Sehwag's on a par with Hayden in the modern era as well AFAIC. Both flat track bullies that would have struggled to make the sheer amount of runs they have in previous eras, against quality fast bowling. Smith's a better opening batsman than Hayden, but he's still not anywhere near the all-time greats.
 
No he keeps wanting me to explain to him why I have Hayden over about 5 other batsman, I do because I can. If it makes him happy he can copy my lineup and take out Hayden and put whoever he wants in there.
I think Hayden works well with the lineup, he is a attacking batsman not that there is a shortage of but I think he would partner Gavaskar really well.

Dare added 8 Minutes and 18 Seconds later...

I was alluding to the Barry Richards vs Sunil Gavaskar argument that you decided to fabricate, despite the fact it was quite clearly Matthew Hayden's selection that I was disputing.

You were disputing my selection? Someone I selected for my team, where the fearsome tweak does that make sense.

Also, this is an internet forum, if you don't like people questioning your opinion then your in the wrong place.

No I don't like people trying to force their opinion on me, just because you don't think Hayden isn't good enough it doesn't mean I have to too. You got yours I got mine, get on with your life...

As for continuing the argument after the 'did his thing for 100 Tests' comment. I don't believe playing a load of games is enough of a basis for picking a player, if it was then Mohammed Ashraful would be coming into consideration soon. That's why I continued the discussion, I wanted to know if you could back up your selection. You obviously took it as a personal attack, and have since gone off on one.

No the requirement is doing it consistently for the most part over those 100+ tests, which Hayden has done. Just like most other batsman he has had weak patches in his career but overall he has done well enough in his 100+ tests.


Sehwag's on a par with Hayden in the modern era as well AFAIC. Both flat track bullies that would have struggled to make the sheer amount of runs they have in previous eras, against quality fast bowling. Smith's a better opening batsman than Hayden, but he's still not anywhere near the all-time greats.

Well as far as you are concerned is for you and AFAIC Hayden is good enough to be in a all time XI, you got yours I got mine leave it alone.

Dare added 2 Minutes and 35 Seconds later...

1. Sunil Gavaskar
2. Jack Hobbs
3. Don Bradman
4. Viv Richards
5. Garry Sobers
6. Imran Khan (c)
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Shane Warne
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Glenn McGrath
11. Mutiah Muralitharan

There you go happy now? Or do you want me to take out Gavaskar and put in Richards?
 
No he keeps wanting me to explain to him why I have Hayden over about 5 other batsman, I do because I can. If it makes him happy he can copy my lineup and take out Hayden and put whoever he wants in there.

It's the discussion section of an internet cricket forum. Of course I'm going to ask people to explain their opinions. This place would be incredibly dull if we all went around applauding everyone for their opinions, not questioning anything.

I think Hayden works well with the lineup, he is a attacking batsman not that there is a shortage of but I think he would partner Gavaskar really well.

At last some sort of explanation, still a pretty weak one considering Richards was as destructive as Hayden (check his 325 in a 5 and a half hour day against Lillee for example) but was actually technically sound, and capable of scoring runs on wickets that offered something to the bowling side. I just cannot see the logic behind having Hayden in the side. He was a good Test opener, but I'm failing to see how he could possibly be considered the 2nd greatest of all-time.

King Pietersen added 6 Minutes and 55 Seconds later...

You were disputing my selection? Someone I selected for my team, where the flip does that make sense.

Yeah. I was disputing the selection. I was challenging it. I was in disagreement with it. How does it not make sense? The point was, I never disputed the selection of Gavaskar, so why on earth you were asking me to prove why Richards was a better player I don't know.

No I don't like people trying to force their opinion on me, just because you don't think Hayden isn't good enough it doesn't mean I have to too. You got yours I got mine, get on with your life...

Once again, key word for this section of the forum, discussion. I wasn't forcing my opinion, I was trying to get a discussion going.

No the requirement is doing it consistently for the most part over those 100+ tests, which Hayden has done. Just like most other batsman he has had weak patches in his career but overall he has done well enough in his 100+ tests.

I don't think doing 'well enough' should be criteria for including someone in an All-time XI, especially in a vital position such as opening the batting. They should be exceptional cricketers that played well against quality bowling/batting in all conditions, and from my perspective, Hayden didn't do that.

Well as far as you are concerned is for you and AFAIC Hayden is good enough to be in a all time XI, you got yours I got mine leave it alone.

Again, what's wrong with starting a discussion within the Cricket Discussion section?

1. Sunil Gavaskar
2. Jack Hobbs
3. Don Bradman
4. Viv Richards
5. Garry Sobers
6. Imran Khan (c)
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Shane Warne
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Glenn McGrath
11. Mutiah Muralitharan

There you go happy now? Or do you want me to take out Gavaskar and put in Richards?

:laugh You're missing the point entirely. I was trying to get a discussion going, I wasn't trying to force my opinion on you. If you want Hayden in your side then have him in there, I was just wondering if you could justify that selection with something more than the amount of Test matches he played.

Again with the Gavaskar/Richards, where did that come from? I've not questioned Gavaskar once.
 
It's the discussion section of an internet cricket forum. Of course I'm going to ask people to explain their opinions. This place would be incredibly dull if we all went around applauding everyone for their opinions, not questioning anything.

There is a big difference between questioning an opinion and trying to force yours on someone, something you and aussieben always try/tried to do.

At last some sort of explanation, still a pretty weak one considering Richards was as destructive as Hayden (check his 325 in a 5 and a half hour day against Lillee for example) but was actually technically sound, and capable of scoring runs on wickets that offered something to the bowling side.

Here we tweaking go again, dude just give it a tweaking rest. He aint getting into my XI with his 4 tweaking tests, I don't care who says he is the best, there are about a dozen that I would include over him.

I just cannot see the logic behind having Hayden in the side. He was a good Test opener, but I'm failing to see how he could possibly be considered the 2nd greatest of all-time.

Do I think he is 2nd best? Probably not. Do i think he would work well with a team like this? Hell yes! Like I said before its not a big loss taking him out and putting someone else in. He has credentials to his name, he did his thing well enough for years.
As you see I took out Hayden and put in Hobbs now just leave it alone.

Dare added 8 Minutes and 12 Seconds later...

You want some examples here they are.

Hobbs played in 3 different countries (England, South Africa and Australia), never went to the sub continent, probably never faced a bowler like Murali, Kumble on spinning wickets.

Hayden played all over the world, faced different bowlers on all kinds of different pitches. Despite your belief not every wicket is flat these days. He has one of the best conversion rates by a opener, he did well in India as well as at home. Were the Aussie pitches really the flattest in the world?

One other thing. Can you find for me the bowlers that Hobbs faced? No doubt its hard facing bowlers on uncovered pitches but really who were they?
 
You want some examples here they are.

Hobbs played in 3 different countries (England, South Africa and Australia), never went to the sub continent, probably never faced a bowler like Murali, Kumble on spinning wickets.

Hayden played all over the world, faced different bowlers on all kinds of different pitches. Despite your belief not every wicket is flat these days. He has one of the best conversion rates by a opener, he did well in India as well as at home. Were the Aussie pitches really the flattest in the world?

One other thing. Can you find for me the bowlers that Hobbs faced? No doubt its hard facing bowlers on uncovered pitches but really who were they?

At last, some bloody discussion.

Not every pitch that Hayden played on was flat, but it's no co-incidence that Hayden never made substantial, chanceless runs on a pitch that offered something for seam bowling, against good seam bowlers. I've never doubted Hayden's talents against spin bowling either, that's the 1 thing he's got going for him.

As for the bowlers Hobbs played against;

Against South Africa he scored big runs against a highly regarded leg-break bowler Aubrey Faulkner; Jimmy Blanckenberg who was a medium pacer with unerring accuracy and movement and was said to have been a real handful on the matted wickets of SA; Bert Vogler who in his time was seen as the best bowler in the world and bowled a variety of medium pace and legbreaks. He apparently could deliver the off-break with a leg-break action, and was incredibly difficult to pick.

Against Australia he scored big runs against Tibby Cotter who was supposedly incredibly fast. He was short but generated extreme pace from a strong chest and shoulders. It's said he actually broke stumps or bails on at least 20 occasions due to his extreme pace; Ranji Hordern a bowler that's been compared to Ajantha Mendis and was said to have mastered the googly like no other Australian (including the likes of Clarrie Grimmet and Bill O'Reilly); Jack Gregory a bowler that's been compared to the West Indian Wes Hall. He was a giant of a man that bowled incredibly fast, and was very unpredictable. But he's regarded as a fine, fine bowler;

The more well renowned Australian's include Arthur Mailey, a leg-spin bowler that was said to have turned the ball a mile and had incredible detirmination and would never give up his search for wickets; Clarrie Grimmett, a fine leg-break bowler, one of the best of all-time. He bowled with incredible accuracy, had a wealth of variation and a fine temperament.

Then from the West Indies Hobbs would have faced Herman Griffith, a very accurate, patient and talented seam bowler from Barbados; and Learie Constantine, who bowled with a bounding run, a high, smooth action and considerable pace. He was a fine cricketer.

Then not forgetting the guys Hobbs would have faced in Domestic cricket, where he made an unprecedented 199 FC centuries. He'd have faced guys like Harold Larwood, Sydney Barnes, Maurice Tate, Headley Verity, Bill Voce and Wilfred Rhodes. Hobbs faced some mighty fine bowling, in an era of uncovered wickets, many of which would have been wet wickets. He was also regarded as a better player on wet wickets than Sir Don Bradman.

From Cricinfo:

"An astonishing statistical fact about The Master is that of the 130 centuries to his name in County cricket, 85 were scored after the war of 1914-1918; that is, after he had entered middle-age. The more his years increased the riper his harvests. From 1919 to 1928 his seasons' yields were as follows:

1919 2,594 runs average 60.32
1920 2,827 runs average 58.89
1921 312 runs average 78.00
(a season of illness)
1922 2,552 runs average 62.24
1923 2,087 runs average 37.94
1924 2,094 runs average 58.16
1925 3,024 runs average 70.32
1926 2,949 runs average 77.60
1927 1,641 runs average 52.93
1928 2,542 runs average 82.00

I never saw him make a bad or a hasty stroke. Sometimes, of course, he made the wrong good stroke, technically right but applied to the wrong ball. An error of judgment, not of technique. He extended the scope of batsmanship, added to the store of cricket that will be cherished, played the game with modesty, for all his mastery and produce, and so won fame and affection, here and at the other side of the world."

Hobbs' batting partner for a lot of his Test career, Herbert Sutcliffe had this to say about him: "I was his partner on many occasions on extremely bad wickets, and I can say this without any doubt whatever that he was the most brilliant exponent of all time, and quite the best batsman of my generation on all types of wickets. On good wickets I do believe that pride of place should be given to Sir Don Bradman. I had a long and happy association with Sir Jack and can testify to his fine character."

You talk about Hayden scoring runs at a good average in 100 Test matches, Hobbs averaged 50.70 in 834 FC matches, in an era of some magnificent bowlers, uncovered pitches and no helmets. He's one of the greatest batsmen of all-time, let alone openers. He stands above them all as far as opening the batting goes, with only Herbert Sutcliffe, Barry Richards and possibly Sunil Gavaskar coming anywhere close in my eyes. Brilliant, brilliant cricketer, and a magnificent opening batsman.
 
You're missing the point entirely.

No I'm not missing the point, because clearly my team is not finished until I have the guys you want in my team.

Now where would you compare those bowlers you named to the likes of Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh, Pollock, Ntini, Donald, Akhtar, Murali, Kumble, Harimson, Flintoff, Vaas. How would they do on those uncovered pitches if they did so well on "flat wickets"?

Hayden played 295 First Class matches, scored 79 centuries in 2 of the best domestic leagues. Great record without a doubt.

Gavaskar dominated the best bowling attack of all time on uncovered pitches, home and away. Could make a argument for him being the greatest opener, not Hobbs. Many people consider him as one of the best batsman not just openers but overall.

Hobbs played 900 First Class matches, no wonder he scored that many centuries. Half the time the attacks he faced were average at best. Did every one of his domestic matches have Barnes, Larwood, Tait, Rodes? Dont think so.

The fact that your going after me for including Hayden over Hobbs and then saying Richards would be closer to Hobbs then Gavaskar is a joke in it self. If Hobbs is the best opener of all time the Sunny is the clear #2.
 
Mate, if you're going to cop out and not even attempt to answer my question about Hayden vs Hobbs, then I see no reason why I should try and justify an argument I didn't even start. I've not once tried to compare Richards to Gavaskar, that's all you. My whole argument has been based on the fact that Hayden's been picked. I happen to rate Gavaskar up there with the greatest openers of all-time, so I'm not going to waste my time crawling through hundreds of scorecards to try and back up an argument I've not even begun to get involved in.



The double hundred against India was in the 1st innings, and from the highlights I've seen of that game, the pitch wasn't spinning much, and India happened to go on and make over 500 in reply to Australia's innings. Hayden was always a very talented player of spin bowling though, it's his ability against good quality seam bowling where the problems lie. Luckily for Hayden he played in an era of flat pitches and slim fast bowling stocks.

The innings in Durban was an example of Hayden cashing in once the pitch had flattened out and a matter of scoring runs against bowlers in Pollock and Ntini that were either past their best or never really that good. The runs at Perth against England weren't that impressive either. The pitch didn't do that much (certainly not enough for England to be bowled out for 74 2nd time round), and the attack was pretty mediocre with Caddick, Hoggard, Jones, Wright and Giles; and his runs in Melbourne against basically the same attack were very fortunate, given the fact he was out lbw twice before reaching 13 but was incorrectly given not out.

Don't get me wrong, I do rate Matthew Hayden, it's hard not to rate a batsman that's made 30 Test hundreds, but he simply wasn't good enough to be rated as the 2nd best Test opener of all-time. Very good against spin bowling, but against top quality seam bowling he was often found out.
I just find it hard to conprehend that a guy who played the majority of his career in Brisbane with the record he has could possibly be a flat track bully. Certainly toward the end of his career he lost a bit of his aura and whenever his form dipped it would be him being too aggressive but people forget how he played at his best, in his prime it didn't matter what attack was bowling to him. I certainly again think he is the best opener in the last 20 years. I think his record is enough for him to be in contention for discussion for an opening spot but there is some still competition obviously.

The Gabba is still one of the best places in the world for pace bowling, great bounce, seam and swing is always a factor, imo the best all round pitch in the world, so i reckon if he was so vulnerable to the moving ball he would never have succeeded in FC cricket.
 
Now where would you compare those bowlers you named to the likes of Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh, Pollock, Ntini, Donald, Akhtar, Murali, Kumble, Harimson, Flintoff, Vaas. How would they do on those uncovered pitches if they did so well on "flat wickets"?

What's them potentially doing well on uncovered wickets got to do with Hayden scoring runs against them? Hayden never made runs against top quality fast bowling on a pitch that offered something to the seam bowler without being incredibly fortunate (Melbourne against England for example, where he was adjudged not out to 2 appeals that looked to be plumb lbw).

Hayden played 295 First Class matches, scored 79 centuries in 2 of the best domestic leagues. Great record without a doubt.

Yeah, it's a good record. But it's not anywhere near as good as that of Jack Hobbs.

Gavaskar dominated the best bowling attack of all time on uncovered pitches, home and away. Could make a argument for him being the greatest opener, not Hobbs. Many people consider him as one of the best batsman not just openers but overall.

Gavaskar has a good record against the West Indies, but the numbers are deceiving. His record against the Windies pace quartet wasn't actually that brilliant (certainly not as amazing as it appears on first glance anyway). Most of Gavaskar's hundreds came in the early 70's before the likes of Holding, Roberts, Marshall and Garner were on the scene.

He scored 3 hundreds against the 'best bowling attack of all time' in the West Indies, and all 3 matches ended in draws. One of which he made 102 in the 4th innings, where India chased down a target of 403. Gavaskar's actual average against the Windies' quality pace attack away from home wasn't in the 70's or 80's, it was actually 42. The majority of his runs came against an attack that included Sobers, Dowe, Shepherd, Davis and Noreiga. An attack nowhere near as impressive as one that included Roberts, Holding, Garner and Marshall.

At home his record would firstly be inflated by the pitches not being at all helpful to Seam bowling, even if they were uncovered. India often had 3 frontline spinners bowling at that time at home. Then it's also a matter of him scoring most of his runs against an inferior attack to the one that everyone remembers. He scored 4 of his home hundreds against the Windies against an attack where only 1 of the Pace Quartet was playing (Marshall) and he only played in 2 of the games, and it was in the infancy of his career, before he became the bowler we all remember him for.

Gavaskar made scores of 121, 90 and 236* against 2 different attacks. The first included Marshall, Holding, Davis and Daniel; the 2nd was Marshall, Roberts, Davis and Holding. So very good attacks, but still not quite as good as the Holding, Roberts, Marshall and Garner attack. Also, 2 of those games ended in a draw, with the only result being due to a massive collapse from the fragile Indian batting line-up and the pitch starting to suit the seamers; Gavaskar made just 1. He averaged 50.5 at home against the good Windies attack, but that average is massively boosted by the 236* on a very flat wicket, in an innings where he batted 4, not as an opener. For me it's an example, much like the majority of Hayden's career where the plain stats can be decieving

Hobbs played 900 First Class matches, no wonder he scored that many centuries. Half the time the attacks he faced were average at best. Did every one of his domestic matches have Barnes, Larwood, Tait, Rodes? Dont think so.

Sorry, you're dismissing the fact that Hobbs scored 199 FC centuries, without any sort of reasoning. Everyone that saw Jack Hobbs bat has spoken of his marvelous technique and ability. It's been said by a few experts that Sir Jack Hobbs was as talented a batsman as Sir Donald Bradman, he just lacked the tenacity and the competitiveness to really nail attacks like The Don. Hobbs was a master of the wet wicket, where deliveries would just bite and spit off the surface, he was a better player on those sorts of wickets than Bradman. Not playing against the likes of Larwood, SF Barnes and co every match is a moot point, as it's been commented that domestic cricket in England at the time was as good a standard as Test cricket, and with the uncovered pitches and number of wet wickets, I think it's magnificent that Hobbs made as many runs as he did. He scored 90 centuries after the age of 40 ffs.

The fact that your going after me for including Hayden over Hobbs and then saying Richards would be closer to Hobbs then Gavaskar is a joke in it self. If Hobbs is the best opener of all time the Sunny is the clear #2.

I disagree. If we're going by stats alone, then sure Gavaskar achieved more at the highest level. But Richards made big runs everywhere he went, scored runs against the best bowlers in the world, and even when he was well past his prime playing World Series cricket he still managed an average of over 70. There isn't much between Richards and Gavaskar for me, but given everything I've heard and read about them, I prefer Richards. It's completely personal preference and down to your exposure to each player though as far as I can see. I don't believe the distance between Hobbs and Hayden is anywhere near as small, Hobbs was a far superior batsman in my eyes, and in the eyes of a lot of people.

King Pietersen added 6 Minutes and 18 Seconds later...

I just find it hard to conprehend that a guy who played the majority of his career in Brisbane with the record he has could possibly be a flat track bully. Certainly toward the end of his career he lost a bit of his aura and whenever his form dipped it would be him being too aggressive but people forget how he played at his best, in his prime it didn't matter what attack was bowling to him. I certainly again think he is the best opener in the last 20 years. I think his record is enough for him to be in contention for discussion for an opening spot but there is some still competition obviously.

The Gabba is still one of the best places in the world for pace bowling, great bounce, seam and swing is always a factor, imo the best all round pitch in the world, so i reckon if he was so vulnerable to the moving ball he would never have succeeded in FC cricket.

Without any examples of where Hayden scored runs against a good attack on a pitch that offered something to the seamers it's a bit of a nothing point. Hayden was a good Test opener, nothing more. In eras gone by (even in the 90's) where he would have been facing top quality seam bowling on pitches with more in it for the seamer he'd have struggled to average above 40. I'm yet to see an example of Hayden making significant runs against a good bowling attack on a pitch that offered something for the seamer.
 
Viv Richards and Gavaskar are both in the same league. However, it's Viv who is rated the better batsman simply because of the way he scored his runs. He was a dominator of the highest order. The way he used to completely destroy those fearsome fast bowlers of his time is truly remarkable. Gavaskar on the other hand was a technician, someone who would wait for the bad deliveries to score runs off. Gavaskar was technically much superior to Richards though. Allan Border till this day claims that he has not seen anyone with a better technique than Gavaskar, and the one player who comes closest to Gavaskar's technique is Tendulkar.

Bradman once said that the only thing lacking in Gavaskar's batting was aggression.
 
My best All-time XI:

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. Don Bradman
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Viv Richards
6. Gary Sobers
7. Imran Khan
8. Allan Knott
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Muttiah Muralitharan/Shane Wanre

12th Man: Richard Hadlee

War added 12 Minutes and 7 Seconds later...

Without any examples of where Hayden scored runs against a good attack on a pitch that offered something to the seamers it's a bit of a nothing point. Hayden was a good Test opener, nothing more. In eras gone by (even in the 90's) where he would have been facing top quality seam bowling on pitches with more in it for the seamer he'd have struggled to average above 40. I'm yet to see an example of Hayden making significant runs against a good bowling attack on a pitch that offered something for the seamer.

I shall assist you with that.

- Oval 2005 where he saved his career.

- Super test 2005

- Hundreds vs SA 05/06 with Ntini & Nel in top form on some difficult wickets

- MCG 2006 Ashes hundred vs Hoggard & Flintoff in what was coindentally the only bowler friendly deck in the 2006 Ashes.

- His MCG & SCG hundreds vs IND 07/08 vs Khan especially when the ball was moving around.

Hayden corrected his FTB faulTs of the Mumbai 2001 to cairns 2004 days with these innings. Which erase much doubts that if he had played in a past era of more consistent quality pace attacks that he would have been a 40+ average batsmen for sure. But not a 50+ average batsman IMO.
 
Viv Richards and Gavaskar are both in the same league. However, it's Viv who is rated the better batsman simply because of the way he scored his runs. He was a dominator of the highest order. The way he used to completely destroy those fearsome fast bowlers of his time is truly remarkable. Gavaskar on the other hand was a technician, someone who would wait for the bad deliveries to score runs off. Gavaskar was technically much superior to Richards though. Allan Border till this day claims that he has not seen anyone with a better technique than Gavaskar, and the one player who comes closest to Gavaskar's technique is Tendulkar.

Bradman once said that the only thing lacking in Gavaskar's batting was aggression.
Gavaskar though makes Rahul Dravid look like Virender Sehwag by comparison. Just like a lot of openers around his time.

stereotype added 10 Minutes and 32 Seconds later...

King Pietersen added 6 Minutes and 18 Seconds later...



Without any examples of where Hayden scored runs against a good attack on a pitch that offered something to the seamers it's a bit of a nothing point. Hayden was a good Test opener, nothing more. In eras gone by (even in the 90's) where he would have been facing top quality seam bowling on pitches with more in it for the seamer he'd have struggled to average above 40. I'm yet to see an example of Hayden making significant runs against a good bowling attack on a pitch that offered something for the seamer.

You are the one calling him a flat track bully. I said that the Gabba is one of the best pitches in the world (his home pitch) for seam bowlers and he did very well in FC cricket there, what FC cricket is higher standard than Sheffield Shield in his time apart from Test cricket itself?. You can only play what is in front of you Hayden used to bat a significant distance outside his crease lol at plumb lbw. Bias much?

If you can on the one had use Jack Hobbs FC record as some sort of landmark, then using Matthew Hayden and his FC record should not be too much of ask should it?
 
If Hayden is just a flat track bully, obviously the 2001 BG Trophy didn't happen.
 
I shall assist you with that.

- Oval 2005 where he saved his career.

- Super test 2005

- Hundreds vs SA 05/06 with Ntini & Nel in top form on some difficult wickets

- MCG 2006 Ashes hundred vs Hoggard & Flintoff in what was coindentally the only bowler friendly deck in the 2006 Ashes.

- His MCG & SCG hundreds vs IND 07/08 vs Khan especially when the ball was moving around.

Hayden corrected his FTB faulTs of the Mumbai 2001 to cairns 2004 days with these innings. Which erase much doubts that if he had played in a past era of more consistent quality pace attacks that he would have been a 40+ average batsmen for sure. But not a 50+ average batsman IMO.

Oval 05 - Ok innings on what was a pretty flat pitch against an attack that bowled very poorly at both Hayden and Langer. Harmison was dire after Lords, Hoggard bowled poorly with the first new ball and even Flintoff didn't bowl well until the 2nd new ball.

Supertest? What Test was that? If it was the ICC World XI game, then it still wasn't a top class seam attack. Harmison, Flintoff and Kallis has to be one of the least penetrative seam attacks of all-time. Good spin attack, but I've never doubted Hayden against spin.

SA 05/06 - South Africa bowled poorly in the 2nd innings of the Durban Test, and Ntini and Nel have never been world class seam bowlers. Good Test bowlers, but they're not world class seamers. Then at Melbourne the attack wasn't great either. Pollock past his best, and only capable of performing like a world class seamer on a real green, seaming deck; Ntini was never a world class seamer, same with Nel and Kallis.

MCG and SCG Indian hundreds- Zaheer Khan and RP Singh were the seamers at the MCG, and they bowled poorly first up, both going at basically 4 an over. Neither have been top class seam bowlers either. Then at the SCG, their best seamer Zaheer didn't play, and the 2 seam bowlers were RP Singh and Ishant Sharma. That is not a top class seam attack.

As for Gazza's suggestion about the 2001 BG Trophy, what quality seamers did he face in India? A seam attack of Zaheer Khan and Saurav Ganguly is not a potent seam attack in the slightest. Scored runs against spin, but once again, I've never doubted his ability against spin bowling.
 

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