India tour of West Indies Aug-Sept 2019

[abhi_jacko]

Also ignored talents like Gautam Gambhir, Hemang Badani, etc. It was rather the Indian team to be fortunate to have best blend of players together. You are saying as if Ganguly taught players like Yuvraj Singh how to hold a bat ?

Also tell me why the same person comes out and says it 100 times that Kohli is like me.

Forget it buddy If you are going to ask ridiculous things like this, then forget about agreeing with each other. We are not even discussing on the same plane

I am happy that you are satisfied with our lack of trophies and overseas wins. I am not because I think this group of talent deserves to achieve a lot more !

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Forget it buddy If you are going to ask ridiculous things like this, then forget about agreeing with each other. We are not even discussing on the same plane

I am happy that you are satisfied with our lack of trophies and overseas wins. I am not because I think this group of talent deserves to achieve a lot more !

Okay I accept the fact that you know better than our former players including Ganguly himself who called Kohli is mirror image of himself as a Captain.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

Forget it buddy If you are going to ask ridiculous things like this, then forget about agreeing with each other. We are not even discussing on the same plane

I am happy that you are satisfied with our lack of trophies and overseas wins. I am not because I think this group of talent deserves to achieve a lot more !

Use the button Jacko. You'll be spared.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

We should be winning overseas against the best teams because for the first time, we have a bowling line up which can take 20 wickets. Instead we continue to just "compete".

With previous bowling line-up we did not even compete. We were humiliated. And this fact was brought up by Sunil Gavaskar. He went on to say that to clean up the tail the bowling requires to have someone who can bowl that 150kph yorker which India lacks. He said that "It's not a problem of ability but it's the problem of lack of physical strength."[DOUBLEPOST=1565615711][/DOUBLEPOST]

Use the button Jacko. You'll be spared.

I can use that for your 1000 posts

1000>1

 

[SaiSrini]

To me, India are not a dominant side until they show dominant numbers in winning series and tournaments (I am with abhi on this). Under Virat Kohli in the past 2 years, this is what they've shown against the SENA sides (SENA stands for 'South Africa, England, New Zealand and Australia') and ICC tournaments:

Note: I am not going to count T20I series as T20I's are not given enough importance at an intl level

- Lost ICC CT 2017
- Lost Test Series in SA
- Won ODI Series in SA
- Lost Test Series in ENG
- Lost ODI Series in ENG
- Won Test Series in AUS
- Won ODI Series in AUS
- Lost ODI Series against AUS (at home)
- Lost ICC WC 2019

This comes to a 3-6 ratio against Kohli's India. If this is called "dominance", we would be a laughing stock around the world. And if you see deeper in the above list, our win ratio is boosted by that tour to Australia where we took on a team that was massively handicapped by the absence of Warner and Smith, both of whom were serving bans. I am pretty confident that if both were present, the test series would have looked entirely different.

 

[Aalay]

https://www.news18.com/cricketnext/...ian-coach-shortlist-with-shastri-2268295.html

I don't know how trustworthy this is but they have listed six candidates shortlisted for interviews.

The six candidates are former New Zealand coach Mike Hesson, former Australia all-rounder and Sri Lanka coach Tom Moody, former West Indies all-rounder and Afghanistan coach Phil Simmons, former India team manager Lalchand Rajput, former India fielding coach Robin Singh and of course Shastri.

TBH, they are all pretty good as coach. Ideally I would like to see Tom Moody as the coach. However, I won't mind even if they go for someone like Hesson. I have heard that Hesson has also given interview for Bangaldesh coaching position and is also being considered for Pakistan's head coach position. The way Tom Moody has been treated the last 2 times has been nothing short of embarrassing. I really want him to get this position this time around because he actually deserves it. I just want Ravi Shastri back in the commentary box, not in the dressing room as the coach of Indian team.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

To me, India are not a dominant side until they show dominant numbers in winning series and tournaments (I am with abhi on this). Under Virat Kohli in the past 2 years, this is what they've shown against the SENA sides (SENA stands for 'South Africa, England, New Zealand and Australia') and ICC tournaments:

Note: I am not going to count T20I series as T20I's are not given enough importance at an intl level

- Lost ICC CT 2017
- Lost Test Series in SA
- Won ODI Series in SA
- Lost Test Series in ENG
- Lost ODI Series in ENG
- Won Test Series in AUS
- Won ODI Series in AUS
- Lost ODI Series against AUS (at home)
- Lost ICC WC 2019

This comes to a 3-6 ratio against Kohli's India. If this is called "dominance", we would be a laughing stock around the world. And if you see deeper in the above list, our win ratio is boosted by that tour to Australia where we took on a team that was massively handicapped by the absence of Warner and Smith, both of whom were serving bans. I am pretty confident that if both were present, the test series would have looked entirely different.

I don't think I have said India are dominant. They have shown signs to be one. That's the only thing I said.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

To me, India are not a dominant side until they show dominant numbers in winning series and tournaments (I am with abhi on this). Under Virat Kohli in the past 2 years, this is what they've shown against the SENA sides (SENA stands for 'South Africa, England, New Zealand and Australia') and ICC tournaments:

Note: I am not going to count T20I series as T20I's are not given enough importance at an intl level

- Lost ICC CT 2017
- Lost Test Series in SA
- Won ODI Series in SA
- Lost Test Series in ENG
- Lost ODI Series in ENG
- Won Test Series in AUS
- Won ODI Series in AUS
- Lost ODI Series against AUS (at home)
- Lost ICC WC 2019

This comes to a 3-6 ratio against Kohli's India. If this is called "dominance", we would be a laughing stock around the world. And if you see deeper in the above list, our win ratio is boosted by that tour to Australia where we took on a team that was massively handicapped by the absence of Warner and Smith, both of whom were serving bans. I am pretty confident that if both were present, the test series would have looked entirely different.

@abhi_jacko tagging you also, since you were also in the discussion.

For me, first and foremost, the ICC rankings can go to hell. Anyone with any cricketing sense or knowledge will tell you this.For example, Pakistan is currently the number 1 ranked T20 side but they're not a better side than England, India, Australia or West Indies (full strength) in the format. Hell, I think NZ will also challenge them at places.

Now, coming to this current India side and let us compare that to the generation before. In the 2000's the Australian team was regarded to be on par with the great WI side of yesteryear. Whenever a discussion on the greatest team ever pops up, I shy away from the comparison to the WI side because I never saw them. In my lifetime of watching cricket (1992-date) that Aussie side is the best team I have seen. A side that comes close? The current Indian lot definitely has the talent to match that side. The ODI series cited by you Sai is not something we have not accomplished before. If you take out the 2007 World Cup which was a culmination of the managerial disaster that plagues us now as well, we were always a serious white ball side since that Natwest final. I keep saying, the hoopla is around Kohli but it is our bowling that makes us such a serious threat in the shorter formats. Let's come to tests-

South Africa? Weakest SA side for me since 1992. Dropping Bhuvneshwar Kumar in the second test basically meant we were knocked out of that series before a ball was bowled in that second test.
Tactical Blunder
This tour was also the beginning of the decline of Ajinkya Rahane as he was dropped in favour of Rohit Sharma in test matches. It has now been admitted by the management that Rohit's white ball form against Sri Lanka was the reason this call was made. Rahane, who has centuries in ALL SENA countries. Jinks was later hilariously our number 4 for the ODI's.
We won the last test which was the most difficult of all the tracks, but the series was gone by then!

England? Weakest ENG team by far as well with a very unsettled line up. WI have won there very recently, and while they have improved themselves, I don't think the Strauss/Vaughan led sides were lesser sides than the one led by Root. The captaincy around the time Sam Curran came into bat will not be on any score card but those that have seen will tell you were the worst bits in their time watching cricket.
Tactical blunder
This was also the time Cheteshwar Pujara got dropped and then at a track where perhaps no spinner should have played, we played two.

Australia? Less said the better. They were a one legged side and without Pujara, even this would have slipped out. We still won, so kudos but it is not comparable to our triumph in 83/11 at World Cup. Hell, our performance under Ganguly against the Steve Waugh side where we almost pulled off the series win against a GUN side will remain our best performance!

All in all, we can safely say that Kohli's biggest contribution to India as captain has been promoting a pool of match winning quicks. He should be given a lot of credit for that along with Dhoni. The decision to have Bumrah in tests was a true master stroke so credit where credit is due.

But, the rigorous chop and change and whimsical selections finally took their toll at the World Cup and it seems like it's going to continue for a while longer.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

https://www.news18.com/cricketnext/...ian-coach-shortlist-with-shastri-2268295.html

I don't know how trustworthy this is but they have listed six candidates shortlisted for interviews.



TBH, they are all pretty good as coach. Ideally I would like to see Tom Moody as the coach. However, I won't mind even if they go for someone like Hesson. I have heard that Hesson has also given interview for Bangaldesh coaching position and is also being considered for Pakistan's head coach position. The way Tom Moody has been treated the last 2 times has been nothing short of embarrassing. I really want him to get this position this time around because he actually deserves it. I just want Ravi Shastri back in the commentary box, not in the dressing room as the coach of Indian team.

Shastri is not going anywhere.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Australia where we took on a team that was massively handicapped by the absence of Warner and Smith, both of whom were serving bans.

That doesn't make up for bowling. We played Starc, Hazelwood and Cummins and did well against them. And even if Australia had Warner and Smith the result would've been a 2-1 loss or a draw. Being dominant doesn't appear instantly you need to work for it. Having a good team doesn't make up for the team's short-comings. And for making it to the Semis and losing there doesn't mean that you need to ask for the head of the Captain. And again there seems to be a bit of bias at times against the Indian team. At one point people mourn for South Africa's loss in 2015 WC Semi-final and at the other they say India deserved to lose in the Semi-final because of the management unit they have. I don't know what has been happening behind the scenes but I have only brought forward those things that have been said by former Cricketers themselves.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

There were obvious tactical blunders which were made but we were also quick to correct those which also has to be looked upon. It shows that the losses became part of the learning curve as well. You have given 2 years then why not 1 more year ? There should be longevity in whatever you do and changing Captain every 2 years is not something great. For Kohli's case he has got results and that is why he is being backed as he is expected to do better. The result that have been good as been looked upon and is expected to become a pattern to win matches when it comes to longer formats. There is always a scope for improvement with the amount of white ball Cricket that is being played. You lose 1, you lose 10 but when you learn to win you learn to dominate. Without getting wins you don't get confidence to do better and without confidence you can't win consistently. Lastly without winning consistently you can't dominate. It all comes down to longevity in doing something.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

- Lost ICC CT 2017 (Was like Asia Cup as we played 4 out of 5 matches against Asian teams)
- Lost Test Series in SA (Also won at home 3-0)
- Won ODI Series in SA (First in the history)
- Lost Test Series in ENG (Beat England 4-0 at home)
- Lost ODI Series in ENG (Beat England 2-0 at home)
- Won Test Series in AUS (Also won 2-1 at home)
- Won ODI Series in AUS (First time in history)
- Lost ODI Series against AUS (at home) (But NZ in away series 4-1)
- Lost ICC WC 2019 (Australia lost in SF, South Africa in knocked out in Group Stage, NZ nearly lost in Finals)

I don't see any side that did better as compared to India in the same period. Let us accept the fact that he game has changed a lot so quality of past has nothing to do with this.

 

[Bevab]

@abhi_jacko tagging you also, since you were also in the discussion.

For me, first and foremost, the ICC rankings can go to hell. Anyone with any cricketing sense or knowledge will tell you this.For example, Pakistan is currently the number 1 ranked T20 side but they're not a better side than England, India, Australia or West Indies (full strength) in the format. Hell, I think NZ will also challenge them at places.

Now, coming to this current India side and let us compare that to the generation before. In the 2000's the Australian team was regarded to be on par with the great WI side of yesteryear. Whenever a discussion on the greatest team ever pops up, I shy away from the comparison to the WI side because I never saw them. In my lifetime of watching cricket (1992-date) that Aussie side is the best team I have seen. A side that comes close? The current Indian lot definitely has the talent to match that side. The ODI series cited by you Sai is not something we have not accomplished before. If you take out the 2007 World Cup which was a culmination of the managerial disaster that plagues us now as well, we were always a serious white ball side since that Natwest final. I keep saying, the hoopla is around Kohli but it is our bowling that makes us such a serious threat in the shorter formats. Let's come to tests-

South Africa? Weakest SA side for me since 1992. Dropping Bhuvneshwar Kumar in the second test basically meant we were knocked out of that series before a ball was bowled in that second test.
Tactical Blunder
This tour was also the beginning of the decline of Ajinkya Rahane as he was dropped in favour of Rohit Sharma in test matches. It has now been admitted by the management that Rohit's white ball form against Sri Lanka was the reason this call was made. Rahane, who has centuries in ALL SENA countries. Jinks was later hilariously our number 4 for the ODI's.
We won the last test which was the most difficult of all the tracks, but the series was gone by then!

England? Weakest ENG team by far as well with a very unsettled line up. WI have won there very recently, and while they have improved themselves, I don't think the Strauss/Vaughan led sides were lesser sides than the one led by Root. The captaincy around the time Sam Curran came into bat will not be on any score card but those that have seen will tell you were the worst bits in their time watching cricket.
Tactical blunder
This was also the time Cheteshwar Pujara got dropped and then at a track where perhaps no spinner should have played, we played two.

Australia? Less said the better. They were a one legged side and without Pujara, even this would have slipped out. We still won, so kudos but it is not comparable to our triumph in 83/11 at World Cup. Hell, our performance under Ganguly against the Steve Waugh side where we almost pulled off the series win against a GUN side will remain our best performance!

All in all, we can safely say that Kohli's biggest contribution to India as captain has been promoting a pool of match winning quicks. He should be given a lot of credit for that along with Dhoni. The decision to have Bumrah in tests was a true master stroke so credit where credit is due.

But, the rigorous chop and change and whimsical selections finally took their toll at the World Cup and it seems like it's going to continue for a while longer.

Couldn’t have described everything put here better myself.

To add a few points,

• KL Rahul was another player that started declining right from the SA tour. He didn’t play the first test for some reason despite being a handy test opener averaging 45 back then. Since then, his numbers have been horrible to say the least.
• We also dropped Bhuvi who was our highest wicket taker in the first test and made a useful contribution with the bat in the very next game. While his replacement Ishant played decently, it made no sense at that time to drop arguably your best test bowler for ‘tactical’ reasons as it was described back then. The third test victory will undoubtedly go down in our history books as one of our best overseas victories, but just how much was that due to the pitch completely negating any skill advantage the South Africans could have enjoyed over our pacers?
• We also played a clearly unfit Ashwin in the fourth test of the England tour. Ashwin went on to struggle hitting the clearly visible ‘rough’ spot on the pitch, while England’s spinner Mo bowled superbly to win the MoM.
• Had it not been for the last minute entry of Mayank, we would have never found the sudden energy and momentum to overwhelm the Aussies down under. Lest we forget, India lost the second test by a fairly huge margin thanks to another selection blunder in Yadav being preferred over Jadeja or Bhuvi and at that point, it looked like a case of same old “we competed hard and tried our best”. Jadeja was another player that was mismanaged especially in the second test, where he was mentioned as unfit to not play and yet was fielding quite capably.
• Still haven’t mentioned how crucial the sandpaper duo are to the Aussie batting lineup. The Australians did have their best bowling lineup on paper but as clearly shown by the Edgbaston test (where they also didn’t play their ‘best’ bowling lineup), Smith is a real match winner on his day and the man is Bradman-esque in home conditions where he averages 70+ if I’m correct.
• The worst thing that I have seen personally has been the alarming decline of Rahane and Rahul from world class batsmen to barely deserving their spot in the lineup right now. These are two players who are supposed to be in their peak and yet have totally regressed.
• As for positives, I like how Kohli has backed his pace attack and continuously given them chances, something that I don’t think Dhoni would have done (then again, he never did have so many quality pacers). Further, Kohli’s team always looks to win (2014 Adelaide springs to the mind) and while this may seem naïve in some situations, it is a welcome change from previous regimes where draws where all that we played for on away tours. However, all of this is nothing in comparison to the extremely poor team selections that he has made which has hamstrung the team even before a single delivery has been bowled and has also led to the current team playing with the constant fear of being the next to be dropped. The only reason why Kohli should continue being the captain in test cricket is because of a lack of alternatives and Iyer needs to be playing tests ASAP for this very reason.
• As for ODIs, Kohli deserves no more chances after his continuous failures to adapt to ingame changes and the team’s batting lineup and tactics that are slowly becoming outdated as every day progresses.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

Couldn’t have described everything put here better myself.

To add a few points,

• KL Rahul was another player that started declining right from the SA tour. He didn’t play the first test for some reason despite being a handy test opener averaging 45 back then. Since then, his numbers have been horrible to say the least.
• We also dropped Bhuvi who was our highest wicket taker in the first test and made a useful contribution with the bat in the very next game. While his replacement Ishant played decently, it made no sense at that time to drop arguably your best test bowler for ‘tactical’ reasons as it was described back then. The third test victory will undoubtedly go down in our history books as one of our best overseas victories, but just how much was that due to the pitch completely negating any skill advantage the South Africans could have enjoyed over our pacers?
• We also played a clearly unfit Ashwin in the fourth test of the England tour. Ashwin went on to struggle hitting the clearly visible ‘rough’ spot on the pitch, while England’s spinner Mo bowled superbly to win the MoM.
• Had it not been for the last minute entry of Mayank, we would have never found the sudden energy and momentum to overwhelm the Aussies down under. Lest we forget, India lost the second test by a fairly huge margin thanks to another selection blunder in Yadav being preferred over Jadeja or Bhuvi and at that point, it looked like a case of same old “we competed hard and tried our best”. Jadeja was another player that was mismanaged especially in the second test, where he was mentioned as unfit to not play and yet was fielding quite capably.
• Still haven’t mentioned how crucial the sandpaper duo are to the Aussie batting lineup. The Australians did have their best bowling lineup on paper but as clearly shown by the Edgbaston test (where they also didn’t play their ‘best’ bowling lineup), Smith is a real match winner on his day and the man is Bradman-esque in home conditions where he averages 70+ if I’m correct.
• The worst thing that I have seen personally has been the alarming decline of Rahane and Rahul from world class batsmen to barely deserving their spot in the lineup right now. These are two players who are supposed to be in their peak and yet have totally regressed.
• As for positives, I like how Kohli has backed his pace attack and continuously given them chances, something that I don’t think Dhoni would have done (then again, he never did have so many quality pacers). Further, Kohli’s team always looks to win (2014 Adelaide springs to the mind) and while this may seem naïve in some situations, it is a welcome change from previous regimes where draws where all that we played for on away tours. However, all of this is nothing in comparison to the extremely poor team selections that he has made which has hamstrung the team even before a single delivery has been bowled and has also led to the current team playing with the constant fear of being the next to be dropped. The only reason why Kohli should continue being the captain in test cricket is because of a lack of alternatives and Iyer needs to be playing tests ASAP for this very reason.
• As for ODIs, Kohli deserves no more chances after his continuous failures to adapt to ingame changes and the team’s batting lineup and tactics that are slowly becoming outdated as every day progresses.

Pretty much nailed on. Most of the things I missed are noted here. If you combine the two posts, the number of errors are glaringly significant. SL beat SA in SA, WI ran England close in England and beat them in WI and Australia pretty much lost to everyone in that time period missing Smith and Warner.

Some slight points of difference I have is that I don't think Dhoni's contribution to this pace attack currently cannot be ignored. Ishant Sharma took an age to finally understand how to bowl but MSD's patience is now bearing fruits for Kohli. Dhoni also did well by earmarking the likes of Shami, Bhuvi, Umesh etc. all of whom broke through during his captaincy. But, Kohli's desire to keep these guys fit, rested and fresh and the emergence of Bumrah as the world's best bowler is a credit to him.

I would personally appoint Rahane captain in tests or may be even Pujara. I think Ajinkya has been treated like trash in the past two years. I have seen people like Dravid, Laxman, Tendulkar and Ganguly face the tough times just like he did but Ganguly just stuck at it with them. He believed in the quality and as I have said before, cricketers make or break during these times. Does anyone even remember Karun Nair? What on earth did that poor kid do? Where is he? I think there is plenty for Rahane to offer and deliver in the coming years. He's relatively young, very fit and has no burden or baggage of limited overs cricket because I think even he knows he's not getting picked for it.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

I think I made my points clear and it seems that there's no point in me saying anything further because the thing over here is nobody is trying to think differently and out of the box and neither anyone would want to see Kohli improve as Captain but rather want a New Captain. Okay let us see what happens further now.

Let me go a bit off-topic,
I remember people asking for Rohit to bat either in middle order or give his place to KL Rahul and could continue playing domestic Cricket as he is not just fit for opening. And today Rohit Sharma has become India's greatest limited overs player while KL Rahul has gone completely off the radar.