War, we can argue based upon hypothetial scenarios or argue based on facts which suggest that India during Tendy-VVS-Dravid era were really competitive overseas. In fact, during the 2002-2011 (pre England 2011) period India won more overseas tests than anybody bar Australia. Remember, we might speak of victories in WI as a given but yet England, SL, NZ, Pakistan have all failed to win in WI during that period. England lost in the Carribean in 2008/9. Pakistan failed to win in NZ for a while. SL have been gutless overseas. Australia have lost tests to NZ at home and been poor against SA and ENG for a while, home or away.
The 2 series in 2011, in my opinion cannot be used again and again to drive home the fact that Indians can`t play well overseas. In fact, if you want to have a balanced opinion look at how we fared overseas from 2002 to 2010 SA for the potential. That was 8 good years of test cricket overseas by India.
While Tendulkar, Dravid and VVS were no jokers in the 2011 tours of Aus/Eng, they were`nt at their peak either. You just have to look at their performances in NZ, SA, England and Australia in 2007/8/9/10 to understand what I mean. Zaheer when fully fit was half of India`s attack and since his comeback from injury in Aus, 2011, he has hardly been a shadow of the bowler instrumental in winning us tests overseas and India during his peak. Zaheer at his peak was also pivotal in India`s home successes, which reiterates how much our attack depended on him in 2010.
Its all a matter of debate but if SA only played Steyn and Morkel, they were`nt easy meat either and unlike other sides India had the quality in 2010 to compete with SA in SA. You just cannot disregard that fact based upon hypothetical scenarios.
Its completely a different matter as to how this side will fair. I would be happy if these players come out tested and show some grit. We should realistically be targeting the Eng 6 months later. This lineup would be far more comfortable in England, wiser from experiences in SA and NZ. We could still be looking at the makings of a good side home and away, if this bunch can stand up in SA and fight.
I am not questioning IND's overseas record from 2002-2011 - i know that they became solid during this period mainly due to the famous middle-order.
I would have check the stats myself, but off my head i would be very surprised if IND won more overseas tests than ENG & S Africa from 2002-2011 though. You would have to show me that - but even if its possible they did - certainly they didn't win more overseas "test series" than ENG & SA - series wins obviously carry more weight than individual match wins across various series. Even the faulty cricket ranking system we have doesn't reward teams for winning matches - but series wins.
As you agreed yourself around 2011 - the India batsmen was past their 2002-2011 peak, which is why young, fresh, full-strength ENG & AUS pace attacks whitewashed them overseas. Thus based on what AUS/ENG did - its not an inconceivable hypothetical scenario to suggest why if S had picked a stronger attack around Steyn/Morkel - they would have likely had 3 whitewashes that year. Philander is massive upgrade from Tsotsobe.
Same thing goes for Zaheer, i don't underestimate his importance just as those batsmen since he returned in 2007 after his 2006 county stint to IND being good overseas. But he too like the batsmen, started showing declining signs in 2011 & that was proven after that S Africa tour during tours to AUS/ENG & home series vs England.
Overall though as i mentioned in another thread - my position on the Indian batsmen is this:
They now are in this post Tendy era period starting with this S Africa tour & then way to NZ, ENG, AUS when they new young batsmen will be properly tested vs good fast bowlers of varying skills & we will finally know how good they are.
Despite the talent of Kohli, Sharma, Dhawan etc people seem to under-rate that the recent IND batting era of Tendy/Dravid/VVS/Ganguly/Azharuddin was the most complete group of batsmen IND has produced in their test history at one period, who were solid enough overseas & home - Tendy & Dravid being the standouts of course.
Even while these big 5 were playing many players like Sehwag, Kambli, Manjrekar, Ghandi, Bhardwaj, Kanitkar, Yuvraj, Badani, Jaffer, Raina, Das, Ramesh, Jadeja, Mukund, Gambhir who got chances around the "big 5", when they either got injured, missed a series or even got dropped (Ganguly and Azhar) - looked out of their depth or fell off dramatically after bright periods.
So this is clear sign how good the big 5 were & how difficult it could be to replace them.
Before that India had just a few batsmen in a period who were good - Gavaskar/Viswanth/Vengsarkar in 70s & 80s - Umrigar/Borde/Nawad Pataudi in the 60s - Hazare/Umrigar in the 50s - Hazare only in post war early 50s - and these guys were surrounded by many players who were jokers/below par overseas, compared to their home batting exploits.
Replacing such a dynasty can be tricky as proven with other sides in history. India have never come close yet to replacing their lethal spin quartet of the 70s - Windies have not produced the same about of world class quicks since 1991 - Australia since 2006, their exciting young batsmen did not step up as expected - Pakistan can't yet find an opening pair replacement since Anwar/Sohail in the 90s - ENG could not find a adequate Botham replacement in over a decade until Flintoff emerged etc etc...
Im not writing off Kohli & co - i think Kohil has pretty much convinced me that he is Asian batsmen that can survive overseas for a while now. Also i reckon Pujara can come close to replicating Dravid exploits in the important #3 test spot.
But historical evidence with India batsmen should tell us, one should not have any strong confidence in their young batsmen overall, unless they conquer the away test tours test on 2014. That i don't think that is a unfair proposition.
lol
Now no more quotes please..
