Tendulkar v Inzamam TEST CRICKET ONLY

Sachin Tendulkar vs Inzamam Ul Haq


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Keep posting guys we will make him accept in his own post that Sachin is better.If zMario proves that Inzy is better in a poll where Indians and Pakistanis are not allowed to vote, I will give away all of my vcash to him. This is a bet.

That would be useless. If you are intent upon it, subtract the votes of Indian and Pakistani members from the poll above. The result is obvious.

You are not going to get these people to accept that India is better in something. It's simply not going to happen. Take comfort from the fact that all their arguments have been answered for. If anybody disagrees with that assessment, please list the arguments that you feel have not been accounted for and I (along with any other wiling volunteers) will do so.
 
I will disagree with that. Inzamam scores 35 in matches where Pakistan loses/draws. Sachin scores 51 in matches where India loses/draws. Those are a fairer indication of how a batsman under pressure, when he doesn't have the support of his team mates, when he is facing a daunting task alone. If you want to point out arbitrary matches where Inzamam has succeeded/Sachin has failed, we can continue to play the game where I respond with arbitrary matches were Inzamam has failed/Sachin has succeeded. But, that would be pretty meaningless.
I will disagree with your point of how that shows pressure.

It just shows Sachin is scoring in matches where India have already lost.

I know you're not one for arbitrary matches, but I will mention just this one.

5th Test: WI v India - game is hopelessly lost, it would take a miracle, Sachin scores 86

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/match/63988.html

Now don't attack me just yet - I'm not saying Sachin should have got out. Lets say that the target for India was around 200, 210.

Sachin would not have got past 40, and would have got out because he would be expected to help India get to that total to win the game because it was in their grasp.

This is why Sachin can "choke"

zMario added 0 Minutes and 52 Seconds later...

Read post #447. I meant a neutral poll conducted in PC.net.
You think the poll above is neutral?

I am giving you proof from ANALYSTS. People who are PAID to ANALYZE the players.

They have determined Sachin Tendulkar cannot touch Steve Waugh or Inzamam-ul-Haq
 
Well i agree Tendulkar has choked when needed but has Inzaman done anything great that Tendulkar has not done . If you see the records no of centuries , runs all will show that Tendulkar is superior . Even his averages against Australia , South Africa , West Indies are superior so I think overall Sachin is the best and will be the best .

Well we are just talking of records . See the the type of shots Sachin plays . He reminds SIR Don Bradman of himself and Inzi doesnt have half of the shots that Sachin have . Sachin is a great entertainer in all forms . His(Sachin) straight drive is the best i have ever seen .
 
Now you have started speaking payments?. Seesh. Can you post a link to these so called Paid Analysts that you mention. A poll where the people from our respective countries dont vote is simple, but you dont want it to happen 'coz you know you will lose.
 
Now you have started speaking payments?. Seesh. Can you post a link to these so called Paid Analysts that you mention. A poll where the people from our respective countries dont vote is simple, but you dont want it to happen 'coz you know you will lose.
Uh, what is wrong with your head?

Ramiz Raja, Sanjay Manjrekar, Geoffrey Boycott, Imran Khan, Chris Cairns

Do you not think they are paid for appearing on TV?

Not to mention the MANY employees that work for Wisden?

Hmm.
 
It just shows Sachin is scoring in matches where India have already lost.

Sachin has come predominantly come in as an opener and as the third or fourth batsman through the course of his nineteen year career. Matches are usually determined by batsmen in those position. It comes down to him to build the basis of any fight that India can put up to win a match and his average of 51 in matches India loses/draws means that he has performed consistently well under pressure. He does his job in building the basis of India's scores. He cannot be faulted for the lack of contributions from the other ten players. Inzamam, on the other hand, averages 35. He has consistently showed himself unable to get 'set' (to use your word), when his team most needs to get set, in order to put up a fight.

I know you're not one for arbitrary matches, but I will mention just this one.


Sachin would not have got past 40, and would have got out because he would be expected to help India get to that total to win the game because it was in their grasp.

Someone I know once told me that an argument is won when the opponent has to resort to conjuring up dreamy, hypothetical scenarios in order to make a point (especially when it is not present).

But, I have always showed myself to be willing to play your silly games.

Here is my arbitrary match in response: http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/match/63671.html

The game is hopelessly lost, it would take a miracle, Inzamam scores 95.

Now don't attack me just yet - I'm not saying Inzamam should have got out. Let's say that the target for Pakistan was around 200, 210.

Inzamam would not have got past 35, and would have got out because he would be expected to help Pakistan get to that total to win the game because it was in their grasp.

This is why Inzamam can "choke".

Two can play that game.
 
Sachin has come predominantly come in as an opener and as the third or fourth batsman through the course of his nineteen year career. Matches are usually determined by batsmen in those position. It comes down to him to build the basis of any fight that India can put up to win a match and his average of 51 in matches India loses/draws means that he has performed consistently well under pressure. He does his job in building the basis of India's scores. He cannot be faulted for the lack of contributions from the other ten players. Inzamam, on the other hand, averages 35. He has consistently showed himself unable to get 'set' (to use your word), when his team most needs to get set, in order to put up a fight.

Does it matter what Sachin scores if it ends up in a losing cause? Only thing that helps Sachin is for his team selection. Once again, innings and runs that come in a match where the team wins are more valuable than runs that come in a losing cause.

You would agree with that correct - runs in a match where the team wins are better for the team than runs that come in a match where the team loses?



Someone I know once told me that an argument is won when the opponent has to resort to conjuring up dreamy, hypothetical scenarios in order to make a point (especially when it is not present).

But, I have always showed myself to be willing to play your silly games.

Here is my arbitrary match in response: http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/match/63671.html

The game is hopelessly lost, it would take a miracle, Inzamam scores 95.

Now don't attack me just yet - I'm not saying Inzamam should have got out. Let's say that the target for Pakistan was around 200, 210.

Inzamam would not have got past 35, and would have got out because he would be expected to help Pakistan get to that total to win the game because it was in their grasp.

This is why Inzamam can "choke".

Two can play that game.

Actually, Inzamam would have taken to Pakistan to victory, as he has done on many occasions. He's the second best player when it comes to pressure as determined by that programme on Ten Sports.

But lets end that there, you are right - there is no point in that.

Lets continue this conversation with what I've said in bold, along with the fact Sachin Tendulkar is yet to get a man of the match in a winning cause since 1998.

*Matches with Bangladesh and Zimbabwe do not apply.
 
Lets continue this conversation with what I've said in bold

I see you've decided to abandon all your other 'points'. It's a step in the right direction.

along with the fact Sachin Tendulkar is yet to get a man of the match in a winning cause since 1998.

To the readers of this thread, I want to point something out.

zMario first began this line of argument with this statement (which he, apparently, pulled out of his ass): "Sachin Tendulkar has only received TWO man of the match awards in Test Cricket in his entire career. And both came in India."

Sachin Tendulkar has received ELEVEN man of the match awards in tests, in comparison to Inzamam's nine.

Four of those MOM awards, since 1998, have come in drawn matches, which, in fact, defeats your point about Tendulkar not performing under pressure.

Take this match, for example: http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/match/64006.html

India falls behind by 139 runs. In the second innings, India collapses to 87/4 and Sachin Tendulkar rescues the team with a magnificent 176 to take India to safety. Talk about performing under pressure.

The occasions on which he received are MOMs in lost causes are another example of Sachin performing under pressure, with his team collapsing around him and his bowlers failing to fire.

Does it matter what Sachin scores if it ends up in a losing cause? Only thing that helps Sachin is for his team selection. Once again, innings and runs that come in a match where the team wins are more valuable than runs that come in a losing cause.

You would agree with that correct - runs in a match where the team wins are better for the team than runs that come in a match where the team loses?

Yes, it does matter that Sachin scores when India faces a daunting total. It means that he thrives under pressure, while the other ten players fail to do their duties. Inzamam, on the other hand, cracks under pressure. When his team needs him to stave off a defeat or take them to a draw, he only averages 35, in comparison to Sachin's 51. You are consistently making the mistake of faulting Sachin for succeeding while the other ten players around him fail. Cricket is played by teams of eleven. It's ludicrous to fault a player for averaging 51 in difficult conditions when the other ten players crack. It's also ludicrous use that as an excuse for someone like Inzamam whose average of 35 in those situations shows him to consistently crack under those same conditions.
 
I see you've decided to abandon all your other 'points'. It's a step in the right direction.



To the readers of this thread, I want to point something out.

zMario first began this line of argument with this statement (which he, apparently, pulled out of his ass): "Sachin Tendulkar has only received TWO man of the match awards in Test Cricket in his entire career. And both came in India."

WRONG. Sachin Tendulkar has received ONLY 2 man of the match awards in his entire career IN INDIA WINS. I have mentioned this many times (the India wins), but somehow people keep missing that. And he has not receieved a man of the match award in an Indian win since 1998

This does not include Bangladesh OR Zimbabwe.


Sachin Tendulkar has received ELEVEN man of the match awards in tests, in comparison to Inzamam's nine.

Four of those MOM awards, since 1998, have come in drawn matches, which, in fact, defeats your point about Tendulkar not performing under pressure.

So he's only receieved 5 MoM awards in test wins?
Take this match, for example: http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/match/64006.html

India falls behind by 139 runs. In the second innings, India collapses to 87/4 and Sachin Tendulkar rescues the team with a magnificent 176 to take India to safety. Talk about performing under pressure.
One incident, shaabash
The occasions on which he received are MOMs in lost causes are another example of Sachin performing under pressure, with his team collapsing around him and his bowlers failing to fire.
Well, Sachin knows he has nothing to lose. Why is it that Sachin cannot perform to help the team win as much as Inzamam can? Answer that ;)


Yes, it does matter that Sachin scores when India faces a daunting total. It means that he thrives under pressure, while the other ten players fail to do their duties. Inzamam, on the other hand, cracks under pressure. When his team needs him to stave off a defeat or take them to a draw, he only averages 35, in comparison to Sachin's 51. You are consistently making the mistake of faulting Sachin for succeeding while the other ten players around him fail. Cricket is played by teams of eleven. It's ludicrous to fault a player for averaging 51 in difficult conditions when his team fails. It's also ludicrous use that as an excuse for someone like Inzamam whose average of 35 in those situations shows him to consistently crack under those same conditions.


What are you on about? Pal, tell me why Tendulkar's name was not mentioned in the Ten Sports programme. It was mentioned, but he was not named with Steve Waugh and Inzamam-ul-Haq.

Sachin Tendulkar scores runs in losing situations, yes, well done. But why can't he score to help his team win as much as Inzamam?

Readers, if Sachin is so great, why can't he score in WINNING matches as much as Inzamam?

Whats the point of staving off a defeat? Thats pretty pointless. Yes, I'd like to minimize damage, but thats not something to be proud of, if the batsman can stave off a defeat, but can't score runs to help the team win.

Those are just NEGATIVE tactics.
 
why can't he score in WINNING matches as much as Inzamam?

This seems to be the gist of your entire argument.

First, if you look for a batsmen performing under pressure, then lost/drawn matches are a better indication of situations where a batsmen is under pressure to perform, with the rest of the team (the bowlers, the other batsmen) failing and with the batsman facing the daunting task of single-handedly rescuing his team. In such situations, Sachin averages 51. Inzamam averages 35. Sachin has shown himself to play better under pressure in those conditions.

Second, your entire argument rests on the statistical fact that Tendulkar averages 62.11 in Indian wins, while Inzamam averages 78.16. What you repeatedly fail to see is that the Indian middle order, for most of the past two decades, has also contained Dravid, Laxman, and Ganguly. For the first decade of his career, Sachin has also had to contend with Azhar and for the second decade, Sehwag. Dravid has scored 10,246 runs, while Ganguly and Laxman have scored 6888 and 6000, respectively. For much of his career, he also had to compete with Azharuddin and Sehwag, who scored 6215 and 5024 runs. Now, take a look at the Pakistani side. Other than Yousuf, none of Inzamam's peers have scored more than 6000 runs. Sure, Inzamam had Anwar and Younis Khan, but they only scored 4052 and 4816 runs. Why is that important, you might ask. It is important because if you look at the statistics, you will see that Dravid averages 71.54 in those same Indian wins, Azaruddin averages 63.61, with Laxman, Sehwag, and Ganguly averaging 51, 50 and 46. This means that, for most of his career, in any chase for a win, Sachin competed with those five batsmen (Dravid, in particular, with his 71.54 average) to score the required number of runs. This, obviously, means that he couldn't score as much. I will, once again, say that Inzamam performed admirably to average around 78 in Pakistani wins. That emphasizes his importance to the Pakistani side's victories (which you have to remember included the likes of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis, whose bowling resulted in most of those victories). But, that isn't the only indication of a batsman performing under pressure. In matches where the entire team fails and it is almost up to one batsman to try to save his team and pull of a draw or stave off defeat, Sachin, again, averages 51 and Inzamam averages 35, which shows him consistently cracking under the pressure when the team needed him to save a match.

As an aside, this is pretty sad, but we've spent the last three hours arguing and essentially re-hashing over these same points. I have to leave for work soon, but I'm only working for four-five hours today, so if you can withstand the excitement and if you wish to continue re-hashing these points, I will be back around 12-1 AM forum time. Perhaps one of the other Indian members will assume my position here in the mean time.
 
This seems to be the gist of your entire argument.

First, if you look for a batsmen performing under pressure, then lost/drawn matches are a better indication of situations where a batsmen is under pressure to perform, with the rest of the team (the bowlers, the other batsmen) failing and with the batsman facing the daunting task of single-handedly rescuing his team. In such situations, Sachin averages 51. Inzamam averages 35. Sachin has shown himself to play better under pressure in those conditions.

Why are lost/drawn matches better? What if a batsman is under pressure to perform, and WINS the game for his team, as Inzamam has done on so many occasions. For example, 2003. Pakistan needed 100 or so runs with just 3 wickets in hand v Bangladesh. Inzamam was at one end, bowlers at the other. The wickets kept falling, till I think 40 runs required with the last wicket. Bangladesh could have won that test, but Inzamam somehow managed to win the game, and took the game by one wicket.

Now please don't post examples of Sachin doing this, because A)I don't think he has, and B) Thats not the point. The point is most GOOD pressue knocks lead to a win.


Second, your entire argument rests on the statistical fact that Tendulkar averages 62.11 in Indian wins, while Inzamam averages 78.16. What you repeatedly fail to see is that the Indian middle order, for most of the past two decades, has also contained Dravid, Laxman, and Ganguly. For the first decade of his career, Sachin has also had to contend with Azhar and for the second decade, Sehwag. Dravid has scored 10,246 runs, while Ganguly and Laxman have scored 6888 and 6000, respectively. For much of his career, he also had to compete with Azharuddin and Sehwag, who scored 6215 and 5024 runs. Now, take a look at the Pakistani side. Other than Yousuf, none of Inzamam's peers have scored more than 6000 runs. Sure, Inzamam had Anwar and Younis Khan, but they only scored 4052 and 4816 runs. Why is that important, you might ask. It is important because if you look at the statistics, you will see that Dravid averages 71.54 in those same Indian wins, Azaruddin averages 63.61, with Laxman, Sehwag, and Ganguly averaging 51, 50 and 46. This means that, for most of his career, in any chase for a win, Sachin competed with those five batsmen (Dravid, in particular, with his 71.54 average) to score the required number of runs. This, obviously, means that he couldn't score as much. I will, once again, say that Inzamam performed admirably to average around 78 in Pakistani wins. That emphasizes his importance to the Pakistani side's victories (which you have to remember included the likes of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis, whose bowling resulted in most of those victories). But, that isn't the only indication of a batsman performing under pressure. In matches where the entire team fails and it is almost up to one batsman to try to save his team and pull of a draw or stave off defeat, Sachin, again, averages 51 and Inzamam averages 35, which shows him consistently cracking under the pressure when the team needed him to save a match.

Guess what - Saeed Anwar averaged 66.29 in Pakistan wins, Younus Khan averaged 67.90, and Mohammad Yousuf averaged 59.47, and Ijaz Ahmed averaged 46.46. Add that up, and compare to the Indians you've mentioned, and the Pakistani averages are higher. While Tendulkar had to deal with one player (Rahul Dravid) Inzamam had to deal with 2 (Anwar and Younus)


Specific responses in bold

Theres a big misunderstanding between me and you.

Please read the game I just posted above in bold. Theres an example of a pressure-knock being recorded as a WIN.

Here's something for everyone to ponder.

When Sachin scores a 100, theres a 33% chance of India winning, and a 76.9 chance of a win or a draw.

When Inzamam scores a 100, theres a 68% chance of Pakistan winning, and a 92%chance of a win or a draw.

Now thats damning evidence, along with the fact you are yet to understand the man of the match statistic.

Once again, it is ONLY in games which the player's team has won, and it DOES NOT include Zimbabwe or Bangladesh.

Sachin Tendulkar has only 2 MoMs with the criteria above, both at home in India, and has not received a MoM since 1998 with the criteria above.

Inzamam-ul-Haq has 5 MoMs and 2 Man of the Series with the criteria above. He has 3 home MoMs and 2 away MoMs.

I hope you now understand that damning statistic as well :)
 
How about this. They are both as good as each other, and have made members of their respective countires proud with their achievments. They both have fantastic records and are a credit to cricket, with some tremendous knocks meaning that there is no way one is better than the other :)
 
While Sachin Tendulkar may have scored more runs in his career, Inzamam-ul-Haq's runs have been more valuable to his team because most of his runs help the team win, while most of Sachin's runs come in losses or draws
 
Ajantha Mendis did not get any MOM awards in the recently concluded 3 test series. Does that mean that he had a worse series than Murali, Sehwag or Sangakkara? On the contrary. A much better one. It isn't always a true indication. Sachin hasn't won MOM awards as many times as Inzamam becasue there were quality players such as Dravid, Ganguly and Laxman in the team at the same time. Plus, Inzamam's job was made easier with a much more potent bowling line-up than India's.

This is an opinion but it takes some doing to blow everyone away with that type of skill at the tender of 16.
 
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