Like Australian seamers were when they hosted WC or like Eng swing Batallion would be when the next WC takes place
India's tour of Australia - January 2016
- Thread starter AliB
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Like Australian seamers were when they hosted WC or like Eng swing Batallion would be when the next WC takes place
You are right that the Indian seamers are aweful right now, but you are underestimating the batting they are up against. Aus are just too good with the bat. Also the same seamers won India the CT in England, and India went to the SF of the WC in Aus. So I really don't agree with what you are trying to imply there.
Ohm
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An Indian pace bowler picking most wickets in a calender year is average despite the fact he had to play most of the games in sub-continent, while a bowler like Starc who has grown up as an Australian and played for Australia mostly in Australian conditions where pace bowlers get more help is just just a world class player. I don't get this argument.
Ashwin is a spin bowler. My initial point was about the weakness in the Indian seam department.
If you are implying that Shami is anywhere near the class of Mitchell Starc then are very wrong.
zwarrior
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Ya, I agree that there is weakness in seam department. You also implied that Aussie bowlers missed some world class bowlers and if they were in squad, things would have been different. My points were about that and about the fact that you said that Shami was average.
Like Australian seamers were when they hosted WC or like Eng swing Batallion would be when the next WC takes place
Absolutely. Home advantage is crucial for any team. However, right now, I'd give India no chance in a global tournament outside of Asia. Whereas I think Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and West Indies have a great chance of winning the next one in India, and England have an outside chance.
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I think its time we bring some good bowling coach and bring some experience in bowling Department too like Nehra, Irfan and we clearly lacking a hitter like Yusuf Pathan who can destroy any bowling attack on his day.
We cant have too many rookie bowlers on an overseas tour. We should give another chance to Nehra or Pathan.
We cant have too many rookie bowlers on an overseas tour. We should give another chance to Nehra or Pathan.
We just got to WC Semi final in AUS, have reached the finals of WCT20 in BAN , Won CT in ENG yet why do we not even have an outside chance for the WC's outside india?
Its almost the same bowling attack if not with a more improved ashwin and shami!
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Nehra is 36 my friend and is not fit enough to survive 50 overs. Especially in today's game where fielding is so important and the game is so fast paced. You can't even hide him in the field because players play 360. He is picked in T20 because he has bowled well at death in IPL and he gives a bit of variety to the attack. He only needs to bowl 4 overs in T20 and field for 20 overs which is not too much. However, you can't pick him for ODI's now and they have rightly picked a young guy in Saran who deserves a few more matches.
I don't understand the obsession with Irfan Pathan. Yes, he is a very talented individual who overtime has lost that zip which made him stand out. He is bowling 120 KMH in domestic T20 tournament right now. His batting is ok but nothing phenomenal.
Again, Yusuf is a very limited player. He is not a player who will start hitting from the first ball. He needs some deliveries to get himself in just like every other batsmen that we have right now in the squad. We need a player who can go after the bowling from the very first ball. That is where Raina came in handy for last few years because he was the only player who can do that in our current crop of batsmen. That is also one of the reason why Hardik Pandya has been fast tracked into the team because he can take apart bowling from very first ball.
I think the Ishant chapter of Indian bowling is in desperate need of closing. Some may say that he was the best seamer today, but they are missing the bigger picture. A lead seamer is the one who is going to lead from the front and deliver in crunch situations. Today at a close juncture Ishant runs in, field on the off side, slides a dolly on pads which goes for a boundary. Pressure released.
Thats not a bowler who has learnt anything in over 8 years of Int'l cricket. These are the small things class players do right. Also how someone who averages 36 with the ball is even the spearhead of any attack is shocking. Bhuvi I can't believe how far he is gone behind since the tour to England. A lot of people here are calling for Shami. To be honest they are all suffering from a common syndrome, whereby a player who is not playing, suddenly starts to seem more and more like the solution to everything. Shami is no better than the guys that were out there today.
Sran from what little I have seen of him (I am being very harsh but honest), seems in the exact mould of every other pacer we have. Forget line and length, just bowl short. Thats what every one of these seamers has done on the away tours and Sran seems no different. Pitch the ball up, don't bowl short, how hard is it? All he has done is bowl short in the past two games.
Rishi Dhawan did well today, he was not fast, but varied his pace, tried to bowl the right line and length and was economical. That is something Umesh needs to learn. Its all fine being fast but line and length matters. Umesh was a downright liability today.
This lot needs to go, barring Sran, who seems in the same mould as the rest but I mean he can't really be sacked after 3 games. They show glimpses of potential, but return to being terrible very very quickly.
Thats not a bowler who has learnt anything in over 8 years of Int'l cricket. These are the small things class players do right. Also how someone who averages 36 with the ball is even the spearhead of any attack is shocking. Bhuvi I can't believe how far he is gone behind since the tour to England. A lot of people here are calling for Shami. To be honest they are all suffering from a common syndrome, whereby a player who is not playing, suddenly starts to seem more and more like the solution to everything. Shami is no better than the guys that were out there today.
Sran from what little I have seen of him (I am being very harsh but honest), seems in the exact mould of every other pacer we have. Forget line and length, just bowl short. Thats what every one of these seamers has done on the away tours and Sran seems no different. Pitch the ball up, don't bowl short, how hard is it? All he has done is bowl short in the past two games.
Rishi Dhawan did well today, he was not fast, but varied his pace, tried to bowl the right line and length and was economical. That is something Umesh needs to learn. Its all fine being fast but line and length matters. Umesh was a downright liability today.
This lot needs to go, barring Sran, who seems in the same mould as the rest but I mean he can't really be sacked after 3 games. They show glimpses of potential, but return to being terrible very very quickly.
Ohm
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Nope. I just questioned how an Indian bowler despite having great performances and records is considered to be an average just because he's an Indian bowler.
Since I follow Indian cricket a lot, I know how well Shami really bowls. If you don't or didn't in past, here are some stats which illustrate eligibility of him.
In sub-continent conditions where pitches are often favorable to spin, Shami took 34 wickets at an average of 25.58. That looks too good for a seamer in fact where conditions are most likely against seam. Considering Shami's overall stats, it's clear he's beyond just average as it's not like he played very few no. of matches so far in his career. He has played enough International cricket I suppose. Bowl average below 25 with not so expensive economy doesn't belong to any of categories that are behind first-class, imo. So, at least he should be called a first-class player, and I'm not even expecting to make him a legend before having a career. If you still rate Shami an average bowler then I won't understand the basis that made you think Aussie pace attack a world-class unit.
Just went through Hazlewood's statguru analysis, he never played in sub-continent like Shami did or Starc did. In truth, Starc is a world-class bowler, but Hazlewood a emerging talent and not yet a world-class player. All his performances have came in Australia, England and West Indies where everything is comfortable with pacers. I'll see how he and all other Australian bowlers from most recent squads will perform in sub-continent before labeling them world class or average or descent. (Ref. for this argument to your statement in which you said Aussies are world class bowlers whereas Shami is just average.)
At this point, I think your argument is all about all Aussie bowlers are world class because they're Aussie bowlers (to be frank, it sounds more like Aussie bowlers are born great). And also, because few Indian fast bowlers are suffering, it make even the better an ordinary player. In that case, I'm made to think Chanderpaul (who is an absolute legend with no douts) is an average batsman just because he's a West Indian player. If you go like this, there will be so many arguments against quality of a player which is unfairly based on the nation he plays for, which in my humble opinion would be invalid (as argument) as well as injudicious logic to decide criteria of players' rankings.
Sran is playing his debut series. He thinks bowling short on Australian pitches is cool and does that. I will do the same thing if I am a fast bowler who is playing his debut international series and sees pitches which give good bounce and carry to the bowlers. Sran should learn (but in Indian cricket, we rarely have seen people who mentor fast bowlers; so not sure how Sran will develop).
When is our next test series?
Maybe India might be given a rude jolt in its next away tour, but I feel India look way better in tests now and the LOI form has dipped to abysmal levels. Maybe there is some politics going on in the background to make it look like India's LOI form is so bad and the time for change has to happen. I don't know. I am talking only based on what I am reading/seeing. India have been grossly pathetic in ODI's and T20 in recent times.
When is our next test series?
Maybe India might be given a rude jolt in its next away tour, but I feel India look way better in tests now and the LOI form has dipped to abysmal levels. Maybe there is some politics going on in the background to make it look like India's LOI form is so bad and the time for change has to happen. I don't know. I am talking only based on what I am reading/seeing. India have been grossly pathetic in ODI's and T20 in recent times.I'm an England fan so I certainly don't have any loyalty to Australia. Far from it. I also don't pay much attention to stats. I go in what I see.
When Shami came to England, I went to watch quite a few of the games. In those games, I'm comparing him to the other bowlers playing. People like Broad, Anderson and Finn made Shami look very average. I would say he was on a par with someone like Tim Bresnan(an average international bowler).
It's got nothing to do with the fact that Shami is Indian. I just judge on what I see. I've been following cricket very closely since '99. In that time, I can only really say that I've enjoyed Zaheer Khan's bowling out of all the Indian seamers I've seen. Srinath wasn't bad, but I was watching him at the end of his career. I always thought RP Singh would end up be brilliant, but it didn't work out for him.
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