The most SUCCESSFUL batsman of this decade (2000's) discussion.

[sohum]

If we are in the business of quoting single innings, let's have a look at these figures from Ponting's recent tour of India:

1st Test
Ponting came in at 0/1 and scored 123.
Ponting came in at 21/1 and scored 17.

2nd Test
Ponting came in at 0/1 after India put 469 on the board and scored 5.
Ponting came in at 49/1 chasing 516 and scored 2

3rd Test
Ponting came in at 123/1 after India put 613 on the board and scored 87.
Ponting did not bat.

4th Test
Ponting came in at 32/1 after India put 441 on the board and scored 24.
Ponting came in at 29/1 chasing 382 and scored 8.

This is just one series, but the analysis is as follows:

- When chasing/coming in after a high opposition total, he failed 4/6 times
- When coming in after a bad opening stand, he failed 5/6 times

Really, the next two years of Ponting's batting will demonstrate if he can indeed handle the pressure of coming in after a rickety opening stand or when his bowlers have failed. I expect him to be successful, but if he isn't then the argument will be shown to be valid.

 

[aussie_ben91]

Ricky Ponting's 100's under pressure.

England in England, 1997 - Came in at 4-50 - Scored 127
South Africa in Australia, 1997 - Came in at 4-77 - Scored 105
Pakistan in Australia, 1999 - Came in at 4-54 - Scored 197
India in Australia, 1999 - Came in at 4-52 - Scored 125
Pakistan in Sri Lanka, 2002 - Came in at 1-5 - Scored 141
Pakistan in Sri Lanka, 2002 - Came in at 1-4 - Scored 150
Zimbabwe in Australia, 2003 - Came in at 1-7 - Scored 169
India in Australia, 2003 - Came in at 1-22 - Scored 242
Pakistan in Australia, 2005 - Came in at 1-26 - Scored 207
England in England, 2005 - Came in at 1-25 - Scored 156
West Indies in Australia, 2005 - Came in at 1-9 - Scored 149
South Africa in Australia, 2005 - Came in at 1-2 - Scored 117
South Africa in Australia, 2005 - Came in at 1-22 - Scored 120
South Africa in South Africa, 2006 - Came in at 1-0 - Scored 103
England in Australia - Came in at 1-8 - Scored 142
West Indies in West Indies - Came in at 1-18 - Scored 158
India in India - Came in at 1-0 - Scored 123

 

[stereotype]

If we are in the business of quoting single innings, let's have a look at these figures from Ponting's recent tour of India:

1st Test
Ponting came in at 0/1 and scored 123.
Ponting came in at 21/1 and scored 17.

2nd Test
Ponting came in at 0/1 after India put 469 on the board and scored 5.
Ponting came in at 49/1 chasing 516 and scored 2

3rd Test
Ponting came in at 123/1 after India put 613 on the board and scored 87.
Ponting did not bat.

4th Test
Ponting came in at 32/1 after India put 441 on the board and scored 24.
Ponting came in at 29/1 chasing 382 and scored 8.

This is just one series, but the analysis is as follows:

- When chasing/coming in after a high opposition total, he failed 4/6 times
- When coming in after a bad opening stand, he failed 5/6 times

Really, the next two years of Ponting's batting will demonstrate if he can indeed handle the pressure of coming in after a rickety opening stand or when his bowlers have failed. I expect him to be successful, but if he isn't then the argument will be shown to be valid.

Pontings form hasnt been that great since the end of 2007, so using one series isnt really an example of his career since 2000 which is what we are talking about here.

And no batsman fires everytime his team is under pressure but alot of Pontings centuries were. 17 examples given by aussie_ben where he has scored centuries in situations of pressure.

And you also glossed over my Lara example of whether he would have stood out as much as a great batsman if he played for Australia and would his record be better. The fact Lara played for a side that weakened over time certainly would have highlighted his efforts

 

[Arunava]

Nice topic. Made me go through the Cricinfo Statsguru and came up with another Statsbase.

Batsmen Scoring against all teams except Zimbabwe and Bangladesh in the Last Decade

Batsmen Scoring against all teams except Zimbabwe and Bangladesh in the Current Decade

Tendulkar was clear winner in the last decade and Ponting in the current.
Many averages severely drop after removing Bangladesh and Zimbabwe

 

[ZoraxDoom]

Lara is third in the first list and fifth in the second. Not bad longevity...

 

[sohum]

And no batsman fires everytime his team is under pressure but alot of Pontings centuries were. 17 examples given by aussie_ben where he has scored centuries in situations of pressure.

Well, you can only really make a conclusion once you have an average. I'll go ahead and work on this tonight since I think it may throw up some interesting data.

And you also glossed over my Lara example of whether he would have stood out as much as a great batsman if he played for Australia and would his record be better. The fact Lara played for a side that weakened over time certainly would have highlighted his efforts

I cannot really respond to your example since it was entirely hypothetical. The argument that Ponting was under less pressure is bourne by two facts: (1) he had a world-class opening pair coming in before him and (2) he had a world-class bowling line-up keeping the opposition scores down. This is not to suggest that he always came in at 100/1 or the opposition were always bowled out for under 250. In fact, this is what I'll be looking through tonight.

sohum added 1 Minutes and 54 Seconds later...

Tendulkar was clear winner in the last decade and Ponting in the current.
Many averages severely drop after removing Bangladesh and Zimbabwe

I think the biggest thing to draw from that statbase is how inflated averages have become these days. Only 4 people averaged in the 50s in the previous decade whereas around 11 people do that in this decade. Three times as many people. Surely this can be used as an argument to suggest that batting has become easier, although one would have to look at the previous decades to complete that claim.

 

[sohum]

I have attached the raw data I collected in case anyone else wants to do some analysis. It took about 1.5-2 hours to pull together, so I'm going to leave analysis till tomorrow because I'm tired.

 

[Dare]

You could argue that there is more pressure to perform in a stronger lineup as the likelihood of getting dropped from the lineup when you are not performing is greater. It'd be also harder to take the iniative in a stronger lineup full of world-class batsman.

Lara may have not batted along side a bunch of world-class batsman but Chanderpaul, Sarwan and Gayle are far from minnow batsman. It wasn't as if Lara always dominated in a weaker side anyway. Infact, he really struggled to adjust in the late 1990's.

Playing in a weaker team can reek benefits such as concentrating more, better shot selection, etc, etc.

I'm sure that you are one of few who would argue a point like that.

Lara usually had only one recognized batsman batting behind him, it was either Shiv or Sarwan or sometimes both. But having Sarwan and Shiv coming in behind you is nothing compared to having S.Waugh, Martin, Gilchrist and whoever else played behind him. Not to mention that he had Langer and Hayden opening in front of him while Lara had Gayle who's career average is way below Langer's or Hayden's.

Lara most of the time had to bat with the tail because everyone around him failed. I don't know about you but I would think that put more pressure on him.

I would think that Lara coming in at 1/9 felt way more pressure than Ponting coming in at the same time.

 

[Cricketman]

Remember, stats don't tell the whole story. Tendulkar battled many injuries during the last 8 years - including the injured back, tennis elbow (he was out of the game for like two years!) etc. It's amazing how well he's bounced back after all of that.

 

[stereotype]

I'm sure that you are one of few who would argue a point like that.

Lara usually had only one recognized batsman batting behind him, it was either Shiv or Sarwan or sometimes both. But having Sarwan and Shiv coming in behind you is nothing compared to having S.Waugh, Martin, Gilchrist and whoever else played behind him. Not to mention that he had Langer and Hayden opening in front of him while Lara had Gayle who's career average is way below Langer's or Hayden's.

Lara most of the time had to bat with the tail because everyone around him failed. I don't know about you but I would think that put more pressure on him.

I would think that Lara coming in at 1/9 felt way more pressure than Ponting coming in at the same time.

But what im saying is pressure sometimes is an aid to a batsman rather than make it harder, some batsmen thrive in batting in pressure situations, because it brings the best out in them. Brian Lara is a great example and he is a great player, he often batted under intense pressure but found a way out and forged some great innings, some of the best of all time imo.

But it could be argued without those pressure situations those particular digs would never had occured. It may seem easier on the surface to score runs coming in behind a good opening pair, but some players without that pressure can as a result put less of a price on their wicket and lose out to poor concentration.

Ricky Ponting has numerous digs that were in pressure situations and he scored 100's. I think that Ponting is one of those players that performs better under pressure than without it.

 

[Cricketman]

Random stat to chew on:

10 batsman who have scored 100 or more runs then their entire team combined over 5 times:

BC Lara             	14
DG Bradman          	9
V Sehwag            	7
WR Hammond          	6
CG Greenidge        	6
GS Chappell         	6
IVA Richards        	6
KC Sangakkara       	6
L Hutton            	6
MP Vaughan          	6

There goes Ben's 'he played in the best team for 5 years' argument.

Cricketman added 1 Minutes and 59 Seconds later...

Ricky Ponting has numerous digs that were in pressure situations and he scored 100's. I think that Ponting is one of those players that performs better under pressure than without it.

Oh cmon, he's rarely under much pressure at all in comparison to Sachin and Lara. The best bowlers of the world are in his own side so he doesn't have to worry about facing them, he's had a fantastic opening pair come in before him for his entire career and an awesome middle order under him.

 

[aussie_ben91]

I love the discrimination on this forum and how Ponting, Hayden or any other Australian batsman can't be considered the best batsman of this generation because they played in the same team as Warne and McGrath.

If I judged who the best batsman was based purely on just watching them bat and statistics didn't exist then I'd say Hayden or Pietersen was the best batsman that I've ever seen. But of course when I put all logic together then Ponting, Lara and Tendulkar are the obvious best batsman of this generation.

There goes Ben's 'he played in the best team for 5 years' argument.

Well check out Lara's record's after the first 5 years of his career and what acchieved between 1995-200. As I originally said, he didn't initially adjust all that well and wasn't always dominating in a weaker side.

So much for my arguement going out the window, eh?

		Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	SR	100	50
1990-1995	31	52	2	3048	375	60.96	66.52	07	16
1995-2000	40	71	2	2768	213	40.11	56.53	07	14
2000-2006	61	111	2	6141	400*	56.33	59.69	20	18

 

[sohum]

Here are some findings (I'm ignoring Ponting at 5, 6 or 7):

Legend:
OP = Opening Partnership
OS = Opposition Score

First Innings for Australia
Overall
40 <= OP < 50: 568 runs @ 56.80 with 2 centuries
30 <= OP < 40: 836 runs @ 76.00 with 3 centuries
20 <= OP < 30: 654 runs @ 109.00 with 3 centuries
10 <= OP < 20: 340 runs @ 48.57 with 1 century
0 < OP < 10: 874 runs @ 97.11 with 6 centuries
OP = 0: 452 runs @ 64.57 with 2 centuries

1st Innings of Test Match
40 <= OP < 50: 501 runs @ 71.57 with 2 centuries
30 <= OP < 40: 239 runs @ 59.75 with 1 century
20 <= OP < 30: 252 runs @ 126.00 with 1 century
10 <= OP < 20: 251 runs @ 83.67 with 1 century
0 < OP < 10: 582 runs @ 116.40 with 4 centuries
OP = 0: 352 runs @ 88.00 with 2 centuries

2nd Innings of Test Match
40 <= OP < 50: 67 runs @ 22.33
30 <= OP < 40: 597 runs @ 85.29 with 2 centuries
20 <= OP < 30: 402 runs @ 100.50 with 2 centuries
10 <= OP < 20: 89 runs @ 22.25
0 < OP < 10: 292 runs @ 73.00 with 2 centuries
OP = 0: 100 runs @ 33.33 with 0 centuries

So what this break-down shows is that for the most part, Ponting does pretty well when his openers fail and in fact has some of his highest scores in that scenario. However, what it also shows is that when his team is batting second, and the opposition has actually put a score up on the board, he is much more circumspect. Let's look at a break-down based on opposition scores, when Australia bats second:

2nd Innings of Test Match
OS < 150: 72 runs @ 24.00
150 <= OS < 250: 341 runs @ 48.71 with 1 century
250 <= OS < 350: 684 runs @ 68.40 with 3 centuries
350 <= OS < 450: 287 runs @ 35.88 with 0 centuries
450 <= OS < 550: 297 runs @ 59.40 with 2 centuries
OS >= 550: 254 runs @ 84.67 with 1 century

These figures are pretty interesting... looks like Ponting actually does worse when his bowlers have performed well! He has only scored one century when the opposition has scored less 250 runs. Not what I expected, to be honest. There is also a frailty in the competitive score range of 350-450 being put up by the opposition, in which case Ponting has never scored a century.

For further analysis, let's look at a break-down of this by opening partnership:

2nd Innings of Test Match
OS < 150
OP = 0: NO DATA
0 < OP < 10: NO DATA
10 <= OP < 20: 11 runs @ 11.00
20 <= OP < 30: NO DATA
30 <= OP < 40: NO DATA
40 <= OP < 50: NO DATA
OP > 50: 61 runs @ 30.50

150 <= OS < 250
OP = 0: NO DATA
0 < OP < 10: 14 runs @ 14.00
10 <= OP < 20: NO DATA
20 <= OP < 30: 74 runs @ 74.00
30 <= OP < 40: 185 runs @ 92.50 with 1 century
40 <= OP < 50: 21 runs @ 10.50
OP > 50: 47 runs @ 47.00

250 <= OS < 350
OP = 0: 34 runs @ 34.00
0 < OP < 10: 105 runs @ 105.00 with 1 century
10 <= OP < 20: 27 runs @ 13.50
20 <= OP < 30: 207 runs @ 207.00 with 1 century
30 <= OP < 40: 124 runs @ 62.00 with 0 centuries
40 <= OP < 50: NO DATA
OP > 50: 187 runs @ 62.33 with 1 century

350 <= OS < 450
OP = 0: 61 runs @ 61.00
0 < OP < 10: NO DATA
10 <= OP < 20: 51 runs @ 51.00
20 <= OP < 30: NO DATA
30 <= OP < 40: 31 runs @ 15.50
40 <= OP < 50: 46 runs @ 46.00
OP > 50: 98 runs @ 32.67

450 <= OS < 550
OP = 0: 5 runs @ 5.00
0 < OP < 10: 31 runs @ 31.00
10 <= OP < 20: NO DATA
20 <= OP < 30: 121 runs @ 60.50 with 1 century
30 <= OP < 40: NO DATA
40 <= OP < 50: NO DATA
OP > 50: 140 runs @ 140.00 with 1 century

OS >= 550
OP = 0: NO DATA
0 < OP < 10: 142 runs @ 142.00 with 1 century
10 <= OP < 20: NO DATA
20 <= OP < 30: NO DATA
30 <= OP < 40: NO DATA
40 <= OP < 50: NO DATA
OP > 50: 112 runs @ 56.00

This data shows that Ponting tends to do best when the opposition has been bowled out between 250 and 350 runs, which is a good performance by his bowlers. It seems, however, that at least in the first innings for Australia, he is not really affected that much by his openers failing and has chalked up some good scores.

Second innings' analysis to follow.

sohum added 5 Minutes and 39 Seconds later...

I just decided to look at his opener's performance in the first innings for Australia, as well:

Overall: 4646 runs @ 61.13
1st Innings: 2574 runs @ 66.00
2nd Innings: 2072 runs @ 56.00

Ave. opposition score when Australia bat second: 342

 

[stereotype]

tbh those stats dont surprise me too much. If anything Pontings form is not dependant on the bowling performance of his side, it is a little bit more influenced by his batting partners but hardly enough to say he performs any better without pressure.

Also if his career in general is not influenced a great deal by the success of his openers then i dont see why the openers record is anything but trivial.

stereotype added 8 Minutes and 27 Seconds later...

Oh cmon, he's rarely under much pressure at all in comparison to Sachin and Lara. The best bowlers of the world are in his own side so he doesn't have to worry about facing them, he's had a fantastic opening pair come in before him for his entire career and an awesome middle order under him.

You miss my point entirely, I would like to know when i said Ponting is confronted with more pressure situations than Sachin or Lara. What i am saying is WHEN he is put under these conditions he still plays as well as he normally does and in some cases those situations bring the best out of him, which really makes any point about the side around him fruitless.

So he never faced Warne or McGrath? He has however face the likes of Ambrose, Walsh, Younis, Akram, Vaas, Pollock, Muralitharan, Kumble etc etc who are world class bowlers and they help construct his career.

 

[Insomniac]

Some Indian fans don't consider Kumble a world-class bowler

Apparently he's "average" at best.