Ravinder Jadeja & Yusuf Pathan
- Thread starter icyman
- Start date
you don't have enough facts and stats to back up what you are saying, you are just trying to win by saying things which are not even good enough to prove your point. And IPL can never be bigger than International cricket, but atleast it is bigger than or domestic cricket. Players who perform there have to be considered for the international matches. You certainly don't have any answers to certain things,that's why you are trying to end the topic.
And I totally agree with Karan316.
He has all the facts and stats to backup what he says.
Certain things which he told are just really interesting,
like dropping Dravid for performing bad in just one series,
Irfan Pathan not given a second chance, and Balaji gets a chance even though he never really showed anything special.
Harbhajan not performing since last 80 odd ODIs,he is just there as he is the best friend of MS Dhoni.
Yusuf Pathan performing under other captains but not under Dhoni.
Under Gambhir he was brilliant in the 5 ODI series both with the bat and ball.
Dinesh Karthik sidelined and never really got to play a few matches in a row like Murali Vijay or an Abhinav Mukund who is getting very good opportunities.
Ashwin gets selected because of his IPL performances but not Rahul Sharma.
Even though there were bowlers who had done way better in the Ranji trophy than Ashwin.
and i would like to add a few things aswell,
Abhishek Nayar got selected for the ODI team but just got one match to play and he didn't even get to bat in it. It was a time when he was performing well in domestic as well as IPL cricket.
Pragyan Ojha got to play 16 ODIs in which he performed very well but was still dropped.
Dhoni's preference of Ashish Nehra over other bowlers was quite baffling. And to hide his inability he always gave him easy conditions to bowl in.
Player's like Harbhajan, Nehra, Murali Vijay, Ashwin, Abhinav Mukund,etc.etc. get repeated opportunities just because of politics and friendship.
He has all the facts and stats to backup what he says.
Certain things which he told are just really interesting,
like dropping Dravid for performing bad in just one series,
Irfan Pathan not given a second chance, and Balaji gets a chance even though he never really showed anything special.
Harbhajan not performing since last 80 odd ODIs,he is just there as he is the best friend of MS Dhoni.
Yusuf Pathan performing under other captains but not under Dhoni.
Under Gambhir he was brilliant in the 5 ODI series both with the bat and ball.
Dinesh Karthik sidelined and never really got to play a few matches in a row like Murali Vijay or an Abhinav Mukund who is getting very good opportunities.
Ashwin gets selected because of his IPL performances but not Rahul Sharma.
Even though there were bowlers who had done way better in the Ranji trophy than Ashwin.
and i would like to add a few things aswell,
Abhishek Nayar got selected for the ODI team but just got one match to play and he didn't even get to bat in it. It was a time when he was performing well in domestic as well as IPL cricket.
Pragyan Ojha got to play 16 ODIs in which he performed very well but was still dropped.
Dhoni's preference of Ashish Nehra over other bowlers was quite baffling. And to hide his inability he always gave him easy conditions to bowl in.
Player's like Harbhajan, Nehra, Murali Vijay, Ashwin, Abhinav Mukund,etc.etc. get repeated opportunities just because of politics and friendship.
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Actually I've seen these debates before, and there are loads of stats to prove you wrong. Yusuf's performed better than expected, I'll give you that, but not enough to displace any of our proper batsmen and his bowling at international level has been not been significantly better than Raina or Yuvraj.
As for Irfan, I'll dig up his stats from the latter part of his career so you'll see why he was dropped. Not to mention, he was injured for close to a year until the IPL, where he wasn't even that good.
Pandey is raw. Lots of talent, needs to polish it before he can be considered. Can he open? Maybe. Is he a more viable candidate that Kohli or Raina? No way.
Sehwag played internationally in the middle order before thrust to open. And he is a one off case. A make-shift opener does not always work, most of the time it fails.
So in either case, Pandey has to break it into the middle order first, which he can't. And why pick a raw talent not used to opening over an accomplished domestic opener?
Parthiv Patel and KDK both dominate domestically, but KDK failed on numerous occasions. I'll dig up stats later. But it reached the point where they had enough of him. I feel he got a rough deal, was in and out of the side, shuffled up and down a lot...but to Parthiv's credit he came in and performed well right away. He deserves his second shot, KDK did deserve to be dropped.
And FYI, the IPL is rubbish. Ojha and Mishra weren't picked off the IPL, they were picked off domestic performances. Gony was picked off the IPL, and that KKR fast bowler with the high jump and headband. See how they ended up?
Also, Vijay has been dropped too incase you haven't noticed. Vijay started well, then started to fail, and was given the chop and Mukund was called in. So I don't see why you're complaining about that.
And when was Balaji given a second chance after a bad season? He was picked in 2009 of the basis of a strong domestic season after injury IIRC. Infact, Cricinfo confirms it:
As for Irfan, I'll dig up his stats from the latter part of his career so you'll see why he was dropped. Not to mention, he was injured for close to a year until the IPL, where he wasn't even that good.
Pandey is raw. Lots of talent, needs to polish it before he can be considered. Can he open? Maybe. Is he a more viable candidate that Kohli or Raina? No way.
Sehwag played internationally in the middle order before thrust to open. And he is a one off case. A make-shift opener does not always work, most of the time it fails.
So in either case, Pandey has to break it into the middle order first, which he can't. And why pick a raw talent not used to opening over an accomplished domestic opener?
Parthiv Patel and KDK both dominate domestically, but KDK failed on numerous occasions. I'll dig up stats later. But it reached the point where they had enough of him. I feel he got a rough deal, was in and out of the side, shuffled up and down a lot...but to Parthiv's credit he came in and performed well right away. He deserves his second shot, KDK did deserve to be dropped.
And FYI, the IPL is rubbish. Ojha and Mishra weren't picked off the IPL, they were picked off domestic performances. Gony was picked off the IPL, and that KKR fast bowler with the high jump and headband. See how they ended up?
Also, Vijay has been dropped too incase you haven't noticed. Vijay started well, then started to fail, and was given the chop and Mukund was called in. So I don't see why you're complaining about that.
And when was Balaji given a second chance after a bad season? He was picked in 2009 of the basis of a strong domestic season after injury IIRC. Infact, Cricinfo confirms it:
I didn't say Yusuf is better than Yuvraj. And Raina is yet to prove his worth.
I am not comparing anyone, but the way Yusuf is handled is my main issue. MS Dhoni hasn't given that support to him. He is biased towards some players and gives them a lot of opportunities and smartly sidelines the players whom he doesnt like. Why is he a completely different player under Warne And Gambhir?
He played so well in the ODIs when Gambhir was captain. His bowling was also very good,he got a very good chance to bowl and bat under him.
He is an impact player, such aggressive players need time to develop, they can win you matches which a normal traditional cricketer can't. Even Robin uthappa was wasted by poor management.
Yes he was injured, but before injury he had performed very well in the domestic arena to get a second chance. And he should have got a second chance because he is the only fast bowling all rounder India has and he can bring a lot of stability especially in tests as India doesnt have a good bowling lineup, India can go with five bowlers if Irfan is selected . You can check his records, even in the last test match he played, he remained not out in both the innings while others got out cheaply on a fast wicket against South Africa. He did lost his bowling a bit but he was contributing really well to the team and would have revived himself if given a chance.
You are right in saying that Raina and Kohli are better,but wat about Mukund, even he didn't play international cricket before going to West Indies, atleast Manish Pandey has the experience of playing against quality international bowlers and more importantly he was the highest scorer in the recent domestic season.
You are wrong,there are many,
Shane Watson,Tillakaratne Dilshan,etc.
No problem with Parthiv Patel's selection, but Dinesh Karthik never got to play regularly like Murali Vijay or like a Rohit Sharma. He got his chances in bits and pieces. That's never good for a player's confidence. Players like Vijay, Sharma, Ashwin, Nehra, Harbhajan,etc. who are Dhoni's favourites get regular opportunities and get a settled role to play.
And talkin about performances, why is Harbhajan still in the ODI team?
has managed to take 3 wickets or more just 8 times in his previous 80 ODIs. He should be thankful to Dhoni.
Ojha and Mishra have always performed well in the domestic arena.
But they were selected after their performances in the IPL. Ojha got selected first time right after the IPL. Mishra was rated highly after his performances in the IPL ,otherwise Murali Karthik was preferred over him.
Gony was picked because he was in CSK, and his performances in the IPL weren't that great to get selected. He never had a brilliant IPL. Ashok Dinda was picked because of his strong domestic performance and his pace, what did he do in the IPL to get selected? Don't blame IPL for no reason. It has helped a lot of Indian youngsters to develop.
I know Vijay is dropped, but he never deserved to play 31 innings before getting dropped, Robin Utthapa or Manish Pandey are the only replacements for a player like Virender Sehwag, India already has a lot of good defensive players. There has to be an aggresive player at the top of the order.
Dhaval Kulkarni took 42 wickets in the same tournament, he didn't get a chance.
Balaji had just 1 good tournament and he got selected, what about others who perform consistently in the domestic matches? there are many bowlers who perform very well for years in the ranji trophy, but are not given a single chance,for e.g. Pankaj Singh. And a player does not get a chance by just one good ranji season.
First lets dispel a few myths:
Yusuf has only 5 games under Gambhir, against New Zealand where he picked up 8 wickets. Ross Taylor, Vettori (thrice), Hopkins, Styris, Mills and Nathan McCullum. Mostly lower order batsmen, and mostly at the end of the innings. His economy was 5.15 and average 16.75
Not hugely impressive. Ashwin and Yuvraj picked up quite a few wickets as well in that series; it was played in India on spinning decks and for the large part was one-sided.
For the rest of YK's career, his bowling has been mediocre. Not up to scratch.
Secondly, how has Raina not proved himself. Explain yourself. Raina has done everything asked off him and has performed exceptionally. As has Kohli.
Third, the IPL doesn't mean anything. Dale Steyn himself has said he treated it like a nice long paid holiday with some cricket in between. If you're going to insist that is close to international standard and that selection for Test cricket should be based on T20...then you're not going to win this debate.
Fourth, Vijay is an aggressive opener. He's not defensive. It was tendency to play shots to deliveries that didn't need it that led to him being dropped. And your argument fails on both counts, Vijay has opened most of his career with Sehwag, not replacing Sehwag.
For every successful make shift opener there are atleast twice as many failures. VVS Laxman, Dinesh Karthik, Robin Uthappa come to mind for India.
And Kulkarni has been selected for India A and is only 22 years old. His performances haven't gone unnoticed. He was actually in the India Test squad to New Zealand in 2009 - same year Balaji was picked. So I don't see why you're complaining about that.
Yusuf has only 5 games under Gambhir, against New Zealand where he picked up 8 wickets. Ross Taylor, Vettori (thrice), Hopkins, Styris, Mills and Nathan McCullum. Mostly lower order batsmen, and mostly at the end of the innings. His economy was 5.15 and average 16.75
Not hugely impressive. Ashwin and Yuvraj picked up quite a few wickets as well in that series; it was played in India on spinning decks and for the large part was one-sided.
For the rest of YK's career, his bowling has been mediocre. Not up to scratch.
Secondly, how has Raina not proved himself. Explain yourself. Raina has done everything asked off him and has performed exceptionally. As has Kohli.
Third, the IPL doesn't mean anything. Dale Steyn himself has said he treated it like a nice long paid holiday with some cricket in between. If you're going to insist that is close to international standard and that selection for Test cricket should be based on T20...then you're not going to win this debate.
Fourth, Vijay is an aggressive opener. He's not defensive. It was tendency to play shots to deliveries that didn't need it that led to him being dropped. And your argument fails on both counts, Vijay has opened most of his career with Sehwag, not replacing Sehwag.
For every successful make shift opener there are atleast twice as many failures. VVS Laxman, Dinesh Karthik, Robin Uthappa come to mind for India.
This, is just not true. Mishra was always highly rated, he was always in the fringes. Both Mishra and Ojha received debuts when they did because Kumble retired, not because they did well in the IPL. And Kartik wasn't preferred over them, I wish he was, Kartik hasn't played since 2004. Mishra and Ojha debuted in 2008 and 2009 respectively. Kumble retired in 2008.
And Kulkarni has been selected for India A and is only 22 years old. His performances haven't gone unnoticed. He was actually in the India Test squad to New Zealand in 2009 - same year Balaji was picked. So I don't see why you're complaining about that.
shravi
National Board President
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2005
- Profile Flag
- India
Zorax, just drop it. These two don't even understand that performances in IPL don't count for anything when it comes to test selection. You can't really debate with someone when the whole premise for their argument is flawed.
Bevab
Staff Member
Well said Shravi.
They do consider IPL seriously. Pandey has faced quality international bowlers?!
Raina has not proved himself?!
Yusuf has to improve. Just scoring 20 runs in very few balls will not justify your selection. Irfan's bowling is waste. And why do India need his batting when they already got players to cover that area.
And Karthik was really terrible. A once in the blue moon kinda player.
And how can Pandey become an international replacement for Sehwag?! Care to explain?
Explain all these points, or say
and admit defeat.
They do consider IPL seriously. Pandey has faced quality international bowlers?!
Raina has not proved himself?!
Yusuf has to improve. Just scoring 20 runs in very few balls will not justify your selection. Irfan's bowling is waste. And why do India need his batting when they already got players to cover that area.
And Karthik was really terrible. A once in the blue moon kinda player.
And how can Pandey become an international replacement for Sehwag?! Care to explain?
Explain all these points, or say
and admit defeat.What you mean? Taylor, Vettori, Mcullum are not good players?
Mills is the only easy one out of these. And he didn't even bowl his full 10 overs in any of the matches ,HE just bowled a total of 26 overs in that series,lesser than others and also bowled in the power plays. Despite of that if he picks 8 wickets in 5 matches than its good enough i guess.
Mr. MS Dhoni hasn't given him that many good opportunities in 50 over cricket to bowl.
He makes him bowl in the wrong situations all the time to get him off the attack.
Even Suresh Raina does it, most recent example is the India West Indies T20, Yusuf bowled three economical overs and Raina made him bowl his 4th over when 33 were required off 6 balls and the West Indies batsman were hitting the Indian bowlers out of the park. He could have kept Harbhajan or any of the fast bowlers for that, but he kept Yusuf for that over to spoil his figures. All these things are usually done to him, nothing new.
Raina is yet to prove his Test selection. In ODIs he is good. I have not questioned anything about Kohli,he deserves his spot. Please read carefuly what i say.
I never said that test selection should be done only on the basis of IPL.
If a guy is performing well in the domestic arena for long and also has experience in the IPL, then he should be preferred over the players who has only played domestic cricket. The players who play only domestic cricket should also be selected. But players playing in the IPL get more exposure and get to learn a lot from the international cricketers.
His ODI strike rate is 61.82, i don't need to say more.
You check your stats, see how many times he has batted with Sehwag in ODI cricket. Most of the time he was in place of Sehwag. He batted with Sehwag for a few innings in tests though. In ODIs he doesn't look good as an opener, He lacks that aggression and attitude which a Robin Utthapa or a Manish Pandey possess or the versatility of Dinesh Karthik. In tests,he can be okay playing alongside Sehwag, but without Sehwag, it would not be a good idea, atleast one of the opener has to be aggresive so that the opponents are worried about the runrate when bowling otherwise they will just keep attacking.
Robin Utthapa was not a make shift opener, he is a specialist opener and didn't get opportunities to open in a lot of matches(check your stats again plz) And Dinesh Karthik never got a proper chance, he never got regular opportunities, he was always in and out of the team, he should have been tested for the New Zealand and South Africa series before world cup. It would have given a fair idea about what he has got.
Both Ojha and Mishra bowled well in domestic matches. But they came into the limelight and left others behind when they performed so well in the IPL. Mishra took a hat trick in the IPL and Ojha was known for his economical bowling. This gave them a direct entry into the international scene leaving Murali Karthik behind.
And Kumble got injured and retired after Mishra was selected for the tests. If they wouldn't have performed well in the IPL then Murali Karthik would have replaced Kumble in tests and Ojha would have been competing with other domestic spinners who were also good at domestic level.
Yap, he did got selected with Balaji, but Balaji got to play and he didn't. Even though he had performed better than Balaji.
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Manish Pandey has faced bowlers like Dale Steyn, Brett Lee, Shane Warne ,Muralidharan, Daniel Vettori, Zaheer Khan,etc. in IPL.
Even though its T20, it gives you exposure. In domestic cricket you never get to face such great bowlers.
I agree Yusuf has to improve, but Dhoni also has to give him a fair chance. He is surely biased towards a few players. Promoting Yusuf would be a competition to Raina for the number 7 slot in ODIs , Raina has not done much in the ODIs apart from the 2 thirties in the World Cup recently,he failed miserably before world
cup against South Africa and the same continued with the West Indies. Dhoni is trying to push Yusuf down for Raina's security. He is even making Raina bowl in easy situations to prove that he is an all rounder for e.g. He made Raina bowl right before to the lower order batsman of England when they were going to declare in both the innings,in such cases you usually bowl your main bowlers as the batsmen is playing rash shots and is definitely going to give away his wicket after one or two good hits, and it also helps to build your bowler's confidence as he gets a wicket.
Dhoni has to give fair chances to all before a player gets judged.
Irfan Pathan's record- 29 tests 100 wickets and 1 century and 6 fifties,
And he does not deserve a second chance? i guess you are joking, even Wasim Akram and Ravi Shastri were saying during the lord's test that he should be chosen as the 5th bowling option who can bat aswell as he has got his rhythm and fitness back.
Karthik didn't perform in the 4 matches he played in his last series, but he was always in and out of the team, he was called as a backup opener most of the times when Sehwag got injured. Its never easy to perform that way, Murali Vijay failed so many times before he got dropped, even Karthik deserved such chances. A player may get to play 50 matches, but if he is given a chance to play two ODIs and then called back to play another two after two three months and so on,then you cannot judge him as you are not allowing him to settle.
Look at Abhinav Mukund, or Vijay, Vijay got to play regular test matches, Vijay even played the whole West Indies test series even though he was not performing. Mukund is getting such a good opportunity, that's what
you call a real opportunity to perform and show your skills. Rohit Sharma got chances every now and then, he finally succeeded against the West Indies, Nehra got so many chances despite of failures ,etc there are many more such examples. Why are a group of youngsters given a special treatment?
Please read my comments properly before saying something. What i meant was that Manish Pandey deserves a chance to play in place of Virender Sehwag(If Sehwag is injured) as he is an attacking player and was the highest run getter in the domestic arena and also has experiece of facing international bowlers, he should be given chances instead of Murali Vijay or Abhinav Mukund as they both are defensive players and India already has a lot of defensive batsman. Abhinav Mukund does deserve a chance but in case of Sehwag's injury an attacking player like him should replace him as it adds more stability to the team.
Manish Pandey has faced bowlers like Dale Steyn, Brett Lee, Shane Warne ,Muralidharan, Daniel Vettori, Zaheer Khan,etc. in IPL.
Even though its T20, it gives you exposure. In domestic cricket you never get to face such great bowlers.
He is good enough for ODIs,But he should justify his selection in Tests over the World Cup man of the series Yuvraj Singh who can bowl ten times better than Raina, Indian bowling lineup is not so strong, In that case, a left arm spinner would add a lot of variety to the team. Then why is Raina selected over him? Please don't say that he was selected because he performed well in the warm up match or in West Indies, because that cannot overshadow Yuvraj's marathon performance in World Cup. And talking about that, Irfan Pathan had scored a century in a warm up game against South Africa but still didn't get selected to play the 1st test against them as a fifth bowler and a number 7 batsman,thats not a big thing, players do perform in the warm up games but don't get to play.
I agree Yusuf has to improve, but Dhoni also has to give him a fair chance. He is surely biased towards a few players. Promoting Yusuf would be a competition to Raina for the number 7 slot in ODIs , Raina has not done much in the ODIs apart from the 2 thirties in the World Cup recently,he failed miserably before world
cup against South Africa and the same continued with the West Indies. Dhoni is trying to push Yusuf down for Raina's security. He is even making Raina bowl in easy situations to prove that he is an all rounder for e.g. He made Raina bowl right before to the lower order batsman of England when they were going to declare in both the innings,in such cases you usually bowl your main bowlers as the batsmen is playing rash shots and is definitely going to give away his wicket after one or two good hits, and it also helps to build your bowler's confidence as he gets a wicket.
Dhoni has to give fair chances to all before a player gets judged.
Irfan Pathan's record- 29 tests 100 wickets and 1 century and 6 fifties,
And he does not deserve a second chance? i guess you are joking, even Wasim Akram and Ravi Shastri were saying during the lord's test that he should be chosen as the 5th bowling option who can bat aswell as he has got his rhythm and fitness back.
Karthik didn't perform in the 4 matches he played in his last series, but he was always in and out of the team, he was called as a backup opener most of the times when Sehwag got injured. Its never easy to perform that way, Murali Vijay failed so many times before he got dropped, even Karthik deserved such chances. A player may get to play 50 matches, but if he is given a chance to play two ODIs and then called back to play another two after two three months and so on,then you cannot judge him as you are not allowing him to settle.
Look at Abhinav Mukund, or Vijay, Vijay got to play regular test matches, Vijay even played the whole West Indies test series even though he was not performing. Mukund is getting such a good opportunity, that's what
you call a real opportunity to perform and show your skills. Rohit Sharma got chances every now and then, he finally succeeded against the West Indies, Nehra got so many chances despite of failures ,etc there are many more such examples. Why are a group of youngsters given a special treatment?
Please read my comments properly before saying something. What i meant was that Manish Pandey deserves a chance to play in place of Virender Sehwag(If Sehwag is injured) as he is an attacking player and was the highest run getter in the domestic arena and also has experiece of facing international bowlers, he should be given chances instead of Murali Vijay or Abhinav Mukund as they both are defensive players and India already has a lot of defensive batsman. Abhinav Mukund does deserve a chance but in case of Sehwag's injury an attacking player like him should replace him as it adds more stability to the team.
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You guys are trying to prove your things just by mere words without any facts or stats. And you are getting everyone's attention off from the main issue by taking it in another direction.
The main issue is the politics played in the team and Dhoni's biased nature towards some players.
Now lets get right on the main topic. Does Shravi, Bevab or Zoraxdoom have answers to these questions.
Harbhajan has got 3 wickets or more in only 8 occassions out of his previous 80 ODIs but is still in the ODI side, any strong reason for that apart from his friendship with Dhoni?
Rahul Dravid dropped for after just 1 bad series,what reason can you give for this?
Irfan Pathan never got a second chance even though he picked 100 wickets in 29 test matches and scored 1 century and 6 half centuries. He was even dropped from the t20 world cup 2009 side even though he was the Man of the match of the 2007 world cup final. He is the only fast bowling all rounder India has who atleast deserves a second chance. What about that?
Pragyan Ojha got replaced by R Ashwin for no reason at all even though he was performing well in ODIs and also in the domestic arena.
Abhishek Nayar got selected when he was performing well in the domestic arena and was dropped after playing just 1 match, what impact would all this have on the mind of Abhishek Nayar? why did something like this not happen to someone like Vijay or Mukund? Just because they have the captain's backing?
Manish Pandey is not getting chances despite of his domestic performance in the last three years.
Yusuf scores two back to back centuries and a half century in the four matches right before the world cup and still gets dropped in between.
Dhoni and Shrikant, both from CSK,are just being biased,and doing things smartly to get their players in.
Shrikant's son, Anirudha Shrikant is even selected for the Emerging Player's tournament, now that comes as the biggest joke on what grounds was he selected for it?
In case of Gambhir's injury, Raina is the ODI captain, what about Kohli who has led the under 19 world cup winning team or Yuvraj??
please note that Yuvraj withdrew from the series because of injury after Raina was named the captain, he was anyways not going to be the captain.
I know you people will have no explanations for all this and you will again try to hide the main topic and get everyone's attention to something else without any factual or statistic proof...
The main issue is the politics played in the team and Dhoni's biased nature towards some players.
Now lets get right on the main topic. Does Shravi, Bevab or Zoraxdoom have answers to these questions.
Harbhajan has got 3 wickets or more in only 8 occassions out of his previous 80 ODIs but is still in the ODI side, any strong reason for that apart from his friendship with Dhoni?
Rahul Dravid dropped for after just 1 bad series,what reason can you give for this?
Irfan Pathan never got a second chance even though he picked 100 wickets in 29 test matches and scored 1 century and 6 half centuries. He was even dropped from the t20 world cup 2009 side even though he was the Man of the match of the 2007 world cup final. He is the only fast bowling all rounder India has who atleast deserves a second chance. What about that?
Pragyan Ojha got replaced by R Ashwin for no reason at all even though he was performing well in ODIs and also in the domestic arena.
Abhishek Nayar got selected when he was performing well in the domestic arena and was dropped after playing just 1 match, what impact would all this have on the mind of Abhishek Nayar? why did something like this not happen to someone like Vijay or Mukund? Just because they have the captain's backing?
Manish Pandey is not getting chances despite of his domestic performance in the last three years.
Yusuf scores two back to back centuries and a half century in the four matches right before the world cup and still gets dropped in between.
Dhoni and Shrikant, both from CSK,are just being biased,and doing things smartly to get their players in.
Shrikant's son, Anirudha Shrikant is even selected for the Emerging Player's tournament, now that comes as the biggest joke
on what grounds was he selected for it? In case of Gambhir's injury, Raina is the ODI captain, what about Kohli who has led the under 19 world cup winning team or Yuvraj??
please note that Yuvraj withdrew from the series because of injury after Raina was named the captain, he was anyways not going to be the captain.
I know you people will have no explanations for all this and you will again try to hide the main topic and get everyone's attention to something else without any factual or statistic proof...
shravi
National Board President
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2005
- Profile Flag
- India
You guys are trying to prove your things just by mere words without any facts or stats. And you are getting everyone's attention off from the main issue by taking it in another direction.
The main issue is the politics played in the team and Dhoni's biased nature towards some players.
Now lets get right on the main topic. Does Shravi, Bevab or Zoraxdoom have answers to these questions.
Harbhajan has got 3 wickets or more in only 8 occassions out of his previous 80 ODIs but is still in the ODI side, any strong reason for that apart from his friendship with Dhoni?
Rahul Dravid dropped for after just 1 bad series,what reason can you give for this?
Irfan Pathan never got a second chance even though he picked 100 wickets in 29 test matches and scored 1 century and 6 half centuries. He was even dropped from the t20 world cup 2009 side even though he was the Man of the match of the 2007 world cup final. He is the only fast bowling all rounder India has who atleast deserves a second chance. What about that?
Pragyan Ojha got replaced by R Ashwin for no reason at all even though he was performing well in ODIs and also in the domestic arena.
Abhishek Nayar got selected when he was performing well in the domestic arena and was dropped after playing just 1 match, what impact would all this have on the mind of Abhishek Nayar? why did something like this not happen to someone like Vijay or Mukund? Just because they have the captain's backing?
Manish Pandey is not getting chances despite of his domestic performance in the last three years.
Yusuf scores two back to back centuries and a half century in the four matches right before the world cup and still gets dropped in between.
Dhoni and Shrikant, both from CSK,are just being biased,and doing things smartly to get their players in.
Shrikant's son, Anirudha Shrikant is even selected for the Emerging Player's tournament, now that comes as the biggest joke
In case of Gambhir's injury, Raina is the ODI captain, what about Kohli who has led the under 19 world cup winning team or Yuvraj??
please note that Yuvraj withdrew from the series because of injury after Raina was named the captain, he was anyways not going to be the captain.
I know you people will have no explanations for all this and you will again try to hide the main topic and get everyone's attention to something else without any factual or statistic proof...
1) You don't drop established players until they have really hit rock bottom. I think that time has come but it wouldn't be wise to replace Harbhajan on an away tour. It would be wiser to give a second spinner a chance in India so that we at least know how he will go in test cricket before we thrust him into a series as important as this one in England.
2) I don't agree with Dravid being dropped but that is the fault of Vengsarkar. He never liked Dravid and is just another Sachin fanboy ("Don't talk about Sachin, he is a legend").
3) Pragyan Ojha is not a wicket taking spinner. He holds up one end and just bowls economically. Ashwin is an attacking spinner who looks to take a wicket on every ball.
4) Abhishek Nayar can only be selected as an all rounder. His batting is pretty average- his technique is nothing special. His military medium pace will not trouble international batsmen, especially when he is not a swing or seam bowler.
5) FOR THE LAST TIME, Manish Pandey cannot break into the middle order! The middle order is packed with Laxman, Dravid and Tendulkar! The other place will go to a batsman who already has International experience- Raina, Yuvraj or Kohli. Of course, your next question will be why does Mukund deserve a chance. The only other choice was Vijay and he has been a consistent failure. There is no other opener that can come in for Sehwag/Gambhir that has International experience unless you want Jaffer or Karthik who are proven failures at this level. Mukund is a run machine and has scored runs, not only in India against Indian bowlers, but against International bowlers in the Emerging Players Tournaments in testing conditions abroad. Manish Pandey is an opener in T20 cricket, but he is a middle order batsman for Karnataka in Ranji Trophy cricket. You don't select a makeshift opener unless it is in the middle of the tour and a replacement cannot be flown in.
6) Nobody is doubting or saying that he cannot be brilliant on his day. However, these days don't come often enough. His role is as an all rounder and he struggles to spin the ball. He just bowls darts which do not trouble International standard batsman. Raina is just as good with the ball and Yuvraj is better. It's not as if Dhoni, Raina and Yuvraj are defensive batsmen. In fact, they are amongst the most aggressive in the world. So the point about him scoring runs quickly is irrelevant since those three do it just a little bit slower but are more consistent, one of them is as good a bowler as Pathan (Raina), and one of them is a better bowler than him (Yuvraj) and ALL three are better batsmen than him. There is no place for him in this team.
You don't need stats to back you up all the time. Some players are just not good enough or not ready and you can see that with your eyes.
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Taylor aside, all his wickets were of pretty mediocre batsmen, yes.
He isn't...
He plays IPL under Warne, as I showed you, bowled at the death to poor batsmen under Gambhir.
Didn't you see his second innings against England? He's averaging 37.64 early in his career, had 3 fifties in the recent innings against WI.
You kinda are.
Mukund's domestic career >= Pandey
Mukund is an opener
Pandey isn't.
Pandey played IPL.
And you claim Pandey should have been picked as Test opener over Mukund.
What was the deciding factor for you?
IPL.
How do you not see the flaw in this logic?
LOL yes you do. He kept falling early and cheaply as he was trying too hard to attack. That was his downfall in Tests too. Have you seen him bat? Sounds like you're basing all your opinions off only Stats and IPL.
Speaking of IPL, Vijay dominated there. How would he have done that if he wasn't good enough and wasn't attacking?
You're argument is self contradictory. If you think IPL is as good as real cricket, then Vijay deserved all his chances as he was quite good there AND Vijay showed he was attacking regardless of ODI stats.
If IPL isn't good enough, then Vijay comes off as defensive and getting an unfair run in the side.
You can't argue both ways.
Uthappa is a make shift opener, he started in the middle order and IIRC bats there in FC cricket. Only really opens in T20s and sometimes in the IPL.
13 of Uthappa's 34 ODI innings have come opening. He has opened more than he has batted in any other position.
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
You've not done any research have you?
Murali Kartik was out of favour long ago. Mishra got selected to replace Kumble, not alongside Kumble. Ojha and Mishra were the two best spinners at domestic level, who was better? You are completely mistaken thinking they were picked on the basis of the IPL, why won't you just admit it?
Because he's 22 years old. Balaji had prior international experience. That's why.
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The selectors love him and are stupid. Dhoni doesn't pick the playing XI, I don't know what gives you that idea.
If anything, Dhoni has been giving Ashwin more opportunities, which is great because he is our best young spin bowling prospect.
Pathan's had numerous chances, atleast 3 IIRC. Here are some stats btw:
All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
For the seasons 2005/2006 to 2008, he averaged 42, 46, and 47 with the ball. Sure he was batting well, but his bowling was getting progressively ineffective.
For ODIs, stats as follows:
All-round records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
His bowling average for 2005/2006 till 2009 has been in the 40s consistently.
He was also injured for a year around 2010 till the IPL. And he wasn't going to get picked straight off the bat after the IPL.
It's common sense really. Irfan wasn't performing. So he wasn't getting picked. You don't pick an allrounder for the sake of having an allrounder, and you don't pick a player based on how he performed years ago especially when his latest performances are crap.
Ashwin was given an opportunity as a reward for dominating domestically. Ojha seemed one-dimensional, and is quite one dimensional. Ashwin's better.
Although I do feel Ojha could have been used better in Tests, always had the feeling that he was told to hold up one end and could bowl better if he was given license too attack. But then again, Ashwin seems far away from the Test side too, Bhajji/Mishra are first choices.
He played the World Cup. He wasn't doing what the team needed. His bowling wasn't effective and he wasn't getting enough time in the middle to be dangeros, and the few opportunities he did get he didn't use. So they played Raina instead. Boost to the fielding, better bowling option, and capable of building after a collapse. It worked. Again, fairly simple logic.
Kohli is too young FFS. Raina has been in the team longer. Personally I would have liked to see Kohli, but it was expected that a rookie like him wouldn't get the job yet. Both Raina and Kohli are the future and Kohli has already been spoken of as a future captain, his time will come.
Why are you so blind to the truth and choosing to believe such conspiracy theories? You have no real backing behind your arguments.
shravi
National Board President
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2005
- Profile Flag
- India
Because it's easy. If x player does well, then "he would never have even been selected if he wasn't a CSK player". If x player does badly, then "he shouldn't have ever been selected; he was only selected because he plays for CSK".
I know you wish you were selector Karan, but #1 in the test rankings and world cup winners is not bad, not bad at all. Their decisions have been vindicated.
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Cricketman
ICC Chairman
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2005
- Location
- USA
There is a lot of KKD love here. I like, I like. 
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like he will be back in Indian colors any time soon. Completely out of the picture...
poor guy. So talented, and such a good batsman when on song. He opened in our last tour in England and did an awesome job. Really took it to the attack, Sidebottom especially. Sigh...
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like he will be back in Indian colors any time soon. Completely out of the picture...
poor guy. So talented, and such a good batsman when on song. He opened in our last tour in England and did an awesome job. Really took it to the attack, Sidebottom especially. Sigh...
