Pakistan tour of West Indies Apr/May 2011

[Papa_Smurf]

I'm hyped up now to see how the full WI team will go against India. Should be a juicy series.

This test was a juicy one as well. Loved every bit of it. That last wicket patnership of 49 turned out to be a match-winning won. The final margin of victory is 40 runs

Pak's young batting line-up is showing potential as well, which is good to see All 3 of Shafiq, Azhar and UAkmal have promising futures. And Misbah has proved to be a gem after gaining captaincy. They just need Younis or MoYo in the middle to show the youngsters how to play.

I agree that Sammy bowled well, but only because of the nature of the pitch. It assisted the slower bowlers well - Ajmal, Bishoo, Hafeez, Sammy and Rehamn were the major threats in the match. More accomplished and skillful fast bowlers than Sammy - Roach, Gul and Riaz - weren't that effective.

Young Bravo keeps impressing me everytime I see him. Defintley a Lara in the making. Simmons has shown good temprement, and once Gayle comes back, that will be a strong Windies opening patnership.

C Gayle
L Simmons
D Bravo
S Chanderpaul
R Sarwan
C Baugh (+)
D Sammy (*)
K Roach
J Taylor
F Edwards
D Bishoo

That's a juicy looking XI. Tail's a bit too long, but I'm loving that attack. Ideally, I would prefer to have Nash over Sammy, but since that isn't happening, I'd go in with the extra bowler.

 

[War]

Sammy has always been one to bowl brilliantly when he either gets help from the pitch or from the overhead conditions. He won't be good on a bouncy pitch in hot weather, he just won't have the pace or movement to help him out.

But like it or not, he is the captain and he has led his team to victory. He will play in the next match, but I suspect his bowling won't be all that good. On a flatter wicket they need another seamer.

Darren Sammy - I'm putting him lower down the order since I don't think his batting form is good recently. But he has to play.

All true about Sammy's obvious deficiencies when bowling on proper cricket wickets against better batting XIs in tests.

But i dont like these comments such as "like or not he is captain & he has to play". It almost like if many Windies fan are just resigned to accepting him as skipper - instead of forcefully calling for his saga as skipper to end abruptly.

You sound a knowledgeable fan based on your post here & im sure you will agree with regards to the Windies test side, if pick the Windies team based on logic, merit & any sane cricket tactics, their is no way Sammy should be allowed to make the best WI test XI, especially now with all bowlers fit & available. He however would be an almost sure pick in the ODI & T20 sides.

I'll be honest. Dwayne Bravo has done nothing over the past year or so to merit a consistent place in the test team. Yes he adds excellent fielding, but he has not been taking wickets with his bowling. And 20-odd runs isn't enough for a man who's supposed to be a top all-rounder. Limited overs, yes, I will say he deserves a spot. But not tests at the moment.

Yes DW Bravo's test place is no longer secure. WI have alot of quality middle-order batsmen these days in Young Bravo, Sarwan, C Paul, Nash, Samuels, Simmons (Simmons could also bat in the middle-order) to play form # 3 - # 6.

Plus potentially WI can have a solid 4-man attack of Roach/Taylor/Edwards or Rampaul/Bisoo (or maybe even a 4-man pace attack if the pitch conditions are right). Bravo use as 5th bowler is no longer needed.

But DW Bravo has alot of potential though. I think he should be doing for Windies what Watson is doing for Australia. Since if he can perform like quality top 6 batsman & chip in with regular wickets, he can aid in giving the Windies a quality 5-man test attack.

Bishoo is good, but I haven't seen him bowl a googly yet. Does he have one? He was also reluctant to go around the wicket and use the rough outside leg stump. But he's still young and he will learn and mature with time. And leggies are rare in world cricket nowadays.

I thinkkkk I saw him bowl the googly at times during the World Cup & at times during the recent ODIs/T20 vs PAK. But yea i dont recall him bowling it during this test at all. But yes of course its early days in his career.

Kemar Roach - I think he's out of touch a little but he bowled well in the second innings. He needs to learn how to adapt to the pitch conditions, but the only way that happens is by playing.

I wouldn't be too worried abt Roach although he looks out of touch currently indeed. As you would be well aware of, he has been basically carrying the WI attack on his own since the middle of 2009, which for 22 year old is tough work. This is first series in which he has looked a bit below par, so i wouldn't be worrying about him at all just yet. He should continuously be backed, since his potential is immense.

 

[War]

C Gayle
L Simmons
D Bravo
S Chanderpaul
R Sarwan
C Baugh (+)
D Sammy (*)
K Roach
J Taylor
F Edwards
D Bishoo

That's a juicy looking XI. Tail's a bit too long, but I'm loving that attack. Ideally, I would prefer to have Nash over Sammy, but since that isn't happening, I'd go in with the extra bowler.

The tail is too & Nash should be ahead of Sammy. Which is my point, once you pick Sammy you will either leave of a better batsman or better bowler, thus unbalance the team - which is what that XI is.

A good Indian test team will expose that deficiency, unless WI pick a perfectly balanced XI to try & maximize the best of their talents. As we saw recently in South Africa, when the SA selectors picked weak players such as Tsotsobe & Harris over De Wet & McLaren - IND where able to recover from position after surviving spells from Steyn/Morkel & come back/win tests/survive tests.

Windies playing those 1st two test vs IND or potentially very bouncy Barbados & Jamaica decks. I would think that means a perfect chance to sink it to India with a 4-man pace attack of Taylor/Roach/Edwards/Rampaul & give us a taste of old days. But now once has to worry abt fitting Sammy into that XI, which is plain dumb.

 

[BKB1991]

Very disappointed with the performance, the batting was weak and fragile but kudos to Windies for playing the way they did. Sammy answered his critics for the timebeing, but keep in mind this is easily one of the weakest international batsmen in this form of the game. He exploited the conditions brilliantly but the lack of ability from the Pakistanis is disappointing.

The pitch was definetly good to bowl on, but surely you needed some determination from the batsmen in the Pakistan team? Misbah looks like the only one capable of getting big scores, barring Shafiq who is still young. Makes you wonder that Pakistan need Younis and/or Yousef in the TESTs. If Younis makes it back in time its going to be tough leaving out UAkmal hes the only one who got scores in both innings. I might be tempted to take out Taufeeq Umar, get Ali to open and Younis to come at three. The bowling seems alright, but Gul needs to lead the pacers.

Windies suddenly look like a formidable bowling unit. I am still unconvinced with their batting, if Gayle comes back it will even be stronger. But I agree with War on regards with Sammy, hes holding a spot for the batsmen/bowler.

 

[STLIndian]

VVS Laxman- 7903 Test Runs
Entire Pakistan Team- 6999 Test runs

Test Series Wins in WI:
Bangladesh- 1
Pakistan- 0

On topic, it was a good win for WI, but I'd like to see them beating the big nations again, not just the minnows. And for Pakistan, all is not lost, the Hong Kong sixes should be coming up very soon.

 

[qpeedore]

Jamaica has flattened out a lot but it's still the most bouncy pitch in the West Indies. I'd still back the seamers there and they need to play three frontline quicks for that match. Roach, Taylor, Edwards, Rampaul. Three of those have to play in that match.

Barbados has all but turned into a batsman's paradise. There is bounce, but it's true and unless you've got guys who can bowl with pace consistently and use the bouncer sparingly, it's not going to be easy for them. I expect big scores and a declaration or two. Gayle's slow bowling will be useful to take some of the pressure off of Bishoo. Two outright quicks for that one unless they KNOW the pitch will be really good for bowling.

War, while I agree that Sammy's spot in the team keeps a better player out, you really shouldn't just drop the captain in the middle of a series. This is a young team and West Indies cricket always has some sort of off-field controversy stirring about. Having the guys adjust to a new captain just like that isn't something I see happening. Sammy has a good cricketing brain and once the results keep going our way, I think he should remain for the time being.

When we won, Sammy called the team into a huddle and spoke to them. That's something I've never seen from the West Indies and it's something that I absolutely loved. Captain cool Chris Gayle never did that. You need a leader to do things like that with an inexperienced team. Take Shiv and Sarwan away and I doubt you'd find 100 test caps combined among the rest of the squad.

I am not saying he should have been named captain in the first place. But the decision has been made and for the sake of the team, he should remain.

He really needs to work on his batting, though. He won't bowl well on unhelpful pitches and his batting will be the only thing keeping the world from talking him down yet again. 30-odd consistently is what he should be aiming for, with the occasional fifty and beyond.

 

[War]

Jamaica has flattened out a lot but it's still the most bouncy pitch in the West Indies. I'd still back the seamers there and they need to play three frontline quicks for that match. Roach, Taylor, Edwards, Rampaul. Three of those have to play in that match.


Barbados has all but turned into a batsman's paradise. There is bounce, but it's true and unless you've got guys who can bowl with pace consistently and use the bouncer sparingly, it's not going to be easy for them. I expect big scores and a declaration or two. Gayle's slow bowling will be useful to take some of the pressure off of Bishoo. Two outright quicks for that one unless they KNOW the pitch will be really good for bowling.

Kingston may not be its vintage self pace wise as it was during the 70s, 80s, 90s. But if i recall the tests played @ Kingston sine 2000 against the major teams, i dont recall a flat Kingston pitch ever to be honest. Almost has the batsmen jumping.

It would be a bit harsh to Barbados has turned into a batting paradise even though it has flattened our for sure since the 1990s. The only two pitches i recall since 2000s that where real roads in the last decade was:

- 2003 vs Australia. When Steve Waugh called it the worst pitch he even played on.

- 2009 vs England.

In the other tests played during the decade. The Oval had great life for the quicks for the the 1st 2-2.5/3 days. Then it flatted out. I recall alot of test @ Barbados since 2000, where a few sides teams where bowled out for around 250 etc

War, while I agree that Sammy's spot in the team keeps a better player out, you really shouldn't just drop the captain in the middle of a series. This is a young team and West Indies cricket always has some sort of off-field controversy stirring about. Having the guys adjust to a new captain just like that isn't something I see happening. Sammy has a good cricketing brain and once the results keep going our way, I think he should remain for the time being.

It not really a young team anymore though. As i mentioned before, Windies currently have its best mixture of solid experience players (Gayle, C Paul, Sarwan, Taylor, Nash, DW Bravo, Edwards) & talented youth (Roach, Bishoo, Young Bravo, Simmons, Barath) since the Richie Richardson era as skipper in the mid-90s.

So really even if Windies where to axe Sammy as captain after the Pakistan series ends, by the time India arrives, i dont see if affecting the team morale one bit really. Sammy personally may feel hurt, but he will get over it.

Pakistan change captains all the time for non cricketening reasons all the time & the team still manages to step up @ the right times. England crica 2008/2009 made Cook & Pietersen skippers then abruptly axed them for respective reasons & the ODI side didn;t suffer. So if by the end of the PAK series the WI selectors & coach approach Sammy & say..."thank you for efforts as skipper Darren over the last couple of months, but we feel that Gayle & co back we can do better in the test set-up & will be relieving you test skipper. However you remain a very valuable player to us in the ODI/T20 side. Then just move on.

When we won, Sammy called the team into a huddle and spoke to them. That's something I've never seen from the West Indies and it's something that I absolutely loved. Captain cool Chris Gayle never did that. You need a leader to do things like that with an inexperienced team. Take Shiv and Sarwan away and I doubt you'd find 100 test caps combined among the rest of the squad.

I am not saying he should have been named captain in the first place. But the decision has been made and for the sake of the team, he should remain.

He really needs to work on his batting, though. He won't bowl well on unhelpful pitches and his batting will be the only thing keeping the world from talking him down yet again. 30-odd consistently is what he should be aiming for, with the occasional fifty and beyond.

Im pretty sure i saw the Windies team huddle before somewhere & a skipper spoke, when they won a test. Probably it wasn't Gayle - maybe it was under Lara or Hooper or Jimmy Adams. But they dont win many of them, so obviously such a nice sight isn't seen often as far as WI fans are concerned. But dont let a imagery of a team huddle, mask the obvious problems.

Also you highlighted the obvious area's he needs to work on to probably become useful on tests consistently (area's i dont think he will ever reach however). Test cricket shouldn't be a training ground for players, it for players who are the finished article. Only players who can be allowed to use test cricket as a training field is players who have displayed that he have the raw skills that have proven to bring success at test @ the highest level (such as Roach or Bishoo). They didn't have a long strong first-class careers before selection, so they are basically learning on the job currently.

Sammy however was always never suited for tests & when you have as we both know Taylor/Roach/Edwards & a in form Rampaul as you quicks. By all strong cricket logics, Sammy just cant merit a place.

 

[westindies2007]

Sammy maybe a Crappy Player like many suggestion.
But he havent lost a Test Match as Captain yet.

Vs Sri Lanka 3 Draws (all 3 was effected by Rain)
Vs PAkistan 1 win

Still For me Sammy Need to improve more on his Bowler or Batting and According to his Position he seem he trying to focus more on his batting.

Sammy Test Performance with the Ball. Still young in Test Match.
Matches: 12
Innings : 21
Balls: 1990
Runs: 945
Wkts: 35
BBI: 7/66 (Test Debut against England)
BBM: 8/98 (Test Debut against England)
Avg: 26.25
Econ: 2.84
S/R: 55.2
5w: 4 (England, Bangladesh,Bangladesh, Pakistan)


For the 2nd Test now.
I would rest K Roach because he is going thought this Patch.
Bring in F Edwards for him.

I would chaneg up the Line up a little Now. By Dropping D Smith and Bring in Samuels

My 2nd Test Squad
L Simmon, S Chanderpaul, D Bravo, R Sarwan, B Nash, M Samuels, C Baugh, D Sammy, D Bishoo, R Rampal and F Edwards.


But If West Indies is going to Move Forward. I think WICB should Give Sarwan a contact and the Captaincy and DONT give it to Gayle.
Sarwan is currently the only good person who can lead the Team. along with this old and New player. And yes, i wouldn't have Sammy in My Test nor ODI, but i would keep him in my T20.

one thing I like about Sammy. and again i know alot of people wouldnt agree with what i said. But unlike Gayle, Sammy have West Indies at heart and would never turn his Back against them dont matter what they do, he isnt talented, but when he goes out there he give his 101%.

And Again Chris Gayle was of of my favorite Player out of everyone played out there. I would even pick him over Lara, But What Lara did was great. he Save west indies many time ,even when we was been critics by the Media, when the WICB was doing wrong against him. He even Retired and Came back for West Indies to be Captain and Still give his 100 %.

While Gayle on the other Hand just leave West Indies stranding. If he would sign that contract and wouldn't put himself as a Free lancer, and If he had West Indies Cricket at heart, we would see better Cricket From West Indies.
and the way he is Soo consistent when he is getting big Money in the IPL, why cant he be more consistant like this for west Indies and save us from been disgrace. they need to be MORE commeted to WI than just talking and say they commeted and then dont sign contract and want to be a freelancer to Play T20 around the world. What lack with these Player is playing for Pride of the West Indies like the old player. What West Indies really mean to us in the west indies these new player dont understand it. It's all about money now thats it.

 

[sami ullah khan]

Played like cowards and lost like cowards. It was a gutless and pathetic batting and fielding attempt. Captaincy was also below average. Captain allowed tail to wag for windies in both innings and their score was what made the difference. Also Umar Gul was useless and wasted a review when he got out. I am appalled at how our batting has handled sammy. No other team in the world would play him so timidly. Indians will murder such bowling when they tour. Umar Akmal is another Yousaf in the making. He will never get Pakistan across the line in tough situations. Mark my words.
Even if we win the next match, it won't be enough to undo the cowardly attitude that has become a trademark for our batsmen.

 

[Slowcoach]

Yea all true about those bowlers. But as selector i have no worries of issues backing the ability via guesswork (also international performance in ODIs in the case of Bishoo) of Edwards, Bishoo, Rampaul in tests because in test history (especially in the cases of Edwards & Bishoo) their styles of bowling have proven continuously to bring success @ test level.

Instead of hopeless sticking with Sammy, whose style of bowling on modern-day flat pitches is proven recipe for failure.



Well hopefully those whispers come to pass indeed.

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Very big & strange calls of Rampaul's & Bishoo's test match bowling credentials id say. Careful you could have egg on your face in the coming years.

Ok, I have egg on my face, but I doubt WI can carry this pitch and this opposition batting lineup around the world with them for the next 10 years.

I will just blame the pitch.
Evidence to support this?
Sammy took wickets.

Oh wait, I already talked up Sammy...well, he did end up with better figures than both Rampaul and Bishoo.

----------

Sammy maybe a Crappy Player like many suggestion.
But he havent lost a Test Match as Captain yet.

Vs Sri Lanka 3 Draws (all 3 was effected by Rain)
Vs PAkistan 1 win

Still For me Sammy Need to improve more on his Bowler or Batting and According to his Position he seem he trying to focus more on his batting.

Sammy Test Performance with the Ball. Still young in Test Match.
Matches: 12
Innings : 21
Balls: 1990
Runs: 945
Wkts: 35
BBI: 7/66 (Test Debut against England)
BBM: 8/98 (Test Debut against England)
Avg: 26.25
Econ: 2.84
S/R: 55.2
5w: 4 (England, Bangladesh,Bangladesh, Pakistan)


For the 2nd Test now.
I would rest K Roach because he is going thought this Patch.
Bring in F Edwards for him.

I would chaneg up the Line up a little Now. By Dropping D Smith and Bring in Samuels

My 2nd Test Squad
L Simmon, S Chanderpaul, D Bravo, R Sarwan, B Nash, M Samuels, C Baugh, D Sammy, D Bishoo, R Rampal and F Edwards.


But If West Indies is going to Move Forward. I think WICB should Give Sarwan a contact and the Captaincy and DONT give it to Gayle.
Sarwan is currently the only good person who can lead the Team. along with this old and New player. And yes, i wouldn't have Sammy in My Test nor ODI, but i would keep him in my T20.

one thing I like about Sammy. and again i know alot of people wouldnt agree with what i said. But unlike Gayle, Sammy have West Indies at heart and would never turn his Back against them dont matter what they do, he isnt talented, but when he goes out there he give his 101%.

And Again Chris Gayle was of of my favorite Player out of everyone played out there. I would even pick him over Lara, But What Lara did was great. he Save west indies many time ,even when we was been critics by the Media, when the WICB was doing wrong against him. He even Retired and Came back for West Indies to be Captain and Still give his 100 %.

While Gayle on the other Hand just leave West Indies stranding. If he would sign that contract and wouldn't put himself as a Free lancer, and If he had West Indies Cricket at heart, we would see better Cricket From West Indies.
and the way he is Soo consistent when he is getting big Money in the IPL, why cant he be more consistant like this for west Indies and save us from been disgrace. they need to be MORE commeted to WI than just talking and say they commeted and then dont sign contract and want to be a freelancer to Play T20 around the world. What lack with these Player is playing for Pride of the West Indies like the old player. What West Indies really mean to us in the west indies these new player dont understand it. It's all about money now thats it.

I say Sammy only has WI at heart while he is too crap to earn an IPL contract.

 

[angryangy]

I am appalled at how our batting has handled sammy. No other team in the world would play him so timidly

I think most teams would have because he doesn't average 4 rpo in Tests. Teams like Sri Lanka and England have also tended to get bogged down against him, most notably in that match not long ago where he bowled something like a 20 over spell for a couple of wickets and about as many runs. Even for Australia, who really liked facing him at the Adelaide Oval, didn't so much at Sabina Park. On such a tricky pitch, you've got to give credit to anyone who managed to score runs, because any straightish ball was potentially a wicket. It's almost bemusing that Umar Gul and Kemar Roach struggled because the bowlers who thrived used such simple strategies.

 

[cricket_icon]

man a terrible terrible batting performance from Pakistan. I take nothing away from Rampaul and Bishoo but Sammy...really??? he is at best a 3rd rate bowler with very little variety but Pakistan played him like he was Steyn. unforgivable mistakes made by the batsmen as always and it is not so much to do with the techniques involved but the temperament. Many players have got starts but none have managed to string together big runs...and not being able to make 200...twice against this WI is remarkable.

----------

I think Pakistan have to be more attacking in the second game. Take out Rehman who I FIND ABSOLUTELY USELESS. Ajmal and Hafeez do a good enough job in teh spin department and another fast bowler should come in for Rehman. I'm not sure who's in the squad, but Tanvir Ahmed is ok, not a long term solution but if the squad was better....for the WI why don't they play a three man pace attack? They can get rid of one of their batsmen, they haven'y done much anyway.

 

[Papa_Smurf]

The tail is too & Nash should be ahead of Sammy. Which is my point, once you pick Sammy you will either leave of a better batsman or better bowler, thus unbalance the team - which is what that XI is.

A good Indian test team will expose that deficiency, unless WI pick a perfectly balanced XI to try & maximize the best of their talents. As we saw recently in South Africa, when the SA selectors picked weak players such as Tsotsobe & Harris over De Wet & McLaren - IND where able to recover from position after surviving spells from Steyn/Morkel & come back/win tests/survive tests.

Windies playing those 1st two test vs IND or potentially very bouncy Barbados & Jamaica decks. I would think that means a perfect chance to sink it to India with a 4-man pace attack of Taylor/Roach/Edwards/Rampaul & give us a taste of old days. But now once has to worry abt fitting Sammy into that XI, which is plain dumb.

I agree the XI I picked was unbalanced, and the tail was way too long. That's why I would have preferred Nash over Sammy. But Sammy's not going anytime soon, so I picked the extra bowler. If WI have to have any chance of winning that Test series, they need to take 20 Indian wickets. Roach, Taylor, Edwards, Rampaul/Bishoo gives them that chance. Plus, it's not like the WI are facing a deadly attack, so I think they can afford to leave out Nash for that extra bowler.

But yeah, in an ideal world, I would have:

C Gayle (*)
L Simmons
D Bravo
S Chanderpaul
R Sarwan
B Nash
C Baugh (+)
K Roach
J Taylor
F Edwards
D Bishoo/R Rampaul

 

[Rehan_24]

Relax guys, Windies didnt win it, Pak lost it as always against weaker and unexpected teams. Just the way they make Simmons a huge Bowler back in 1993 in the World Series Cup in Australia. So Relax LoLZ

 

[riz7khan12]

@ Papa Smurf - what about barath he surely deserves to be in the XI so this would be my lineup.

1. Chris Gayle
2. Adrian Barath
3. Lendl Simmons
4. Shivnarine Chanderpaul
5. Ramnaresh Sarwan
6. Darren Bravo
7. Carlton Baugh+
8. Darren Sammy*
9. Jerome Taylor/Devendra Bishoo
10. Fidel Edwards
11. Kemar Roach

I rather have Bishoo in the side over taylor/edwards, Sammy has to keep performing like he is because atm he's the clear weak link in the side who is neither good at batting or bowling and he was made the captain so there's extra pressure on him.

I think if Barath is fit enough he should be replacing Nash in the side, Nash hasn't made much for the Windies in the recent history add to that they also need someone like Simmons to keep so that Dwayne Bravo can come into the side making it even stronger.