England tour to South Africa December 2015/February 2016

[PokerAce]

What a huge wicket ... I was starting to think if SA went in only 3 down, then they could get whatever was the target tomorrow. I am not saying they would get, but could get. There was potential for a contest atleast. However with Faf gone now, I would tihnk its every hard for SA do much here.

Steyn come out, and if they get him, that would really be it. Not long left today, what a crucial point in which to get Faf.

 

[dp458]

Do people still think that Chris Woakes is the long term successor to Jimmy Anderson? I know he's only in his 4th or 5th test but most bowlers who have gone on to have good careers for England have looked raw but very talented early on. Just thinking about the first 5 matches for Anderson, Jones, Harmison and Broad and comparing that to Woakes, it's quite a big difference.

I think the problem is that people assume that Woakes is a swing bowler and he'll naturally slip into Jimmy's shoes. However, I've seen him do nothing with the ball in terms of movement. He's tidy enough, but I don't think that will get you lots of wickets. One thing in his favour is that I reckon he could bat at 6/7. Looks like a quality batter.

He bats 6 usually for Warwickshire, and as a bear I am biased, on lions tours in the past in Sri Lanka and south Africa he has been the stand out bowler. He has bowled well without luck in this test so far, he had amps dropped and has bowled tight to create pressure to allow moeen and Finn to bowl naturally

 

[dp458]

purely on swing i would say stokes bowls like anderson when he is in rythm, woakes looks more like siddle! Ideally he would be first change to a finn and broad!

That isn't a bad comparison, but he does swing it well in England, and his batting is useful at 7 so at 9 he is a God send. He will get test tons if he plays tests as a regular

Although atm I'd say he is 5th seamer behind Jimmy, broad, Finn, wood

And is also the immediate replacement of stokes is out, as you switch moeen to 6 and woakes bats 8

 

[bigred]

He bats 6 usually for Warwickshire, and as a bear I am biased, on lions tours in the past in Sri Lanka and south Africa he has been the stand out bowler. He has bowled well without luck in this test so far, he had amps dropped and has bowled tight to create pressure to allow moeen and Finn to bowl naturally

Don't get me wrong, I think he's a good cricketer, but his bowling looked a bit up and down today. Unfortunately for him, he probably won't play in Cape Town as Jimmy has pretty much declared himself fit.

One interesting selection discussion could be that if Stokes continues to struggle with the bat, who is the better bowler out of Stokes and Woakes. I like Stokes and think he'll succeed, but if he's not contributing with the bat then he'll have to contribute heavily with the ball. If Woakes is a better bowler than him, wouldn't Woakes deserve the spot of the all rounder? I actually prefer Stokes' bowling so I'd pick him regardless. His position in the batting order might have to be reviewed though if Bairstow and Ali score runs.

 

[War]

Amla faces a difficult road | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

Ha for years as I've tended to argue in this thread - The Quota System | Page 3 - Cricket Discussion on PlanetCricket Forums that there will come a point where South Africa's reverse-racism "transformation policy" is going to catch up with them and potentially cost them a a major test series. This article proves conclusively - that if they don't totally stop the crap of trying to pick players just because who is pure black or coloured - this mess will totally blow in their faces this series.

SA clearly may have lost a bit of their power since Smith, Kallis retired, shaky form of Amla and recent injuries of Steyn - but they clearly have good enough options to build a very strong XI right now - thus if the XI has to be filled with 11 white players so be it.

@stefan @Markkkkk @Rudolph

 

[stefan]

The side would be so much stronger if it was only picked on merit...

 

[War]

The side would be so much stronger if it was only picked on merit...

Yea stefan we talk about this all the time & its notable that the cricinfo journalist who is supporter of transformation has felt need to write that article. Everyone know what SA has to do:

- AB don't want to keep because of work load issues and he done threatening to retire - let De Kock keep

- S Cook has to open because they need a pure opener, so stop trying to fit Bavuma because he is pure black and Duminy when he is clearly been given enough chances and messing up Van Zyl career as a make-shift opener. Let Van Zyl in the middle and just pick Rossouw for the non performing Duminy

- Now that Philander & Steyn won't be fit for Capetown - the only black/coloured bowler who should play is Rabada on merit & potentially the best make-up of SA attack if simply 4 quicks with Morkel/Abbot/Rabada/Viljeon or Morris

Picking Piedt & Tahir as things are coming to light would have more to do with pandering to quota's more than a real "need" for SA to play a spinner.

Thus once this teams plays SA would be perfectly fine: Cook, Elgar, Amla, De Villiers, Roussow, Van Zyl, De Kock, Morris/Viljeon, M Morkel, Rabada, Abbott

 

[bigred]

Yea stefan we talk about this all the time & its notable that the cricinfo journalist who is supporter of transformation has felt need to write that article. Everyone know what SA has to do:

- AB don't want to keep because of work load issues and he done threatening to retire - let De Kock keep

- S Cook has to open because they need a pure opener, so stop trying to fit Bavuma because he is pure and Duminy when he is clearly been given enough chances and messing up Van Zyl career as a make-shift opener. Let Van Zyl in the middle and just pick Rossouw for the non performing Duminy

- Now that Philander & Steyn won't be fit for Capetown - the only black/coloured bowler who should play is Rabada on merit & potentially the best make-up of SA attack if simply 4 quicks with Morkel/Abbot/Rabada/Viljeon or Morris

Picking Piedt & Tahir as things are coming to light would have more to do with pandering to quota's more than a real "need" for SA to play a spinner.

Thus once this teams plays SA would be perfectly fine: Cook, Elgar, Amla, De Villiers, Roussow, Van Zyl, De Kock, Morris/Viljeon, M Morkel, Rabada, Abbott

I'm not sure they could go into the Cape Town test with 4 seamers and no Duminy. Cape Town generally takes quite a bit of turn on days 4 and 5. I'm not saying that Duminy is a quality spinner, but I don't think he's too far behind Piedt. If SA had gone down the 4 seamer route in this test they'd be in even more trouble than they are.

 

[Markkkkk]

Tahir is miles better then Piedt and @War I recommend you take a look at Paterson's figures but other then that you are 100%. South African cricket is becoming a joke...

 

[dp458]

Don't get me wrong, I think he's a good cricketer, but his bowling looked a bit up and down today. Unfortunately for him, he probably won't play in Cape Town as Jimmy has pretty much declared himself fit.

One interesting selection discussion could be that if Stokes continues to struggle with the bat, who is the better bowler out of Stokes and Woakes. I like Stokes and think he'll succeed, but if he's not contributing with the bat then he'll have to contribute heavily with the ball. If Woakes is a better bowler than him, wouldn't Woakes deserve the spot of the all rounder? I actually prefer Stokes' bowling so I'd pick him regardless. His position in the batting order might have to be reviewed though if Bairstow and Ali score runs.

It did look up and down a little.
With the current order, I'd have bairstow at 6 Ali at 7 and stokes at 8, but once he is at 8, for me I'd pick woakes as a better bowler and almost as good a batsman.
I do find it odd woakes debut at the oval he batted 6, look good with the bat, and wasn't awful with the ball yet didn't make the return squad, he got lumped with the awful debut of Kerrigan. Basically they wanted woakes before they wanted stokes.
I know this won't happen, as sky live stokes even when he really isn't contributing at all, like now.

 

[C Boomer]

It did look up and down a little.
With the current order, I'd have bairstow at 6 Ali at 7 and stokes at 8, but once he is at 8, for me I'd pick woakes as a better bowler and almost as good a batsman.
I do find it odd woakes debut at the oval he batted 6, look good with the bat, and wasn't awful with the ball yet didn't make the return squad, he got lumped with the awful debut of Kerrigan. Basically they wanted woakes before they wanted stokes.
I know this won't happen, as sky live stokes even when he really isn't contributing at all, like now.

What has Sky got to do with the England selection panel ?

 

[grkrama]

why is every body getting out on the third ball of an over today ?

46.3,47.3,49.3,52.3,55.3

also by the way the team looks will a couple of selections actually make it better for SA?

apart from elgar and deviliers the whole batting order looks jaded, ABD himself hasnt really been at his best!

 

[Ohm]

SA certainly need to make some filtrations. Giving an excuse about poor pitches will never boost the form of their poor performers. Btw they're home now, and looking them failing to Moeen Ali, Finn is just hilarious. I thought, without Jim England would find tough time in this tour. But not now, as host are actually assisting them by not proving their will to fight.

ed: Have heard of Paterson. His stats are tremendous and the guy needs to be given a chance to prove his worth. I think he's one real SA product.

 

[MUFC1987]

Been a brilliant effort from England, especially considering we lost the toss. We won't get the credit we deserve though, because X, Y and Z should have been playing for South Africa etc.

Mo has quietly been brilliant with the ball again and there aren't too many weaknesses for me. Woakes has bowled well without reward and will probably be the unlucky one to miss out when Anderson is back, but I think he's very much the next and line and should stay that way.

Also, all this talk about Stokes batting lower down or whatever. The guy has two Test centuries, that's more than Bairstow and Ali have managed, he deserves a run in the side at 6. His talent really isn't in doubt.

 

[dp458]

What has Sky got to do with the England selection panel ?

Nothing but they usually predict the team well, and in interviews with the team etc.... They say stokes is a key member