West Indies (70's-80's) vs Australia (2000's)?

[manee]

its thes same speed displayed in the video so just use your brains
how come even if in 76 they were bowling at 160 km/hrin 79 then bowled
at 140,km/hr its simple the computer used in 79 is more accurate

Why would more accurate equal lower? Wouldn't the use of different methods(ie, from different points of delivery) in the two cases make more sense.

i am participating in a comp for first class cricket so i thought you may not be a first class cricketer

It depends, how old are you? I played county cricket at U11 and regional cricket up to age 14.

 

[Cricket_god]

I'm almost 100% certain that Manee has a far deeper knowledge regarding the make up of a bowling action, the strains it has on the body and what is needed to maintain a high level of performance. Manee knows that bowling fast isn't easy, and you'd know this if you had read his blog, or read his struggles in various sections of this forum, and cricket coaching forum "SimplyCricket". Playing a higher grade of cricket than Manee doesn't make you more intelligent, I'm sure that Manee has a far better idea of what it takes to be a truely fast bowler, as from reading your above post, you're pretty clueless.

its easy to say and write things than to pratice

 

[manee]

I do train to be a fast bowler and I work very hard with techniques which I have read and those which I have deduced myself.

 

[WestIndian]

KP you and manee have done their best to educate two know-it-all of cricket. It is offensive for me as a West Indian to read the post of these two: Ben and Cricket God, are you guys in the same room rubbing each other or something, I ask because I just can't understand how you can come up with the same pathetic bull ****, about our past greats, and I honestly don't care if I get banned from in here, but I will defend our champion cricketers, past and present, so that is something worth getting banned for, our damn pride. I give up on trying to give infromation, links, and all esle to read because KP and manee have gone to lenght to so do and you pair of jackasses just refuse to listen, read and then understand. What the hell do you know of the late Malcolm Denzil Marshall?? I have been for days trying to resist answering to your crap, but I have failed, because you keep running your mouth about our batsmen and bowlers, if you think he was not quick, he was not effective, why not go speak, to many of the past Ausssies and English batsmen that came up against him, since you said stats is not all.
Dread to be honest, its a good thing you are in your comfort and own little world that affords your such luxury to say **** with no concern, I can tell you this, there are many Caribbean countries where you would make such statements and someone would be tempted to knock you on your ass.

 

[Cricket_god]

Why would more accurate equal lower? Wouldn't the use of different methods(ie, from different points of delivery) in the two cases make more sense.



It depends, how old are you? I played county cricket at U11 and regional cricket up to age 14.

in 79 they used to read from the hand if you watch the video closely
and as there is no video evidence of 75 or 76 who knows what they took the reading on.

fact is skill is god gifted but physical and mental strength can be worked upon so todays sportspersons are better physically and mentally than their
past generations

also great to know more about you.i thought something else after reading your article on sreesanth and the views you ahd when ishant first came

 

[manee]

One thing which I have forgotten to note is that West Indies of the 1970s and 1980s were so dominant partially due to an abundance of sports scientists on their support staff. The same type of scientist that apparently makes this era superior to the last.

 

[Cricket_god]

KP you and manee have done their best to educate two know-it-all of cricket. It is offensive for me as a West Indian to read the post of these two: Ben and Cricket God, are you guys in the same room rubbing each other or something, I ask because I just can't understnd how you can come up with the same pathetic bull ****, about our past greats, and I honestly don't care if I get banned from in here, but I will defend our champion cricketers, past and present, so that is something worth getting banned for, our damn pride. I give up on trying to give infromation, links, and all esle to read because KP and manee have gone to lenght to so do and you pair of jackasses just refuse to listen, read and then understand. What the hell do you know of the late Malcolm Denzil Marshall?? I have been for days trying to resist answering to your crap, but I have failed, because you keep running your mouth about our batsmen and bowlers, if you think he was not quick, he was not effective, why not go speak, to many of the past Ausssies and English batsmen that came up against him, since you said stats is not all.
Dread to be honest, its a good thing you are in your comfort and own little world that affords your such luxury to say **** with no concern, I can tell you this, there are many Caribbean countries where you would make such statements and someone would be tempted to knock you on your ass.

its not to disgrace west indies cricket,its just discussion we had about
bowlers pace ,its not that only pace makes a bowler ,nobody denies
the great natural ability like height and skill the great west indies bowlers had.

i think the westindies batsman of the generation were better than todays
as they dominated on wickets which had something for bowlers.
but its plain fact that todays cricketers are better physically prepared


anyways its totally wrong to compare eras so sorry if i hurt you.

 

[manee]

in 79 they used to read from the hand if you watch the video closely
and as there is no video evidence of 75 or 76 who knows what they took the reading on.

Where are they going to take the reading from that would be quicker than the hand?! Moreover, just because there were cameras from the bowler's hand does not mean that the average speed was not calculated. There is a reason that the fuller deliveries were the 'quickest' in 1979.

also great to know more about you.i thought something else after reading your article on sreesanth and the views you ahd when ishant first came

I stick by my views of Sreesanth and until you argue with a quoted part of the article, I will continue to do so. I was wrong about Ishant Sharma initially, but even you must understand that Ishant improved to an unpredictable level between the Pakistan tour and the Australia tour. Not only did he manage to tear through the crease more quickly (possibly due to the quicker pitches on offer) but also improved his follow through which allowed him to take the ball away from the right handed batsman, something which he did not do prior to the Australia tour.

manee added 5 Minutes and 47 Seconds later...

its not to disgrace west indies cricket,its just discussion we had about
bowlers pace ,its not that only pace makes a bowler ,nobody denies
the great natural ability like height and skill the great west indies bowlers had.

You still have not disproved the pace of the West Indian bowlers. I have previously established that scientific advancements creates and have created sharp fast-medium bowlers but that express fast bowlers, going back to Tyson and Larwood to Lee and Akhtar are born and not made - as much as it pains me, to say so. The natural talent of express pace, consistently over 145kph (90mph), is born not made, as much as it pains me to say so. Brett Lee came on to the scene bowling at 148kph aged 19 and Akhtar timed at 145kph in 1999 World Cup. Both have remodelled their actions throughout their career to gain more pace, but it has not been scientists that have convinced them to do so, but rather a mixture of themselves and bowling coaches passing on the techniques in the past - the techniques which began to establish themselves as soon as overarm bowling was legalised and people saw what biomechanics separated the fast bowlers from those struggling to get the ball down the other end.

 

[Cricket_god]

Where are they going to take the reading from that would be quicker than the hand?! Moreover, just because there were cameras from the bowler's hand does not mean that the average speed was not calculated. There is a reason that the fuller deliveries were the 'quickest' in 1979.



I stick by my views of Sreesanth and until you argue with a quoted part of the article, I will continue to do so. I was wrong about Ishant Sharma initially, but even you must understand that Ishant improved to an unpredictable level between the Pakistan tour and the Australia tour. Not only did he manage to tear through the crease more quickly (possibly due to the quicker pitches on offer) but also improved his follow through which allowed him to take the ball away from the right handed batsman, something which he did not do prior to the Australia tour.

manee added 5 Minutes and 47 Seconds later...



You still have not disproved the pace of the West Indian bowlers. I have previously established that scientific advancements creates and have created sharp fast-medium bowlers but that express fast bowlers, going back to Tyson and Larwood to Lee and Akhtar are born and not made - as much as it pains me, to say so. The natural talent of express pace, consistently over 145kph (90mph), is born not made, as much as it pains me to say so. Brett Lee came on to the scene bowling at 148kph aged 19 and Akhtar timed at 145kph in 1999 World Cup. Both have remodelled their actions throughout their career to gain more pace, but it has not been scientists that have convinced them to do so, but rather a mixture of themselves and bowling coaches passing on the techniques in the past - the techniques which began to establish themselves as soon as overarm bowling was legalised and people saw what biomechanics separated the fast bowlers from those struggling to get the ball down the other end.

i seen the video of the 79 speed test fully and each ball was measured
from the hand and it was not average speed they calculated but thefastest
delivery.also todays speed gun also record full delivery as the fastest so 79 is close to mordern speed guns

also i want to point a fact that fast bowling muscles develop as you bowl
and build up you get more strength so as a 19 year old brett was toucking 148 km/hr so as with many bowlers they build up fully till 25-26 and get to their maximum speed.technique is important but shoulder strength is needed also and if you
watch some interview with brett lee you will find how much he worked on his fitness to get to 150+ km/hr bowler i think this answers your question.

when i first saw him he was raw but i knew the potential as he was atheletic
and has great lower body strength.so i always knew he would be a fast bowler,even waqar younis ,mohinder amarnath once commented on neo sports
during paksitan india series in india that
he was never going to be a fast bowler and was a asif type bowler.
i had a good laugh as any body bowlinga t 140 when he is 19 will surely be a
fats bowler when he build up and his bowling muscles get worked up
i had a good laugh as anybody who bowls

 

[manee]

i seen the video of the 79 speed test fully and each ball was measured
from the hand and it was not average speed they calculated but thefastest
delivery.also todays speed gun also record full delivery as the fastest so 79 is close to mordern speed guns

Where is your proof. My assumption comes from the generally accepted fact that this was the average speed. You will see this commonly held assumption on other forums such as cricketweb. You still haven't explored how 1975/6 came up with higher readings than those of 1979 if they used the same method.

also i want to point a fact that fast bowling muscles develop as you bowl
and build up you get more strength so as a 19 year old brett was toucking 148 km/hr so as with many bowlers they build up fully till 25-26 and get to their maximum speed.technique is important but shoulder strength is needed also and if you

I am aware of that. Muscle development is partially natural though and it is a fact that Brett Lee altered his action at the ages of 19 and 20 after a double stress fracture and this allowed him the ability to bowl 150kph+. Furthermore, it must be noted that when Lee and Akhtar hit 160kph, the speed gun readings were higher than normal due to high altitude in the South African conditions.

watch some interview with brett lee you will find how much he worked on his fitness to get to 150+ km/hr bowler i think this answers your question.

'Some interview?' can you be more specific. Anyway, I am not disputing that his fitness helped him substantially, but you said muscles develop as you bowl and there was a lot more bowling in the 1970s and 1980s than today.

when i first saw him he was raw but i knew the potential as he was atheletic
and has great lower body strength.so i always knew he would be a fast bowler,even waqar younis ,mohinder amarnath once commented on neo sports
during paksitan india series in india that
he was never going to be a fast bowler and was a asif type bowler.
i had a good laugh as any body bowlinga t 140 when he is 19 will surely be a
fats bowler when he build up and his bowling muscles get worked up

Why don't you make these predictions on planetcricket; if you are such a great judge of talent - prove it by picking out who you think is the next underrated fast bowler - nothing personal, but there is no reason to believe that anecdote. Moreover, there is no proof that Ishant will continue to bowl 145kph as the fatigue of bowling takes its toll on his muscles. Zaheer Khan, Ashish Nehra, Ajit Agarkar, Munaf Patel have all been timed at 145kph or more (well, Munaf was timed at 144.7kph) and none are quick bowlers now. Waqar and Amarnath were likely talking about what bowler he will endure the majority of his career as, not what he will become for the next couple of series. Javagal Srinath has been timed at 149.6 in the 1997/8 season and was alledgedly timed at 156kph against South Africa in 1996, but he is not regarded as a express fast bowler because Indian bowlers often slow down to adapt to the flacid pitches and hot conditions.

 

[Cricket_god]

Where is your proof. My assumption comes from the generally accepted fact that this was the average speed. You will see this commonly held assumption on other forums such as cricketweb. You still haven't explored how 1975/6 came up with higher readings than those of 1979 if they used the same method.


I am aware of that. Muscle development is partially natural though and it is a fact that Brett Lee altered his action at the ages of 19 and 20 after a double stress fracture and this allowed him the ability to bowl 150kph+. Furthermore, it must be noted that when Lee and Akhtar hit 160kph, the speed gun readings were higher than normal due to high altitude in the South African conditions.



'Some interview?' can you be more specific. Anyway, I am not disputing that his fitness helped him substantially, but you said muscles develop as you bowl and there was a lot more bowling in the 1970s and 1980s than today.



Why don't you make these predictions on planetcricket; if you are such a great judge of talent - prove it by picking out who you think is the next underrated fast bowler - nothing personal, but there is no reason to believe that anecdote. Moreover, there is no proof that Ishant will continue to bowl 145kph as the fatigue of bowling takes its toll on his muscles. Zaheer Khan, Ashish Nehra, Ajit Agarkar, Munaf Patel have all been timed at 145kph or more (well, Munaf was timed at 144.7kph) and none are quick bowlers now. Waqar and Amarnath were likely talking about what bowler he will endure the majority of his career as, not what he will become for the next couple of series. Javagal Srinath has been timed at 149.6 in the 1997/8 season and was alledgedly timed at 156kph against South Africa in 1996, but he is not regarded as a express fast bowler because Indian bowlers often slow down to adapt to the flacid pitches and hot conditions.

its a fact if you look at the whole video every ball was time in 79 and it was not average speed but speed of each ball and fastest was 147km/hr

any interview of him you read lee will tell you what levels of fitness trainmg he maintains.there is lot more bowling now adays as we play non stop.

atheletic ability and lowerbody strength separates ishant from the rest and he clocked 149 in tests and was consistently over 140
not for aseries as zaheer,nehra, did in south africa world cup in odis and as you say the speed readings were more there.
munaf was mishandeled by greg and ian frazer they destroyed pathan,
and munaf, its good that after they had gone sreesanth,r.p got back to their normal speed.ishant is also yet build up so wait the best is yet to come

 

[manee]

its a fact if you look at the whole video every ball was time in 79 and it was not average speed but speed of each ball and fastest was 147km/hr

Average speed through the air. Not average speed of deliveries.
Average speed through the air. Not average speed of deliveries.
Average speed through the air. Not average speed of deliveries.

any interview of him you read lee will tell you what levels of fitness trainmg he maintains.there is lot more bowling now adays as we play non stop.

In the 1970s and 1980s, international tours were longer with more tour fixtures and international players played a lot of domestic cricket - something done to a lesser extent these days with the advent of Central Contracts.

atheletic ability and lowerbody strength separates ishant from the rest and he clocked 149 in tests and was consistently over 140

Ishant has lower body strength, I am not disputing that. But Zaheer had upper body strength.

not for aseries as zaheer,nehra, did in south africa world cup in odis and as you say the speed readings were more there.

He also timed at 145kph in the Test series against New Zealand, but you have no reason to have to believe me as I cannot provide proof.

munaf was mishandeled by greg and ian frazer

How? Greg Chappell noted that Munaf Patel did not have the body for a 145kph career and told him to slow down, which he has. Perhaps he wasn't the best example, but it is an example of a lack of ability to sustain pace.

they destroyed pathan,

What did they do to him?!

sreesanth,r.p got back to their normal speed.ishant is also yet build up so wait the best is yet to come

RP Singh tops at 149kph in a T20 in South Africa - how is he going to bowl faster?

 

[Cricket_god]

Average speed through the air. Not average speed of deliveries.
Average speed through the air. Not average speed of deliveries.
Average speed through the air. Not average speed of deliveries.


In the 1970s and 1980s, international tours were longer with more tour fixtures and international players played a lot of domestic cricket - something done to a lesser extent these days with the advent of Central Contracts.



Ishant has lower body strength, I am not disputing that. But Zaheer had upper body strength.



He also timed at 145kph in the Test series against New Zealand, but you have no reason to have to believe me as I cannot provide proof.



How? Greg Chappell noted that Munaf Patel did not have the body for a 145kph career and told him to slow down, which he has. Perhaps he wasn't the best example, but it is an example of a lack of ability to sustain pace.



What did they do to him?!



RP Singh tops at 149kph in a T20 in South Africa - how is he going to bowl faster?

it can,t be average speed through the air

tours were longer but most were side games nothing like real international matches

zaheer had upperbody strength but he did not take care and got overweight
and we will played him even though he was injured

bowling once in 149 does not make him fast bowler you have to be consistent
over 138km/hr.

he had the body how did he bowl at that pace in his first class career.its confidence they destroyed his confidence.

pathan,sreesanth,r.p singh,v.r.v,munaf were yold to cut down on pace
and focus on line and length if you remmeber and ian frazer twaeked their actions so much that tehy became medium pacers.its only when prasad
came they got back to normal speed

r.p singh is still not consistently clocking 140+ he is 22 he will build up

 

[manee]

it can,t be average speed through the air

Why not?

tours were longer but most were side games nothing like real international matches

Side games?

zaheer had upperbody strength but he did not take care and got overweight
and we will played him even though he was injured

Who says Ishant won't be played when unfit.

bowling once in 149 does not make him fast bowler you have to be consistent
over 138km/hr.

More like over 145kph and you were the one trying to say RP Singh and Sreesanth are fast bowlers.

he had the body how did he bowl at that pace in his first class career.its confidence they destroyed his confidence.

Yes, but he got injured every 2 seconds, hence when I said 145kph career

pathan,sreesanth,r.p singh,v.r.v,munaf were yold to cut down on pace
and focus on line and length if you remmeber and ian frazer twaeked their actions so much that tehy became medium pacers.its only when prasad
came they got back to normal speed

Do you have proof that he altered their actions to make them medium pacers? No, because no biomechanist would teach an action which reduces pace.

 

[Cricket_god]

Why not?


Side games?

Who says Ishant won't be played when unfit.


More like over 145kph and you were the one trying to say RP Singh and Sreesanth are fast bowlers.


Yes, but he got injured every 2 seconds, hence when I said 145kph career



Do you have proof that he altered their actions to make them medium pacers? No, because no biomechanist would teach an action which reduces pace.

as it reads the speed from the hand if you see the video

zaheer got overwieght due to his own fault,its not to due with injury,i do
not see thant happenning with ishant atleast for 5-6 years

nehra was bowling fast for 1-2 series but r.p sreesanth have been bowling well over 140 for 2 years

he did not get injured till south africa,if you had watched some first class games or the games he played his first test agaisnt england,he was fast
you never lose pace its confidence ,greg and frazer wanted him to be mcgrath now look at him he is nobody.dhoni needs to bring him back to right track also i see as he got so much money he lacks that passion thats why i always will support sreesanth for the passion he brings.

why pathan lost his swing and speed,why munaf lost 10 km of pace.

biomechanist is useless as your natural bowling action is the best ian frazer
tried to get in to thier mind to bowl line and length thats the difference between prasad he has played cricket so he knows pace is important also.