SA or India : The Real Challengers To Australia`s Throne.

[srikarr12]

tbh honest Laxman is easily better then Prince as Laxman has put up better scores then Prince in recent times and also has reputation by othe countries. But I would put Amla as even as possible with Laxman because they literally have same technique and game style aswell as the cool head when batting.

 

[aditya123]

1.) I am struggling to see how Laxman is better than Prince??? Prince is one of the best batsmen South Africa has.

2.)Also Boucher is a far superior gloveman to Dhoni. Boucher is up there wth Gilly for keeping.

1.)Laxman is one of the leading run scorers this year.He is someone who does well under pressure,is a class act and I do not see a bias in me going for Laxman over Prince.Would you call someone who goes for Prince over Laxman biased?I doubt it.
Fore more on this one, I`d say ask the Aussies.

2.) I never mentioned glovework in the Boucher v Dhoni debate.I mentioned that under the Batting analysis part.Dhoni in the past year has been more effective as a batsman than Boucher.So on current form,I would go with Dhoni.As regards to glovework, Dhoni may not be spectacular but he has come a long way over the past year and is a safe keeper.He does not cost us games with his keeping.So it would not influence me in going for Dhoni over Boucher.I would like to also add that Dhoni is exceptional keeper to spin bowling and some of his stumpings are stunningl quick.

 

[simran3]

India will dominate World Cricket :hpraise. South Africa is a good side but its a passing phase i see them somewhere in between Pak and England in a little time.

Amla is way overrated, Kallis is going to be calling it a day in a while. AB is a good but not a Great player. Prince is overated, Grame Smith is Zaheer Khans bunny.

Yeah lets see now playing against Bangladesh ahahah steyn is a ordinary fast bowler infact i think he thinks that , the entire world bats like the bangla boys .

Yeah the morkel brothers lot to prove . South Africa has only 1 good player and that is Nitini :cool:


So yeah India will right on top...(loads his gun, ready for backlash):boxing

 

[ZoraxDoom]

Karthik is a better keeper than Dhoni when he is inform and confident.

Dhoni dropped a few against England, but they were half chances against spinners. Hard to say if Boucher would have held them, but Boucher is better to pace bowlers. They both are similar batsmen, but play different roles.

Prince is one of the best batsmen in RSA currently. Laxman is one of the best batsmen in India in all time. There can be no contest, Laxman wins.

And Harbhajan/Mishra > Harris for me, while Zak/Ishant/Sree/Munaf/RP/Irfan = Ntini/Kallis/Steyn/Zondeki/Nel/Langveldt/Morkel, with the slight edge to RSA.

 

[surendar]

I am struggling to see how Laxman is better than Prince???

Ask some of the Aussie players.. They will tell you how Laxman is better As far as I remember watching Laxman playing cricket, i.e right from Sidhu's period, he(VVS) has magnificent record against Aussies whether its in Aus or in Indian conditions.

@Aditya :- To be frank, I am not that impressed by Zaheer mate.. I don't know myself why.. I am not against Indian bowling attack. its just I don't trust our bowling attack to be our dependable one. Sharma has had the right start and I believe he is taken in right way in future too..

In other words, we lack, Ambrose-Walsh or McGrath-Lee or Pollock-Ntini or Wasim-Waquar or Vaas or Bond or Kallis type of quality bowlers. When you hear these names the next word i remember is 'Quality/classy' pace attack.. But when I hear Indian bowler names, except Ishant I can see none of them looking aggressive to the opponents. Especially when our legendary RP Singh comes to bowl, it will be like 'Come come I like to smash you everywhere' to opponents rather than creating fears in batsmen when Lee,Pollock,McGrath,Ambrose or Walsh bowls.

In whatever classic way, you put up the article Aditya, one can never deny that we do have a hole in our bowling attack. Its not wrong in your opinions of article but it is the fault in Indian cricket side which remains unresolved. Hopefully many Ishants come to make our atleast 2015 world cup, a competitive one.

 

[Adarsh]

I think it was a good, and fair analysis. Dhoni has been a very good keeper, very rarely dropping any chances and has been very reliable. If you have a look around the other teams, like England where they constantly bicker about the 'keeper, it shows you the reliability of Dhoni in the team. He's also been contributing well with the bat. I'd say he's on par with Boucher, tbh.

Laxman > Prince. I don't really want to argue this too much. Zaheer Khan, it must be said, has been bowling brilliantly. Even the experts say that; and Ishant has been on form too. That said, the SA quickies are great too.

 

[aditya123]

India will dominate World Cricket :hpraise. South Africa is a good side but its a passing phase i see them somewhere in between Pak and England in a little time.

Amla is way overrated, Kallis is going to be calling it a day in a while. AB is a good but not a Great player. Prince is overated, Grame Smith is Zaheer Khans bunny.

Yeah lets see now playing against Bangladesh ahahah steyn is a ordinary fast bowler infact i think he thinks that , the entire world bats like the bangla boys .

Yeah the morkel brothers lot to prove . South Africa has only 1 good player and that is Nitini :cool:


So yeah India will right on top...(loads his gun, ready for backlash):boxing

Here is an example of bias for all those who don`t know !

 

[sohum]

Suren, I disagree on your analysis of Zaheer Khan and MS Dhoni.

First, Dhoni. 2 years back, I would have agreed any day that Karthik is a better keeper than Dhoni. But the man's improved by leaps and bounds and is today probably the second best Test keeper on keeping alone (with Boucher winning that battle). People say Boucher's keeping to spinners is irrelevant... then why is Dhoni's keeping to pace bowling relevant? From my memory, he hasn't dropped a ludicrous number of catches and definitely nothing straightforward.

Second, Zaheer Khan. He got one of the 5 Wisden Cricketer of the Year awards in 2008, which is awarded for good performances in England. That is not a relevant yardstick for the world at large, I suppose, but if you have been watching him, he's been pretty lethal with the old ball. One can say that he's just in good form, but at the same time you have to appreciate his efforts playing on mostly flat and dry pitches.

 

[Dare]

Well if you bothered to take the time reading, you'll see there is absolutely no bias. He has labelled both teams as equals, and frankly, I agree with him. Pace bowling and Batting wise, India and RSA are equals. RSA has the edge on fielding, India on Spin Bowling, and both have good captains. Just because an India wrote something doesn't make it biased garbage.

Pace bowling belongs to SAF, spin bowling to India but Pace to South Africa.

Morkel, Ntini, Steyn are better than what India has to offer.
Laxman is not better than Prince on current form.

 

[surendar]

Sohum, If you have had read my analysis correctly on Dhoni, I would have meant --> Dhoni lack that dynamics inside him like other keepers.. But he is an ordinary keeper doing his basics right! Even I would have said, there is nothing wrong in Dhoni.. but he is ordinary as a keeper nothing special in him. But in captaincy, I would rate him as the best Indian Captain I have ever watched.. that means I rate him higher than Ganguly too.

Also Sohum, Can you spot me out where I did an analysis on Zaheer? I told, I myself don't know why i am not impressed by Zaheer. May be because of.. after watching many non-impressive in our Indian side, even the impressive ones look as non impressive ones to me.. may be! But this Ishant has a uniqueness in delivering the ball to opponent.. And, even with Zaheer.. he is not that same lethal one which Steve Waugh mentioned years ago..

I have been watching cricket since 1996.. Ok, Sohum or Aditya.. Can you spot me out one Indian quickie who has been consistent and impressive/aggressive to opponents after Javagal Srinath? Leave Zaheer and leave Ishant.. Can you spot me out? I will also be quite eager to know

 

[ZoraxDoom]

Pace is close. Zaheer, Ishant, Munaf, RP, Sreesanth, Irfan, even Praveen Kumar. It's a bit raw, but almost as good as Morkel, Ntini and Steyn. RSA don't have too much in reserve either, Kallis is good, but if they had to field a fourth seamer it would be one of Nel/Langveldt/Zondeki...so it's close. If India play 2 seamers, it's equal, but if they play a third, the third one will need to really click. Same if we play four. On their day, then both sides equal, otherwise RSA have the edge.

But either way, India's edge in spin should cancell out RSA's edge in fielding and pace bowling.

Just for the record, Laxman got 1071 runs at 48.68 in 2008. HS of 200*, 2 tons and 7 fifties. 15 matches. Played Australia, South Africa, England and Sri Lanka.
Prince got 900 runs in 2008, average of 64.28. HS of 162*, 4 tons, 2 fifties, 13 matches. Played Windies, Bangladesh, India and England.

Laxman has more runs, and played harder opponents. Prince has a higher average, more tons (in fewer matches too) and played somewhat easier opponents.

So make of that what you wish. Prince does seem in better form though. We know Laxman plays pace very well, but I'm not sure how Prince plays spin. It could just boil down to that.

 

[sohum]

Sohum, If you have had read my analysis correctly on Dhoni, I would have meant --> Dhoni lack that dynamics inside him like other keepers.. But he is an ordinary keeper doing his basics right! Even I would have said, there is nothing wrong in Dhoni.. but he is ordinary as a keeper nothing special in him. But in captaincy, I would rate him as the best Indian Captain I have ever watched.. that means I rate him higher than Ganguly too.

I read your thoughts on dynamics and diving catches. For me, I cannot really judge Dhoni on that because I haven't seen him spilling catches like that. Maybe he just doesn't get those opportunities? In which case counting it against him is a little unfair. Also, it is widely believed that the really good keepers don't fall over when taking catches. Good keepers move their legs to get to the ball and actually diving is a result of being a little late on the ball. Just something to chew on.

I have been watching cricket since 1996.. Ok, Sohum or Aditya.. Can you spot me out one Indian quickie who has been consistent and impressive/aggressive to opponents after Javagal Srinath? Leave Zaheer and leave Ishant.. Can you spot me out? I will also be quite eager to know

Nope. But I don't see how that has anything to do with how Zaheer performs, unless you think that the system will chew him up like it has done with our other pacers. And it's interesting you bring this up, because Zaheer is probably the only pacer in our team that has been consistently in the team throughout the span between his debut and now.

 

[aditya123]

Pace is close. Zaheer, Ishant, Munaf, RP, Sreesanth, Irfan, even Praveen Kumar. It's a bit raw, but almost as good as Morkel, Ntini and Steyn. RSA don't have too much in reserve either, Kallis is good, but if they had to field a fourth seamer it would be one of Nel/Langveldt/Zondeki...so it's close. If India play 2 seamers, it's equal, but if they play a third, the third one will need to really click. Same if we play four. On their day, then both sides equal, otherwise RSA have the edge.

But either way, India's edge in spin should cancell out RSA's edge in fielding and pace bowling.

Just for the record, Laxman got 1071 runs at 48.68 in 2008. HS of 200*, 2 tons and 7 fifties. 15 matches. Played Australia, South Africa, England and Sri Lanka.
Prince got 900 runs in 2008, average of 64.28. HS of 162*, 4 tons, 2 fifties, 13 matches. Played Windies, Bangladesh, India and England.

Laxman has more runs, and played harder opponents. Prince has a higher average, more tons (in fewer matches too) and played somewhat easier opponents.

So make of that what you wish. Prince does seem in better form though. We know Laxman plays pace very well, but I'm not sure how Prince plays spin. It could just boil down to that.

Finally someone agrees to what I said.India`s fast bowling may look a bit raw but we have more backup fast bowlers than SA and most of them have proven that they can be a handful on helpful tracks.Each time we have got helpful tracks abroad, our fast bowlers have won games for us.
And Yes Sure, that includes RP Singh,Munaf and Sreesanth.Remember Jamaica 2006,Perth 08,Galle 08,Jo`burg 06,Nottingham 07 ?

I still don`t know the reason why some people see the analysis as biased.I pride myself on making unbiased observations !

But the thread has served its purpose.I wanted some healthy debate at a time when test cricket seems to be on its revival path and at a time where there seems to be a shift in he power centre of test cricket away from Australia.

aditya123 added 6 Minutes and 39 Seconds later...

I read your thoughts on dynamics and diving catches. For me, I cannot really judge Dhoni on that because I haven't seen him spilling catches like that. Maybe he just doesn't get those opportunities? In which case counting it against him is a little unfair. Also, it is widely believed that the really good keepers don't fall over when taking catches. Good keepers move their legs to get to the ball and actually diving is a result of being a little late on the ball. Just something to chew on.

There is a saying which goes `As long as umpires and keepers are not in the news, it means they are doing a good job.`
Dhoni may not be a brilliant and an athletic keeper but he rarely misses chances and is excellent against spin which is more relevant to him because he plays a lot of cricket in India.That is why I did not bring in their keeping skills into the analysis.Both keepers have been in their respective sides for sometime which would suggest that they have`nt done a lot wrong with their keeping.
And Dhoni on current batting form would be the better batsman of the two.

+ I don` think Dhoni is a keeper so bad as to influence India`s challege to the Aussie throne.A keeper rarely does influence it.However a bad keeped could make things worse but Dhoni clearly is not a bad keeper.

aditya123 added 7 Minutes and 52 Seconds later...

In other words, we lack, Ambrose-Walsh or McGrath-Lee or Pollock-Ntini or Wasim-Waquar or Vaas or Bond or Kallis type of quality bowlers. When you hear these names the next word i remember is 'Quality/classy' pace attack.. But when I hear Indian bowler names, except Ishant I can see none of them looking aggressive to the opponents. Especially when our legendary RP Singh comes to bowl, it will be like 'Come come I like to smash you everywhere' to opponents rather than creating fears in batsmen when Lee,Pollock,McGrath,Ambrose or Walsh bowls.

But bowlers like McGrath,Ambrose,Walsh,Akram,Waqar are not born everyday.If you look at the current scenario in world cricket,there are very few really good fast bowlers and believe me India have quite a few of them.
Our pacers are bowling better than the Aussie pacers,including Lee at the moment.

Do not forget that our pacers have outbowled their far more celebrated Aussie and English counterparts consistently on dead wickets in India in the past couple of months.That does take a lot of skill.

aditya123 added 2 Minutes and 56 Seconds later...

Griffo, do respond to my post as to why the analysis is biased tomorrow.

aditya123 added 0 Minutes and 47 Seconds later...

So much bias in this its not funny... not even worth my time reading

Please explain what makes you feel so?

 

[.Mob]

I doubt it. Atleast not as long as we are carrying older players like Sachin, Laxman, Dravid etc. Ishant isn't the most athletic, Mishra is okay, Viru is a great catcher but that's it...We lack that athleticism in the outfield.

But we aren't that much weaker, so it shouldn't make a huge difference considering our edge in spin bowling.

I meant in about half a decade or so, and guys like Raina and Rahane etc etc get into the team, our fielding would improve a considerable amount.

 

[sohum]

Do not forget that our pacers have outbowled their far more celebrated Aussie and English counterparts consistently on dead wickets in India in the past couple of months.That does take a lot of skill.

Don't discount the fact that they have learned their trade on these pitches, so they should have an edge. I think what this shows, more than anything, is that our pacers are on somewhat of an even keel with other pace bowlers around the world, not necessarily better.